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Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Early Access Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

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Codex Year of the Donut
I don't want developers to communicate with the unwashed masses. Have you ever seen democracy in action? The result isn't pretty.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Because Larian is just THAT bad with their communication skills.[/spoiler]

Yeah, Tuc, you've been a useful Virgil through this Hell. Particularly appreciated the little movie montage thingie. Not above a little choose-your-own adventure so good motivation to actually play this thing some day.

- the people who were playing and testing your game get the clear impression that whatever they kept suggesting for the past nine months has been consistently ignored, if not even looked down with contempt.

EDIT - That said, in all fairness long-ass slow-paced RPG aren't particularly streaming-friendly in general.
And it gets even worse when they are not fully voiced the the poor bastard playing has to read everything aloud for his audience. But that's not BG3's case here.

Well, you know, the Belge. The Murkan Empire put your capital there for a reason. If you want to stop something (WWIII, meaningful competition) from happening put the Belge in charge.

On the other hand Magritte so mixed bag.

I mean I even upgraded my system to play it and was enjoying it well enough - Fort Joy was fun the first five times through so why not a sixth - but got sidetracked on something (Wiz8 mods? they're good). I'm sure I'll pick it back up again when they get around to another update.

Can't imagine a Streamer reading text aloud - just talk about what it means and why you're doing what you're doing so people can follow along.
 

Shrimp

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My hypothesis is that Larian actually got way more feedback than they ever expected - they sold way more than expected in the EA (something like 1 million copies in the 1st weeks) - and thus were never properly set-up to parse through OR action feedback adequately.


As someone who has done market research as a part of my job, just analyzing the shit a 20 person focus group takes quite a bit of man hours. The amount of input that Larian must have received through their in-game tracking data, the feedback system, and the essays people wrote online was probably absurd. Also, the latter two (forums and feedback forms) are completely free-form and not set-up in any way to easily let them extract focused information. This is probably why in the first couple of updates, all Larian talked about in terms of mechanical feedback were information gleamed from their in-game tracking tools - because that was the easy stuff. Bug fixes are also relatively easy (no analysis or debate really needed), which is why we see that implemented way faster.

Not excusing Larian here of course - the feedback systems were ultimately set-up by them, and this might show their lack of experience dealing this and the troubles of scaling to an AAA company and trying to keep their previous feedback approach.


In terms of actually implementing feedback, Larian's rapid expansion probably hurt it there too. Bureaucracy is inescapable in large companies, especially one that is expanding so rapidly. There's probably a department for everything now, and implementing any major mechanical feedback probably involves multiple meetings with multiple departments, with the feedback team needing to convince a bunch of people with fancy titles why their idea sucks and need to change. I.e., most mechanical complaints like high-ground advantage is probably pretty easy to code in, but the difficulty part is selling that to the mechanics team, and likely also the encounter-design team as they will probably have to adjust a whole bunch of stuff they've already done. Knowing how most meetings go, they probably often talk around in circles for hours without coming to any productive resolutions.


The lack of communication is a bit baffling to me - seeing as even more frequent, non-committal updates like "hey guys, we're working on X and Y this month", would appease the more vocal parts of the community. I must assume they probably just ran the math and said "fuck it".

1) Anyone who's desperate for an update have already purchased the game
2) It's a minority - of the 1 mill + EA players, most simply played and moved on. If you look at the various forums and reddit, there's maybe 1000-ish people actively, constantly discussing the game? Even adding a factor of 10 to be safe, these 10,000 customers is just 1% of the people who have already purchased the game
3) Within this group of "update seekers", most of them are already firmly in one camp of another of "Larian can do no wrong" or "Larian BAADDD"


There's a reason why most the EA process is far less common with AAA games. I get why Larian went for it - as a standalone studio it's very nice to get an early cash injection during development cycles, and it can be both a good marketing and market research tool. But in this case, I suspect they were woefully equipped to handle the process simply due to the unexpected scale.
Sounds plausible, but I'm not quite buying this idea.
The early access period of their previous games was also full of silence in response to feedback. They did release some update videos but I'm more inclined to attribute this to the games being Kickstarter funded as opposed to being financed by their own (and WOTC's) pockets. There was little to no response to the grievances people had with the game during its early access state and feedback was for the most part ignored in favour of their own ideas and visions. Basically the exact same thing we're seeing now.

I know the COVID pandemic shook things up for game development studios all around the world, but for what it's worth I definitely think Larian announced and released a playable version of BG3 a bit too soon.
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
The early access period of their previous games was also full of silence in response to feedback. They did release some update videos but I'm more inclined to attribute this to the games being Kickstarter funded as opposed to being financed by their own (and WOTC's) pockets. There was little to no response to the grievances people had with the game during its early access state and feedback was for the most part ignored in favour of their own ideas and visions. Basically the exact same thing we're seeing now.
this is fake news, they use it for analytics

which is vastly better than listening to the opinions of random retards
 
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Can't imagine a Streamer reading text aloud - just talk about what it means and why you're doing what you're doing so people can follow along.
Well, I wasn't saying it as a random guess. I've seen people trying this shit in the past few years.
It always starts with the cheerful, jolly streamer telling to his/her audience "WE ARE PLAYING THIS AWESOME RPG! So, SO AWESOME! Hehe, you can't imagine how awesome it is!"
...and then fifteen minutes into the gaming session, while reading every single line aloud, you star feeling the tiredness and exasperation in their voice as they begin to realize what they got into, exactly.
The day after (or two days later if they are incredibly stubborn) they dropped the game and moved to something else that doesn't consume their vocal cords.
If he choses to NOT read aloud? even worse. He spends minute glaring at the screen with dead eyes while reading in silence and the audience starts to complain that it's boring to watch and leave the channel.

Incidentally the day I started to notice this trend is when I realized that all that old school whine about "voicing dialogues being a waste of money" is tragically outdated.
These days it's something expected as a baseline. And frankly unless your game bombs for plenty of other reasons it's something basically that repays itself, for how it expands your user base.

I don't want developers to communicate with the unwashed masses. Have you ever seen democracy in action? The result isn't pretty.
YOU are the tragic result of democracy in action, Rusty.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Yeah, I think that’s why you owe it to your audience to plan ahead and summarize. I’ve got better uses of my time than to sit there and listen to voiced dialogue too.

This is also why a good editor is worth whatever you have to pay. Walls of txt is not what people are buying here. Show > tell
 
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Sure, why not, I have time. To clarify, I play games for the story. And while I like BG3 being a 5e adaptation, I would prefer if it was a little more faithful (where it's necessary) to the source material.

1) What I value the most in RPGs are freedom and the amount of choices and consequences. BG3 has an incredible amount of that. Let's just look at the central conflict of act 1 - druids versus goblins. You want to slaughter refugees and druids for absolutely no reason? You can do it. You want to cause a race war, and then support one of the sides? You can do that. You want to attack the goblin fortress head on, and slay everyone inside? Why not. You want to infiltrate the goblin fortress and kill all their leaders through deception and stealth? Sure. You want to kill everyone and get information from their corpses? You can do that too, you fucking sociopath. You want to side with the goblins, sleep with their drow leader and then murder her post-coitus? Here, at Larian, we pander to those people too. You want to just ignore the whole conflict and do your own stuff? You can progress the plot by not involving yourself too.

2) The companions are interesting, in that they all seem to have potential for good or evil, and it's obvious you'll be able to push them one way or another. This is what KOTOR2 tries to do, but mostly doesn't succeed. Even Lae'zel, an evil dogmatic alien, isn't absolutely irredeemable, while Wyll and Gale, the most traditionally good, are not without darker sides as well.

3) I like battlefield interaction and verticality. I'm not talking about barrels here, I'm talking about dropping people into a hole you've made, only to later jump down that hole and find out that it leads to Underdark, and corpses of your enemies are there.

4) What little I've seen from the story is pretty good. The dreaded "Larian writing" is much better than anything I've seen in Pillars or Tyranny.
Honestly, the biggest problem with BG3 is that it is a 5E adaptation. I've always wondered whether 4E was created just to make 5E an easier pill to swallow by comparison.
 

Larianshill

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4E was pretty good (pinging Victor) from what I've seen, especially perfect for a video game - although I didn't play that much. But there were some flaws with it, things I absolutely hated. For example, the abundance of feats that do nothing except add +1 to your attack or damage. And you must take them, because it's optimal. If it's optimal, why isn't it included in the base class to begin with, and the actual feats are interesting things that introduce variety into builds?
 

Cryomancer

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Me too. In fact, most problems that I have with 5E also exists on 4E in a much greater magnitude. I have heard that the introductory adventure for 4E had you fighting a dragon at lv 2. 4E brought th short rest heal, "tiers of play", ultra low lethality and homogenization.

4E was pretty good

LOL. Only a Larian cultist to like 4E. A question. Did you played BG2 or any 2E adaptation into a CRPG? Before "it is real time with pause and sucks", please theck other adaptations like the iconic Dark Sun series on GoG.

But 4E was a amazing example of what "wow logic" with no concern of being aligned with the narrative results in a TT game. But I an thankful to the existence of 4E. Why? Because 4E failed so miserable that we got Pathfinder and Pathfinder passed 4E about 2012. We need more competition on TT market. World of Darkness, GURPS, shadowrun, so many TT RPG's which has no chance to get market thanks to D&D. I wish that D&D 6E will flop more than 4E.
 
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Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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D&D is the call of duty of tabletop games, it was never mechanically deep or particularly good, it was just popular.

Conservatard take right on cue.

Tuco Benedicto Pacifico’s point was that your arrogant ignorance is a direct product of the Western slide from Republic to Demos, and it is. At least you’ve got enough sense to understand the superiority of the former over the latter.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Conservatives? I love conservatives. Wish you didn’t suck so bad at it or I’d love you more too.

Hurr, durr, Gygax was a sell-out isn’t Conservative it’s retarded.
 
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I feel partially vindicated:



This guy spent the last months of EA basically sucking off Larian and even being passive-aggressive toward a lot of criticism targeted at the EA builds.

Now he’s listing the shitty chain/unchain system as something he doesn’t like in this wishy-washy feedback video.

Dear Swen, when even your most fervent fanboys call you out on this crap there’s no more room for excuses.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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To clarify, I play games for the story.

Larianshill

tenor.gif
 
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Sarathiour

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The goblin shaman in SoD is ok, and I'd say the cleric/thief gnome is almost acceptable, either a 6- or a 5+.

I thought you were talking about tiax, so i checked, and yes, they indeed added a C/T gnome in SoD.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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