Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Early Access Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Larianshill]

Pathfinder and retroclones are irrelevant here, because we're comparing 3.5 Monk to 5e Monk. Anyone who claims that 3.5 Monk is "top tier" and claims to be good at optimization is a know-nothing wannabe. Literal novels have been written on why Monk utterly fails as a class, and why did it need to be fixed in the latter interations. Entire novels also have been written on attempting to defend this abortion of design, relying on utter nonsense like "partially charged wands". None of it holds up to any amount of scrutiny, as even a cursory read of the linked thread proves.

 

[Grotesque]

Imagine how many tears will flow on the codex when this master piece will release.

When is this "master piece" coming out?

 

[Cryomancer]

Imagine how many tears will flow on the codex when this master piece will release.

When this """masterpiece""" comes out, everyone here, including the Larian fanboys would be prefering Solasta : Crown of the Magister, Pathfinder : Wrath of the righteous and Knights of the Chalice 2. And note that PF:WoTR got more money on KS than DOS2. A "boomer" power fantasy RPG got more money than your most famous game. Deal with it

 

[Poseidon00]

Oh, you are. Tell me, as a DnD build autist, are you familiar with JaronK's class tier list? It's a universally accepted amongst optimizers list that divides every base class into 6 categories, with tier 1 being the top tier, and tier 5 being the bottom one as far as classes anyone actually plays are concerned. Monk occupies the latter.
It's very adorable that monk can do jump kicks across the room at level 20, but that stopped being relevant quite a while ago - on level 20, casters have infinite clones on their private demiplanes. You're saying "can do more damage with his hands than just about anything in the game"? At level 5, Warshaper can kill anything in the game in one turn, as long as he can potentially hit the Armor Class. You're saying that monk can be a stealthy scout and a trapfinder? That role is made obsolete by some extremely basic spells. Monk has high attack bonus from all the spells that's been cast on him? That's great. Wizard could also use those spellslots on himself, and achieve far more than monk could ever do. Monk can trip? Horizon Walker can do it a thousand times better, without any spells whatsoever or a single magic item - or a single splatbook being used for character building.
You can give monk all the magic items and spells in the world, but in the end, it's like putting a lipstick on a pig.

It's not too late to apologize for claiming that I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Nah you still have no idea what you're talking about, as evidenced by you using someone else's words rather than your own lol. I can search the internet for things that support me too!

I just think it's funny that you asked me to engage specifically with your reasons why the monk sucks, I did by highlighting its many strengths that cause it to be a great defensive class with good utility, and then you resort to scouring the internet for a tier list that is "infallible" and "universally agreed upon", even as the thread it is in says it is bullshit tainting the forum.

 

[Larianshill]

I'm very sorry that your parents were related.

 

[Poseidon00]

I actually agree with the list- mostly -when it comes to the raw offensive power of a class. Nothing can compare to the kind of spells that a wizard can pull out of his ass and nothing can really argue that. If a wizard or cleric or druid has maximum preparation time and foreknowledge they can be more ready than anyone to handle a specific task.

But overreliance on spells means you are punished for mistakes moreso than any other class. And any good DM should be trying to find ways to punish you for mistakes. Getting dispelled, stumbling into an anti magic zone, simply getting ambushed at the wrong time, having your spell book stolen if you're not a sorcerer, your DM simply not giving you enough time to rest to have your spells ready for every encounter, having been misled into preparing for the wrong sort of encounter so your spells are useless. Pure casters are only perfect when played perfectly, which should never be the case in any sort of challenging environment that tries to make perfect difficult.

A monk can survive mistakes and situations where pure casters could not because it has so much innate survivability even without buffs and augmentations. Simple as.

 

[Salvo]

Imagine how many tears will flow on the codex when this master piece will release.

When this """masterpiece""" comes out, everyone here, including the Larian fanboys

Yeah, nah.

 

[Pink Eye]

I actually agree with the list- mostly -when it comes to the raw offensive power of a class. Nothing can compare to the kind of spells that a wizard can pull out of his ass and nothing can really argue that. If a wizard or cleric or druid has maximum preparation time and foreknowledge they can be more ready than anyone to handle a specific task.

But overreliance on spells means you are punished for mistakes moreso than any other class. And any good DM should be trying to find ways to punish you for mistakes. Getting dispelled, stumbling into an anti magic zone, simply getting ambushed at the wrong time, having your spell book stolen if you're not a sorcerer, your DM simply not giving you enough time to rest to have your spells ready for every encounter, having been misled into preparing for the wrong sort of encounter so your spells are useless. Pure casters are only perfect when played perfectly, which should never be the case in any sort of challenging environment that tries to make perfect difficult.

A monk can survive mistakes and situations where pure casters could not because it has so much innate survivability even without buffs and augmentations. Simple as.

Yeppers. A good designer will create situations where a spellcaster will be hard pressed to come up with a solution. For example, first encounter after you survive the prologue in Augury of Chaos - Chalice 2 module. Your equipment will be stolen and you'll be ambushed by slimes immediately after. No weapons, no armor, except for your bare fists. Spell casters will also have to be careful with how many spells they throw at the slimes, because there is no rest after the fight. You have to reserve spell slots for the other tough encounters looming ahead. A monk won't have any issues with this fight, as they're unarmed specialists; they don't need fancy equipment. Some proper positioning to get your monk to engage on the enemy to dissuade the slimes from rushing your back line - which is possible with innate bonuses to AC - other martial will have issues without their fancy armor. Then grapple and punch the slimes to death.

The main issues with monk that I've personally had on third edition was that they didn't get full BAB compared to other martials. Flurry of blows suffers heavy penalties at lower levels; doesn't really become useful till mid levels. Better off using standard attacks. This is fixed in Pathfinder's Unchained Monk version. On the matter of Amulet of Mighty Fists. It's *nice* to have, but it won't make or break your character. If you don't want to waste a necklace slot on it - don't. Monk gets innate damage bonuses to unarmed regardless. It's a good class, well, about as good any martial based class.

 

[Storyfag]

A good designer will create situations where a spellcaster will be hard pressed to come up with a solution. For example, first encounter after you survive the prologue in Augury of Chaos - Chalice 2 module. Your equipment will be stolen and you'll be ambushed by slimes immediately after. No weapons, no armor, except for your bare fists. Spell casters will also have to be careful with how many spells they throw at the slimes, because there is no rest after the fight. You have to reserve spell slots for the other tough encounters looming ahead. A monk won't have any issues with this fight, as they're unarmed specialists; they don't need fancy equipment.

Sorry, but a good designer will create situations that every class is capable of solving in a uniquely rewarding way. What you describe is a situation tailored for one class at the expense of others.

 

[Butter]

A good designer will create situations where a spellcaster will be hard pressed to come up with a solution. For example, first encounter after you survive the prologue in Augury of Chaos - Chalice 2 module. Your equipment will be stolen and you'll be ambushed by slimes immediately after. No weapons, no armor, except for your bare fists. Spell casters will also have to be careful with how many spells they throw at the slimes, because there is no rest after the fight. You have to reserve spell slots for the other tough encounters looming ahead. A monk won't have any issues with this fight, as they're unarmed specialists; they don't need fancy equipment.

Sorry, but a good designer will create situations that every class is capable of solving in a uniquely rewarding way. What you describe is a situation tailored for one class at the expense of others.

It's crazy to think that you might play with a party of characters that complement each other.

 

[Poseidon00]

It's crazy to think that you might play with a party of characters that complement each other.

Which, may I add, is one of the strengths of the monk. Easily buffed to the moon by party members even at low levels, and in turn can act as an early immovable physical tank with high AC and magical tank with a perfect set of saves, while keeping casters locked down with trip bullshit, stunning fist, etc. The monk also appreciates the support from more squishy, but more damaging classes.

 

[Cryomancer]

Sorry, but a good designer will create situations that every class is capable of solving in a uniquely rewarding way. What you describe is a situation tailored for one class at the expense of others.

And there are situations where spellcasters are in a disadvantage. For example? Enemies with high SR.

A Wizard still can be useful against a enemy with high SR, but he is far more useful buffing martial companions than trying to kill the enemy with high SR.

- Chalice 2 module. Your equipment will be stolen and you'll be ambushed by slimes immediately after. No weapons, no armor, except for your bare fists. Spell casters will also have to be careful with how many spells they throw at the slimes, because there is no rest after the fight

IThey took all eqquipment from martials, why they din't took spellbooks from spellcasters? or used magic locking gear on casters? You don't need to have a complex "shackles of spell failure' to put in a caster. If armor can give a lot of casting failure, forcing then to wear weight on his feet and arms can give like 80%+ spell failure. A Wizard without a spellbook can only cast what is on his mind and after casting, can't prepare more spells, doesn't matter how much time passes.

 

[Larianshill]

It's very sweet of you to expose how utterly retarded you are entirely on your own. Let's examine some of the most stupid things you've said.

I did by highlighting its many strengths that cause it to be a great defensive class with good utility

You've not highlighted a thing. Monk does not excel at a single thing - everything he does, someone else will do better, oftentimes in multiple fields. Yes, even doing damage in unarmed combat. Do you know what this class is, or would you like me to give you a hint?

and then you resort to scouring the internet for a tier list that is "infallible" and "universally agreed upon"

I did not scour the internet for it. I'm simply aware of it, because unlike you, I'm not full of hot air.

Getting dispelled

I'd like to note the irony of you jumping to magic as the first counter against magic you can think of.

stumbling into an anti magic zone

Didn't we establish that monk needs a shitload of buffs and magic items to function?

simply getting ambushed at the wrong time

If a caster got ambushed, he does not deserve to be called a caster. There is an unlimited number of ways a caster can pick his own battles. Would you like me to list them?

having your spell book stolen if you're not a sorcerer

I have no idea what a "spellbook" is. Because of Eidetic Spellcaster.

your DM simply not giving you enough time to rest to have your spells ready for every encounter

Do you know what a demiplane is? We are talking about high levels, aren't we. The ones where monk supposedly excels.

Pure casters are only perfect when played perfectly

It's actually "moderately intelligently". I understand why you're confused between the two.

it has so much innate survivability even without buffs and augmentations.

Citation needed.

 

[Pink Eye]

A good designer will create situations where a spellcaster will be hard pressed to come up with a solution. For example, first encounter after you survive the prologue in Augury of Chaos - Chalice 2 module. Your equipment will be stolen and you'll be ambushed by slimes immediately after. No weapons, no armor, except for your bare fists. Spell casters will also have to be careful with how many spells they throw at the slimes, because there is no rest after the fight. You have to reserve spell slots for the other tough encounters looming ahead. A monk won't have any issues with this fight, as they're unarmed specialists; they don't need fancy equipment.

Sorry, but a good designer will create situations that every class is capable of solving in a uniquely rewarding way. What you describe is a situation tailored for one class at the expense of others.

Yes. Knights of the Chalice is party based game. Each class should serve the needs of the party. You have six slots to create whatever party you want. If you create a useless one with no martial character to compliment the needs of your spell casters early game - then that's your fault.

 

[Storyfag]

A good designer will create situations where a spellcaster will be hard pressed to come up with a solution. For example, first encounter after you survive the prologue in Augury of Chaos - Chalice 2 module. Your equipment will be stolen and you'll be ambushed by slimes immediately after. No weapons, no armor, except for your bare fists. Spell casters will also have to be careful with how many spells they throw at the slimes, because there is no rest after the fight. You have to reserve spell slots for the other tough encounters looming ahead. A monk won't have any issues with this fight, as they're unarmed specialists; they don't need fancy equipment.

Sorry, but a good designer will create situations that every class is capable of solving in a uniquely rewarding way. What you describe is a situation tailored for one class at the expense of others.

Yes. Knights of the Chalice is party based game. Each class should serve the needs of the party. You have six slots to create whatever party you want. If you create a useless one with no martial character to compliment the needs of your spell casters early game - then that's your fault.

Ah, but most martial classes should be useless without their gear, which you mentioned is stolen. This results in the party being gimped unless it specifically has a Monk, as opposed to Fighters, Rangers or Paladins, no?

 

[Pink Eye]

Sorry, but a good designer will create situations that every class is capable of solving in a uniquely rewarding way. What you describe is a situation tailored for one class at the expense of others.

And there are situations where spellcasters are in a disadvantage. For example? Enemies with high SR.

A Wizard still can be useful against a enemy with high SR, but he is far more useful buffing martial companions than trying to kill the enemy with high SR.

- Chalice 2 module. Your equipment will be stolen and you'll be ambushed by slimes immediately after. No weapons, no armor, except for your bare fists. Spell casters will also have to be careful with how many spells they throw at the slimes, because there is no rest after the fight

IThey took all eqquipment from martials, why they din't took spellbooks from spellcasters? or used magic locking gear on casters? You don't need to have a complex "shackles of spell failure' to put in a caster. If armor can give a lot of casting failure, forcing then to wear weight on his feet and arms can give like 80%+ spell failure. A Wizard without a spellbook can only cast what is on his mind and after casting, can't prepare more spells, doesn't matter how much time passes.

Magic works differently in Chalice. You don't need a spellbook. You memorize spells after rest.

 

[Pink Eye]

>This results in the party being gimped unless it specifically has a Monk
I guess all of your non monk players are going to have to get dirty with those slimes. Hope you created a fighter with a race that gets bonuses to grapple. You don't want those slimes to bum rush your precious spell casters.

 

[Poseidon00]

Ah, but most martial classes should be useless without their gear, which you mentioned is stolen. This results in the party being gimped unless it specifically has a Monk, as opposed to Fighters, Rangers or Paladins, no?

Only ones hurting in that situation are rogues and spellcasters tbh, and spellcasters can overcome by spending limited resources and rogues can stealth. Fighters can bare hand a slime if need be unless they get unlucky or you have bad stats.

 

[Pink Eye]

Fighter can bare hand with adequate STR bonuses. Take the unarmed feat too. But you'll be wasting a feat to get good at unarmed. Yet. Why do that when you already have a class that is specialized into that specific niche. Monk is capable of dishing out more attacks - up to eight attacks per round with flurry of blows - than most other classes. All of that damage adds up. They also get bonuses to speed. Pair that with Abundant Step, and you'll be able to jump onto an unsuspecting enemy spell caster. Shutting them down before they can get their stupid spells off.

The notion that monk is weak is pretty fucking retarded.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

monks were a mistake and gygax was going to remove them in 2E

 

[Pink Eye]

monks were a mistake and gygax was going to remove them in 2E

American Exceptionalism.

 

[The_Mask]

I like how we're so bored of this game, that it's not even out and we're talking about other games that are better.

 

[Larianshill]

There's nothing to talk about yet. Everything has already been discussed. The most intriguing questions right now are "When is the next patch" and "Will Larian listen to this bit of feedback or not". I can talk about Reactions again, if you'd like, it's my favourite subject.

 

[Pink Eye]

>I can talk about Reactions again
I think the Reactions in Colony Ship are pretty cool. They're basically like Attacks of Opportunity.

 

[Larianshill]

Surrounded by the enemy from all sides, and with no signs of support from the HQ, the brave soldier kept fighting no matter what.