Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Early Access Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Thac0]

This "raise only your main attribute" thing is a problem with at least AD&D, though. This is what Sawyer tried to remedy but wasn't particularly successful at.

But that is because Sawyer is a hack and tried to make all attributes usefull for all classes. He went one step too far, he realised that it is a bit boring that rogues have to raise dex whenever they can and fighters always str, but his solution was to make int as good for them as dex and str.
Martial attributes should still be better than mental attributes for martial classes, and there should still be a mainstat which gives each class the greatest benefit. It should just not be mandatory through bounded accuracy to have that main stat as high as possible all the time.
2E/3E was actually better at this than 5e, due to the large influx of items that set your stats to a fixed value and great sources for to hit modifiers beyond the attibute even characters with shite attributes could perform well in a role they weren't made for. The squished bonusses you got in 2E also helped. Khalid is completely useable as a fighter despite having only 15 str, while he would be shit in 5e.

 

[Yosharian]

15 STR doesn't make your 5E fighter 'shit' that's ridiculous.

 

[Larianshill]

while he would be shit in 5e.

I don't think that's a fair assessment. Worse - yes, but not shit. 15 is enough to give you +2 bonus, and enough to wear heavy armor without penalties. I've personally played a paladin with Str of 15, and it was alright.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

speaking of which, can't wait to make an eldritch knight using the warped headband of intellect

 

[Larianshill]

speaking of which, can't wait to make an eldritch knight using the warped headband of intellect

This actually brings up a great question - will there be attunements in BG3? There aren't any now.

 

[Lacrymas]

But that is because Sawyer is a hack and tried to make all attributes usefull for all classes. He went one step too far, he realised that it is a bit boring that rogues have to raise dex whenever they can and fighters always str, but his solution was to make int as good for them as dex and str.
Martial attributes should still be better than mental attributes for martial classes, and there should still be a mainstat which gives each class the greatest benefit. It should just not be mandatory through bounded accuracy to have that main stat as high as possible all the time.
2E/3E was actually better at this than 5e, due to the large influx of items that set your stats to a fixed value and great sources for to hit modifiers beyond the attibute even characters with shite attributes could perform well in a role they weren't made for. The squished bonusses you got in 2E also helped. Khalid is completely useable as a fighter despite having only 15 str, while he would be shit in 5e.

But Khalid is a useful fighter in the sense you can turn him into an archer, his 15 STR is actually a liability and he pales in comparison to any other fighter in the game in the melee department. Extremely high STR gives disproportionately huge bonuses compared to any other stat, so this makes Khalid even worse. If we don't remove attributes in general and have other ways to build a character, I'd make each race have a different starting set of attributes which can be tuned in some other ways, like class choice, and then find a way to rework the attributes so they aren't as bullshit as in 5E. For example, let's say orcs always start with 16 STR and you get to 18 when you pick a Barbarian. That 18 STR allows the character to get Whirlwind attack somewhere down the line. So, in essence, only an orc fighter/barbarian can perform Whirlwind attacks.

 

[Yosharian]

Your 15 STR fighter has 1 less point of damage and to-hit than a 16 STR one, that doesn't make him/her 'shit'. It's a penalty for sure, but no need to be hyperbolic.

Usually the choices a player makes in battle are far more impactful than having that extra +1 to hit anyway.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

the reason non-optimal characters seem 'trash' is because they're always compared to custom characters you can easily min/max
very few people would build a character like Khalid but his attributes are just part of his character/story. It makes him more interesting, he's by all means a coward but still tries to do good.

If Khalid was some min/maxed high-str fighter it wouldn't fit his personality and it would be a less interesting character.

 

[Thac0]

But Khalid is a useful fighter in the sense you can turn him into an archer, his 15 STR is actually a liability and he pales in comparison to any other fighter in the game in the melee department. Extremely high STR gives disproportionately huge bonuses compared to any other stat, so this makes Khalid even worse. If we don't remove attributes in general and have other ways to build a character, I'd make each race have a different starting set of attributes which can be tuned in some other ways, like class choice, and then find a way to rework the attributes so they aren't as bullshit as in 5E.

You have mass 18/00 str spells, tons of gauntlets of strength and stuff. With magical gear being less rare than in 5e, and spells being able to do more whacky stuff and shake at the foundations off the game a bit more his sucky stats do not matter as much.
I used both Khalid and Jaheira on my run, since I am not a monster to seperate them, and Khalid held his weight most of the time.
But even compared to a fighter with a flat 18, Khalid is only +1 Thac0 and 2 damage behind. Without bounded AC that is miles less than a 15 in 5e is behind a 16. BG just gives you a ton of really ridiculous fighters with high 18/XX rolls.

 

[Larianshill]

Hold on, I think I've lost the plot. Why stats mattering is bad?

 

[Yosharian]

Yes but even if we are looking purely at mechanical advantages the races that cannot achieve 16 STR could easily have some other useful abilities that make up for it.

For example Gnomes have

Gnome Cunning. You have advantage on all Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma saves against magic.

I would make a Gnome barbarian in a heartbeat. Very fun character to role-play, and mechanically that advantage on saves is guaranteed to be very useful in at least a few key fights during his career.

But nooo some people will cry about not being able to get 16 STR.

 

[Butter]

Hold on, I think I've lost the plot. Why stats mattering is bad?

Stats are racist and they prevent me roleplaying my character who's good at everything.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Your 15 STR fighter has 1 less point of damage and to-hit than a 16 STR one, that doesn't make him/her 'shit'. It's a penalty for sure, but no need to be hyperbolic.

Usually the choices a player makes in battle are far more impactful than having that extra +1 to hit anyway.

2e attributes can't be directly translated to 5e you dip
his str would be way lower

 

[Larianshill]

Please don't put such outrageous statements into Thac0's mouth.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Hold on, I think I've lost the plot. Why stats mattering is bad?

Stats are racist and they prevent me roleplaying my character who's good at everything.

if you don't think gnomes and ogres are equally strong you are literally hitler

 

[Yosharian]

Hold on, I think I've lost the plot. Why stats mattering is bad?

Stats are racist and they prevent me roleplaying my character who's good at everything.

if you don't think gnomes and ogres are equally strong you are literally hitler

I think gnomes are, on average, smarter than ogres.

 

[Larianshill]

if you don't think gnomes and ogres are equally strong you are literally hitler

Gnomes and ogres aren't equally strong even with completely equal stats, because carrying capacity and the ability to shove, push and grapple depend on your size. This means that Gauntlets of Ogre Power don't actually make you as strong as an ogre, unless you're also as big as an ogre.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

if you don't think gnomes and ogres are equally strong you are literally hitler

Gnomes and ogres aren't equally strong even with completely equal stats, because carrying capacity and the ability to shove, push and grapple depend on your size. This means that Gauntlets of Ogre Power don't actually make you as strong as an ogre.

writing to wotc right now to fix this racist oversight

 

[Poseidon00]

the reason non-optimal characters seem 'trash' is because they're always compared to custom characters you can easily min/max
very few people would build a character like Khalid but his attributes are just part of his character/story. It makes him more interesting, he's by all means a coward but still tries to do good.

If Khalid was some min/maxed high-str fighter it wouldn't fit his personality and it would be a less interesting character.

You would be lucky to have Khalid's stats in PnP and would really try to keep that character alive.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

the reason non-optimal characters seem 'trash' is because they're always compared to custom characters you can easily min/max
very few people would build a character like Khalid but his attributes are just part of his character/story. It makes him more interesting, he's by all means a coward but still tries to do good.

If Khalid was some min/maxed high-str fighter it wouldn't fit his personality and it would be a less interesting character.

You would be lucky to have Khalid's stats in PnP and would really try to keep that character alive.

But it's not pnp.
People expect every companion to be completely min/maxed and it's boring. Why even play an RPG at that point? Just go play an action game or something

 

[His Dudeness]

BioWare was right to bar Dwarves from being mages.

In 5E, dwarves make interesting wizards thanks to their racial armor proficiency. You can go around in medium armor throwing fireballs.

The problem is they do not get an onborn bump to intelligence. This means in point buy and stat allocation systems you start the game with a +2 in a main stat, not a +3. A trendemous disadvantage, I don't think its worth the extra AC. Maybe with Hill Dwarf for the extra hp.

Wow, how did I miss such a racist post. Thankfully, Tasha came and now you can make a dwarf with +2 Intelligence and +2 Constitution. We can only hope Larian will open their eyes to the truth and update their outdated stats distribution system.

Bow to the master race of the mountain dwarf.

I really like the minmax forums take on Tasha:
http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=19408.0

I am not as negative as them about it, but Lacrymas is right, Tasha custom lineage is a car crash.
If the game expects you to have +5 to hit at level 1, just give everyone +5 to hit at level 1. Bounded accuracy means races without a boost to a starting attribute of the class mainstat suck, but the current races are designed around their stat limitations in combination with their abilities.
6e needs races which only give abilities like darkvision/poison resist/orcish resilience/charm resistance etc, no longer attribute boosts, if they really want to keep going down this path.

About those forums posts specifically:

I can't believe the solution is going back to how things used to be (BECMI/AD&D) where stats have much less weight and the attribute generation system guarantees that almost everyone will be average, meaning class to hit advancement tables and magic weapons are what matter.

This is a AD&D 2e strength table:

Only 4.62% of all characters will have a strength equal to or higher than 16, which is where the bonus starts.

Like holy shit those people will tear down anything TSR related while not realizing the solution was there all along.

 

[Cryomancer]

nooo ogres can't be stronger than gnomes they are EQUAL

Everyone is equal and at same time wonderful!!!

cringe power-fetishism over being a lich.

I prefer vampirism over lichdoom. However, there are no RPG which allow you to become a lich since Might & Magic VII - Day of the Destroyer.

"genetically predisposed" is not a word combination or a concept in general I'd use. Not only because it's severely race realism-y, especially in conjunction with the non-physical stats,

What? In D&D, is not only genetics which influence the races. Law/Chaos, Good/Evil are not only mere concepts, are forces and someone who grew up in the Abyss will be influentied by the Abyssal energies and have a strong tendencies towards chaotic evilness.

Among the fiends of lower planes, demons and devils aren't that different as species, but since one sides with law and other with chaos, both end up being completely different. And we aren't talking about IRL human races, we are talking about different species in a fictional fantasy world. A gnome and a orc can't reproduce and are different species.

 

[jackofshadows]

there are no RPG which allow you to become a lich since Might & Magic VII - Day of the Destroyer.

Go play IX chapter, don't embarass yourself.

A gnome and a orc can't reproduce

Why are you so sure?

 

[The_Mask]

I prefer vampirism over lichdoom.

I was gonna brofist you, but then you spelt lichdom wrong. >.>

 

[Thonius]

5e is

Spoiler

trash

I hope this clears some things up

It's bad for CRPG, level-ups feel empty among other things.