Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Early Access Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Gnomes and ogres aren't equally strong even with completely equal stats, because carrying capacity and the ability to shove, push and grapple depend on your size. This means that Gauntlets of Ogre Power don't actually make you as strong as an ogre, unless you're also as big as an ogre.

writing to wotc right now to fix this racist oversight

 

[Bara]

I will never get tired of that picture. B4 The Lost City is a great adventure and fits like a glove in the Sind region of Mystara.

 

[Harthwain]

Yeah, "genetically predisposed" is not a word combination or a concept in general I'd use. Not only because it's severely race realism-y, especially in conjunction with the non-physical stats, but also because it leads to monolithic race cultures in-game, and that's a big no-no for me

Your physical state is tied to your race though. Does it mean you can't have an intelligent Dwarf-mage? No, but such individuals are understandably the outliers as they go against their natural predispositions.

It also makes sense in the context of what races do. A race of miners wouldn't benefit from being tall, but they benefit from being tough. A race that lives in a perpetual state of war is obviously going to have more aggressive disposition and be as strong and tall as possible, because large muscles let you kill things easier and faster, which ensures your own survival (and it can be intimidating, which also helps in various areas).

 

[Lacrymas]

Sure, but having large muscles is different than "genetically predisposed" to war or being miners, or whatever. This goes double for non-physical stats which are even more complicated when in the context of genetics. Dwarves not being "genetically predisposed" to be intelligent and so dwarf wizards are rare is an absurd statement.

 

[Thac0]

Sure, but having large muscles is different than "genetically predisposed" to war or being miners, or whatever. This goes double for non-physical stats which are even more complicated when in the context of genetics. Dwarves not being "genetically predisposed" to be intelligent and so dwarf wizards are rare is an absurd statement.

No, you fall into the trap of thinking of fantasy species as human ethnicities. I.e. orks are niggers, gnomes are jews, dwarfs are scottish and humans are normal Whites.
Fantasy races are different species however. A crow is more disposed towards being intelligent than a dove, and certainly more intelligent than a dog. An eagle is stronger than a crow however.

Biologically speaking, it is the scientific consensus that all living humans belong to the same subspecies, homo sapiens sapiens.
Fantasy races ring from differing subspecies up to entirely different races, which means differing abilities among them is absolutely fine from a racism perspective.

What annoys me about 5e racial abilities is, that a difference in ability score modificator has its significance enhanced thousandfold by bounded accuracy and scarcety of ways to counteract a low ability modifier. This is coupled with the effect that 5e expects player deaths to be rare, and rerolling to be infrequent.
That said, thinking about it there is a much simpler solution to my problem apart from decoupling accuracy from ability score (which I still think would be a good thing to try): Allow races without a boost in an ability score to buy the 16th point in point buy at a cost of 3 stat points.
It would mean that a dwarven wizard can start with 16 intelligence and not be gimped on all things he does, but he has to pay with a large price in his other attributes.

 

[Lacrymas]

No, you fall into the trap of thinking off fantasy species as human ethnicities. I.e. orks are niggers, gnomes are jews, dwarfs are scottish and humans are normal Whites.
Fantasy races are different species however. A crow is more disposed towards being intelligent than a dove, and certainly more intelligent than a dog. An eagle is stronger than a crow however.

Biologically speaking, it is the scientific consensus that all living humans belong to the same subspecies, homo sapiens sapiens.
Fantasy races ring from differing subspecies up to entirely different races, which means differing abilities among them is absolutely fine from a racism perspective.

But I am not falling into that trap. There is no such thing as being genetically predisposed to war or being miners, genetics simply don't work that way. On top of that, it's scarily close to genetically predisposed to being slaves. That's bad regardless of whether we make real life analogies or not, especially because real life analogies will be made regardless. When we are talking about human-adjacent capabilities of consciousness, the problem with genetic intelligence and what that would lead to in terms of culture becomes even more complicated and messy. I am also saying this from WotC's perspective, they will never write something like this for any of the races because of the implications. I also don't want them to because, like I said, it leads to monolithic race cultures and we've had enough of those already. I'm not against having different stats for races, just no race realism terminology and genetics-based monolithic cultures.

 

[Thac0]

There is no such thing as being genetically predisposed to war or being miners

There is tho. Have you had different dog breeds before?
Water rescue breeds can swim months after being born, without anyone ever teaching them. And they have a longing for the sea, you have to watch out or they dash into every lake and river they can find.
Hunting breeds have a ridiculously high hunting drive, if they see a rabbit or even just find a trail you gotta hold on tight.
Herding breeds make good family dogs, specifically because they have a herding instinct.
Combat breeds WILL start shit over every simple thing, and it is completely reasonable that they are treated by the law differently than other breeds.
All this is in the genus canine, and if your world carries the potential for humanoid races of differing subspecies they can absolutely be predisposed for war and mining without cultural programming.

they will never write something like this for any of the races because of the implications.

This is true tho. The topic has become a bit spicy lately, and Wizards is one of the most PC companies around.

 

[Lacrymas]

Having abilities that make you suited to certain tasks =/= genetically predisposed to doing those things. I can have a humongous cock, but that doesn't mean I want to do porn. Genetically predisposed in this context means that you are biologically driven to wage war or be a miner, up-to and including being a slave. What professions are humans biologically predisposed to doing? The thought alone is absurd.

 

[NJClaw]

There is no such thing as being genetically predisposed to war or being miners, genetics simply don't work that way.

But you can't confuse IRL genetics with D&D genetics, they're not the same thing. Dwarves have no bonus to Intelligence not because they're dumb, but because they're not predisposed to use arcane magic and that's the stat that governs arcane magic. If you want to have races with stats adjustments there's no way to go around this in D&D because the only solution is to decouple parameters like "magical attack", "physical attack, "magical defense", and "physical defense" from the six standard abilities, and that's something that will never happen because the six standard abilities probably are the only sacred thing in this game. You can no longer have D&D without Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha, and, consequently, their meanings.

Fantasy worlds have stronger ways to influence races than mere genetics. Gods are real and influence their people, legends and myths are real, magic is a tangible thing. Obviously it all depends on the specific setting, but you can't forget that this is a product that needs to be sold and in the minds of most players certain mental associations are absolutely fundamental to link D&D to a certain type of narrative, so you can't expect WotC to ignore those associations.

 

[Thac0]

Having abilities that make you suited to certain tasks =/= genetically predisposed to doing those things. I can have a humongous cock, but that doesn't mean I want to do porn. Genetically predisposed in this context means that you are biologically driven to wage war or be a miner, up-to and including being a slave. What professions are humans biologically predisposed to doing? The thought alone is absurd.

Aaaand you fell into the trap. All humans are a single subspecies. We are all inclined to the same stuff, ie shy away from most direct confrontation against stronger animals, and utilise our strengths in enorme intelligence and hands optimised for tool use. Humans are genetically predisposed towards all professions BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL HUMAN PROFESSIONS.

If you were to compare humans to a different race, ie tigers, you would see that they are predisposed for tasks we are not.

Sadly there are not really any other human subspecies around, except maybe a few Neanderthals. From those you can see that they are predisposed towards greater physical prowess, and programming Grimoire, Heralds of the Winged Exemplar.

 

[Lacrymas]

BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL HUMAN PROFESSIONS.

But in the context of different races, they will be general professions. How is mining a dwarf profession? That's obviously insanity. Each race would need as broad a spectrum of professions as humans, even if they don't 100% overlap. You can't compare humans to animals in this context, especially because it implies D&D races other than humans are like animals and will have more in common with irl animals than irl humans.

But you can't confuse IRL genetics with D&D genetics, they're not the same thing. Dwarves have no bonus to Intelligence not because they're dumb, but because they're not predisposed to use arcane magic and that's the stat that governs arcane magic. If you want to have races with stats adjustments there's no way to go around this in D&D because the only solution is to decouple parameters like "magical attack", "physical attack, "magical defense", and "physical defense" from the six standard abilities, and that's something that will never happen because the six standard abilities probably are the only sacred thing in this game. You can no longer have D&D without Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha, and, consequently, their meanings.

Fantasy worlds have stronger ways to influence races than mere genetics. Gods are real and influence their people, legends and myths are real, magic is a tangible thing. Obviously it al depends on the specific setting, but you can't forget that this is a product that needs to be sold and in the minds of most players certain mental associations are absolutely fundamental to link D&D to a certain type of narrative, so you can't expect WotC to ignore those associations.

The dissonance between the expectation of how certain fantasy races behave as a whole and the desire to not go into race realism is very pronounced, though. They have already gone away from this with Tasha, though, so yeah.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

They have already gone away from this with Tasha

Who dis

How is mining a dwarf profession?

Cartels, unions and guilds.

 

[Lacrymas]

They have already gone away from this with Tasha

Who dis

The reason we are talking about this in the first place? ;d In Tasha's Cauldron of Everything (the new D&D splatbook), there's a rule for creating custom ancestries and you can have a dwarf with +2 to INT and DEX if you want.

 

[NJClaw]

They have already gone away from this with Tasha

Who dis

Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, the handbook that introduced this rule:

 

[Thac0]

because it implies D&D races other than humans are like animals and will have more in common with irl animals than irl humans.

You still don't get it. Genetically the difference between a human and a nonhuman in Fantasy is as large as the difference between a human and an animal. It is a different genus. For some it is maybe a different species, but most are clearly a different genus.
There is no equivalent to it in the human world, because fantasy worlds do not exist. But if you want to imagine a proper fantasy race, you try to think of a race that has as many difference with humans as tigers have with humans, while still being a superpredator and capable of forming a civilisation.
That is why I dislike settings with too many races, they always fuck this up.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

They have already gone away from this with Tasha

Who dis

Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, the handbook that introduced this rule:

Man that is some weak ass shit.

 

[Lacrymas]

You still don't get it. Genetically the difference between a human and a nonhuman in Fantasy is as large as the difference between a human and an animal. It is a different genus. For some it is maybe a different species, but most are clearly a different genus.
There is no equivalent to it in the human world, because fantasy worlds do not exist. But if you want to imagine a proper fantasy race, you try to think of a race that has as many difference with humans as tigers have with humans, while still being a superpredator and capable of forming a civilisation.
That is why I dislike settings with too many races, they always fuck this up.

The problem is the level of consciousness, not whether they are superpredators. Yes, you can have a furry race of tigers who eat only meat for example, but that still wouldn't change the fact they are human-adjacent in their thought processes and abilities. I'd say a good example is my own orcs in my setting - they aren't numerous because they need human women to reproduce, so they turn to necromancy as a civilization to compensate. That doesn't mean they are "genetically predisposed" to necromancy and it doesn't mean there isn't an endless variety of individuals within that society who can influence their culture in different ways outside of necromancy. Like I said, when you are dealing with intelligence levels which are human-adjacent, that overrides anything else and you can't compare them to how an animal would act.

 

[NJClaw]

How is mining a dwarf profession?

Mining is a dwarf profession because the word "mine" appears 3 times in the pages that describe the dwarven race and zero times in the pages that describe the human race. It's as easy as that.

Dwarves live in mines and caves, their legends say they came from the stone, half their gods have something to do with stone, gems, mines, and earth.

You can accept that a church can choose who has the right to reproduce and who doesn't, but can't fathom why a race that claims to be literally born from stone might be more inclined towards mining?

 

[Lacrymas]

How is mining a dwarf profession?

Mining is a dwarf profession because the word "mine" appears 3 times in the pages that describe the dwarven race and zero times in the pages that describe the human race. It's as easy as that.

Dwarves live in mines and caves, their legends say they came from the stone, half their gods have something to do with stone, gems, mines, and earth.

You can accept that a church can choose who has the right to reproduce and who doesn't, but can't fathom why a race that claims to be literally born from stone might be more inclined towards mining?

That is cultural inclination, not a genetic one.

 

[Thac0]

Yes, you can have a furry race of tigers

Are you born without the ability to seperate example from concrete statement?
The point is not that that fantasy races should literally be tigers, the point is that the genetical difference is two categories greater than you think off.
Also I am not reading that shit about your rape and dick mutiliation fetish made a setting.

 

[Lacrymas]

Give me a concrete example you think would be appropriate in this context then.

 

[Harthwain]

Give me a concrete example you think would be appropriate in this context then.

Humans vs Klingons (Star Trek: The Next Generation)? Similarly to Space Marines, every Klingon has redundant organs and rapid metabolism, making them every difficult to kill (in theory).

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Give me a concrete example you think would be appropriate in this context then.

Do you really want to press the point that a race of squat, powerfully built, hardy human adjacent species- whose physical characteristics, which are undeniably caused by their genetics, which renders them uniquely suited for mining, on account of being squat, hardy and powerfully built- are not predisposed by their genetics towards extraction of minerals from subterranean environments?

 

[Hace El Oso]

That is cultural inclination, not a genetic one.

But they are physically adapted to the environment. They’re compact, very strong, prolonged confinement underground does not trouble them, they are resistant to magic (one could expect to encounter more magic in the underdark than in the surface).

 

[Lacrymas]

Give me a concrete example you think would be appropriate in this context then.

Humans vs Klingons (Star Trek: The Next Generation)? Similarly to Space Marines, every Klingon has redundant organs and rapid metabolism, making them every difficult to kill (in theory).

Give me a concrete example you think would be appropriate in this context then.

Do you really want to press the point that a race of squat, powerfully built, hardy human adjacent species- whose physical characteristics, which are undeniably caused by their genetics, which renders them uniquely suited for mining, on account of being squat, hardy and powerfully built- are not predisposed by their genetics towards extraction of minerals from subterranean environments?

That is cultural inclination, not a genetic one.

But they are physically adapted to the environment. They’re compact, very strong, prolonged confinement underground does not trouble them, they are resistant to magic (one could expect to encounter more magic in the underdark than in the surface).

See my big cock =/= desire to do porn post.