Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Early Access Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[jackofshadows]

Before

After

Since when this bitch look like a total trannie? Oh man, wrath of the trannies and now this.

 

[Ulfhednar]

If they didn't have that large number animated dialogue cutscenes and bioware style events, they'd probably be done already.

At the same Owlcat already developed most of their assets in the previous game and were reusing them.

 

[underground nymph]

It’s always entertaining to observe a virtual circlejerk. Don’t stop guys

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Spells efects outside of combat are the same as in Pathfinder they just help you skillchecks nothing special and you don't even need to cast them just select them before rolling dice

Cast animal speaking or telepathy and say that again.

Sorcerers in 5E have a smaller spell list than Wizards and are generally mostly pew pew (not sure why they did that, but I guess WoTC needed to remind us that they're in deed WIZARDs of the Coast).

It's always been sorcerers' mo. Why even pick a sorcerer if you're gonna bitch about fewer spells? I don't even.

Disguise Self, Minor Illusion, Detect Thoughts, etc.

Yep. Turning yourself into a Drow with a disguise spell to get by the goblin guards is a lot more than a skill check, and shows genuine desire to provide the player with multiple paths through an encounter.

Or even just letting the player do what they want, and providing reactivity:

 

[Cryomancer]

Yep. Turning yourself into a Drow with a disguise spell to get by the goblin guards is a lot more than a skill check, and shows genuine desire to provide the player with multiple paths through an encounter.

Honestly, this sounds AMAZING!!!

Kinda like speak with the dead. The unique other game that I know which allow you to speak with the dead is Arcanum and BG3 is fully voice acted. "but you do that in wotr" Only in a single chapter 4 lich quest and the game is not fully voice acted. Even I who don't like a single Larian game except Divine Dvinity must realize that in therms of reactivity and production value, nothing beats Larian. The question is. Will this reactivity maintain in later chapters?

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Kinda like speak with the dead.

Which you can also do, yeah.

The question is. Will this reactivity maintain in later chapters?

Yeah, of course, this is my worry too. But I'm hoping they have the budget and commitment to see this through. We'll see.

 

[CodexTotalWar]

Sorcerers in 5E have a smaller spell list than Wizards and are generally mostly pew pew (not sure why they did that, but I guess WoTC needed to remind us that they're in deed WIZARDs of the Coast).

It's always been sorcerers' mo. Why even pick a sorcerer if you're gonna bitch about fewer spells? I don't even.

I'm not talking about the # of spells known (which you're correct, that's the Sorcerer's MO). I'm talking about the actual full spell list they can choose from as a class. In 3.0/3.5E and all the games we've had (BG2, NWN 1/2), the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list is basically one and the same.

However, in 5E, they've separated and shrunk the Sorcerer's spell list compared to the Wizard's. In the Player's handbook (what BG3 will have), there are 129 Spells in the Sorcerer Spell List, vs. 230 Spells in the Wizard's.

The gap has only grown with more supplements (it's something like 214 vs. 359 up to Tasha's Cauldron of Everything).

Sorcerers in 5E do not get access to:
- 95% of Summoning Spells (They literally got their first 1 in a book published October THIS year)
- 80% of Wall spells (especially the best ones, i.e. Wall of Force / Force Cage)
- Anything that allows for pre-planning - i.e. Contingency, Glyph of Warding, Symbol
- Anything that is slightly "ritualistic" - i.e. Planar Binding, Magic Circle, Scrying
- Any spells in pursuit of immortality - i.e. Clone, Magic Jar, etc.
- Most travel utility spells - i.e. Tiny Hut, Magnificent Mansion
- Tons of iconic high-level spells - i.e. Shapechange, True Polymorph, Weird, Prismatic Wall, Imprisonment, Maze

Etc etc.

I'm fine with Sorcerers knowing less spells (cause that's their schtick). But the issue is they're actually quite pigeonholed in terms of what they can do with magic.

It's not TOO bad in BG3 yet, but once more spells/levels are implemented, especially if they continue to keep providing creative options, we'll likely see the gap.

 

[Cryomancer]

Sorcerers in 5E

Sorc/WLK being worthless compared to Wizards in 5E is WoTC fault, not Larian... I know that is a unpopular opinion but IMO Wizards should be more specialized in a field of research(WoTC removed prohibited schools when they should do the opposite). So, instead of a generalist wizard, we would have necromancer, pyromancers, cryomancers, illusionists, abjurers, transmuters and when I say that magic should be more risky, imagine 3.5E that you are casting a fireball and took a attack of opportunity. If you fail the concentration check, the fireball should blow up in your hands.

Think on how sorcerers are in Might & Magic IV/V compared to VI/VII/VIII. In IV clouds of Xeen, you can learn every spell and they scale with your caster level. In VII, you need to invest skill points and pay tuition to reach expert/master/gran master levels, before you can understand and learn certain tomes but a bit different(ie - no skill points, but specific spelllists for research themes)

Weird

That spell is trash in 5E.

 

[perfectslumbers]

Sorcerers were very unique in the 5e playtest, essentially having mana points and being more focused on their origin, while a level behind wizard in spell progression. You could use willpower (basically mana,) to either use your origin powers or cast spells. The only origin was the draconic origin in the playtest but it was a dedicated gish that gave sorc full armor and martial proficiency and allowed them to add 2d6 damage to weapon attacks and grow claws. https://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1468185185036.pdf Players didn't like the non-traditional sorcerer so WOTC retrofitted it into being a normal spontaneous full caster. Unfortunately that left sorcerer as the weakest and least versatile caster in the game, with a terrible spell list because WOTC was worried about metamagic being too overpowered. It's not a coincidence that the best sorcerer subclass by far is the one that simply uses the cleric spell list instead of the sorcerer spell list.

Larian has made some minor changes to the ranger class in BG3 to make it stronger and more interesting (albeit with mixed success,) hopefully they do something similar with sorcerer. Especially since the weakest sorcerer subclasses are the ones in the PHB.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Sorcerers were very unique in the 5e playtest, essentially having mana points and being more focused on their origin, while a level behind wizard in spell progression. You could use willpower (basically mana,) to either use your origin powers or cast spells. The only origin was the draconic origin in the playtest but it was a dedicated gish that gave sorc full armor and martial proficiency and allowed them to add 2d6 damage to weapon attacks and grow claws.

This would have been awesome. This is why we can't ever have nice things.

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

I'll play this game when they let me start with a full party of custom characters.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

However, in 5E, they've separated and shrunk the Sorcerer's spell list compared to the Wizard's. In the Player's handbook (what BG3 will have), there are 129 Spells in the Sorcerer Spell List, vs. 230 Spells in the Wizard's.

Probably to keep players from creating gimps or "broken" builds.

I'm fine with Sorcerers knowing less spells (cause that's their schtick). But the issue is they're actually quite pigeonholed in terms of what they can do with magic.

Yeah. Now they seem like the pew pew casters that Warlocks were intended to be.

It's not TOO bad in BG3 yet, but once more spells/levels are implemented, especially if they continue to keep providing creative options, we'll likely see the gap.

I already feel the gap now. Last couple of times I played it, I found myself thinking a wizard is just the better option hands down.

As with all things, 2e was far better. (Ok, 2e didn't have sorcerers except in 2.5e BG2 or the Diablo 2 adapted ruleset, but whatever.)

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

I'm not talking about the # of spells known (which you're correct, that's the Sorcerer's MO). I'm talking about the actual full spell list they can choose from as a class. In 3.0/3.5E and all the games we've had (BG2, NWN 1/2), the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list is basically one and the same.

However, in 5E, they've separated and shrunk the Sorcerer's spell list compared to the Wizard's. In the Player's handbook (what BG3 will have), there are 129 Spells in the Sorcerer Spell List, vs. 230 Spells in the Wizard's.

The gap has only grown with more supplements (it's something like 214 vs. 359 up to Tasha's Cauldron of Everything).

Sorcerers in 5E do not get access to:
- 95% of Summoning Spells (They literally got their first 1 in a book published October THIS year)
- 80% of Wall spells (especially the best ones, i.e. Wall of Force / Force Cage)
- Anything that allows for pre-planning - i.e. Contingency, Glyph of Warding, Symbol
- Anything that is slightly "ritualistic" - i.e. Planar Binding, Magic Circle, Scrying
- Any spells in pursuit of immortality - i.e. Clone, Magic Jar, etc.
- Most travel utility spells - i.e. Tiny Hut, Magnificent Mansion
- Tons of iconic high-level spells - i.e. Shapechange, True Polymorph, Weird, Prismatic Wall, Imprisonment, Maze

Etc etc.

I'm fine with Sorcerers knowing less spells (cause that's their schtick). But the issue is they're actually quite pigeonholed in terms of what they can do with magic.

It's not TOO bad in BG3 yet, but once more spells/levels are implemented, especially if they continue to keep providing creative options, we'll likely see the gap.

The debate about spell-lists is obscuring the more pertinent fact about sorcerers, namely that they shouldn't exist.

 

[Sunri]

Spells efects outside of combat are the same as in Pathfinder they just help you skillchecks nothing special and you don't even need to cast them just select them before rolling dice

Cast animal speaking or telepathy and say that again.

Sorcerers in 5E have a smaller spell list than Wizards and are generally mostly pew pew (not sure why they did that, but I guess WoTC needed to remind us that they're in deed WIZARDs of the Coast).

It's always been sorcerers' mo. Why even pick a sorcerer if you're gonna bitch about fewer spells? I don't even.

Disguise Self, Minor Illusion, Detect Thoughts, etc.

Yep. Turning yourself into a Drow with a disguise spell to get by the goblin guards is a lot more than a skill check, and shows genuine desire to provide the player with multiple paths through an encounter.

Or even just letting the player do what they want, and providing reactivity:

Wow you can change your race with ability to triggger some dialogue its almost like i seen the same thing in dos II wowzers

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Wow you can change your race with ability to triggger some dialogue its almost like i seen the same thing in dos II wowzers

You mean D&D copied DoS2? Wow. I had no idea.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/disguise-self

Next you'll tell me 5e has healing spells just like in DoS2 too. How dare Larian put healing in their game when it was already in DoS2?!

 

[Sunri]

Wow you can change your race with ability to triggger some dialogue its almost like i seen the same thing in dos II wowzers

You mean D&D copied DoS2? Wow. I had no idea.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/disguise-self

Next you'll tell me 5e has healing spells just like in DoS2 too. How dare Larian put healing in their game when it was already in DoS2?!

I don't care about dnd pnp rpgs and all this imaginary trash i care about video games.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

I'll play this game when they let me start with a full party of custom characters.

One of the few legitimate critiques there's been in pages.

There is at least one workaround that lets you do so:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2295561677

The irony is that it's similar to the workaround for the original BG games (using multiplayer mode), though it seems like it'd be a much bigger pain in the butt.

 

[Cryomancer]

As with all things, 2e was far better. (Ok, 2e didn't have sorcerers except in 2.5e BG2 or the Diablo 2 adapted ruleset, but whatever.)

Many stuff that are "classes" in 3E would be KITS in 2E. Barbarian originally was a fighter "kit". Same for magic-users. Amazon Sorceress, Witch/Warlock(if male) and Wu Jen are "kits" in 2E. In 3E they are separated classes. Shadow mage in 2E is merely a kit which focus on necromancy, conjuration and illusion and can't cast spells from abjuration and evokation. And enemies has bonus or penalties vs his spells depending the light of the ambient(Player's Option: Spells & Magic sourcebook). In 3E, is a convoluted class which is extremely confusing, from Tome of Magic sourcebook.

I honestly prefer the approach of 2E. No need to have 666 classes for magic users, 666 for fighting man and so on. Just make kits and adapt the base class.

Wow you can change your race with ability to triggger some dialogue its almost like i seen the same thing in dos II wowzers

You mean D&D copied DoS2? Wow. I had no idea.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/disguise-self

Next you'll tell me 5e has healing spells just like in DoS2 too. How dare Larian put healing in their game when it was already in DoS2?!

I don't care about dnd pnp rpgs and all this imaginary trash i care about video games.

Sorry but that is a silly critique. Disguise exists in a long time in RPG's. In Menzoberranzan a 1994 game, you need to disguise as drow in a part of the main quest. Hell, in Baldur's Gate 2 chapter 5, one of the routes to do the underdark quests involve disguising as drow and you can even "romance" a drow chick if you do that. Depending on your decisions you end up fighting a lesser demon lord which is pretty nasty but he got fingered like a succubus in my legacy of bhaal solo run and OHKilled. I have many critiques towards Larian, but don't agree with this one.

 

[Sunri]

As with all things, 2e was far better. (Ok, 2e didn't have sorcerers except in 2.5e BG2 or the Diablo 2 adapted ruleset, but whatever.)

Many stuff that are "classes" in 3E would be KITS in 2E. Barbarian originally was a fighter "kit". Same for magic-users. Amazon Sorceress, Witch/Warlock(if male) and Wu Jen are "kits" in 2E. In 3E they are separated classes. Shadow mage in 2E is merely a kit which focus on necromancy, conjuration and illusion and can't cast spells from abjuration and evokation. And enemies has bonus or penalties vs his spells depending the light of the ambient(Player's Option: Spells & Magic sourcebook). In 3E, is a convoluted class which is extremely confusing, from Tome of Magic sourcebook.

I honestly prefer the approach of 2E. No need to have 666 classes for magic users, 666 for fighting man and so on. Just make kits and adapt the base class.

Wow you can change your race with ability to triggger some dialogue its almost like i seen the same thing in dos II wowzers

You mean D&D copied DoS2? Wow. I had no idea.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/disguise-self

Next you'll tell me 5e has healing spells just like in DoS2 too. How dare Larian put healing in their game when it was already in DoS2?!

I don't care about dnd pnp rpgs and all this imaginary trash i care about video games.

Sorry but that is a silly critique. Disguise exists in a long time in RPG's. In Menzoberranzan a 1994 game, you need to disguise as drow in a part of the main quest. Hell, in Baldur's Gate 2 chapter 5, one of the routes to do the underdark quests involve disguising as drow and you can even "romance" a drow chick if you do that. Depending on your decisions you end up fighting a lesser demon lord which is pretty nasty but he got fingered like a succubus in my legacy of bhaal solo run and OHKilled. I have many critiques towards Larian, but don't agree with this one.

Yea I know it's old af that's why I don't understand why this guy is hyping it like it was something new he changed into gith and got one new dialogue line that leads to nothing, and I'm supposed to be impressed or what?

I used Dos II as an example because I didn't expect larian cultist to know anything else.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Yea I know it's old af that's why I don't understand why this guy is hyping it like it was something new he changed into gith and got one new dialogue line that leads to nothing, and I'm supposed to be impressed or what?

Hyping? You're the one who brought up spells used outside of combat and incorrectly said it was just skill boosts:

Spells efects outside of combat are the same as in Pathfinder they just help you skillchecks nothing special and you don't even need to cast them just select them before rolling dice

I wouldn't have mentioned it had you not said that.

As for what should impress you, aren't you the guy who said he didn't care about D&D and only cared about games? How many CRPGs have you played recently that used a disguise spell as a normal part of gameplay besides DoS2?

There's a difference between one special spell you can't actually cast in BG2 and this. Work it out.

I used Dos II as an example because I didn't expect larian cultist to know anything else.

I didn't like DoS 2. Never played far into it. I've said it several times.

The one who sounds like a cultist is you. You're unreasonably angry at Larian for zero reason. How did Swen Vincke hurt you, Mr Anime Avatar?

 

[perfectslumbers]

Yea I know it's old af that's why I don't understand why this guy is hyping it like it was something new he changed into gith and got one new dialogue line that leads to nothing, and I'm supposed to be impressed or what?

Really? Isn't stuff like this in crpgs pretty rare. Most rpgs have very little "magic as problem solving." There was a disguise section in bg2 but having dialog for disguise self is very different from the Underdark which was a very specific sequence of the story.

 

[Harthwain]

Really? Isn't stuff like this in crpgs pretty rare. Most rpgs have very little "magic as problem solving." There was a disguise section in bg2 but having dialog for disguise self is very different from the Underdark which was a very specific sequence of the story.

Disguise should be its own mechanic.

 

[Trithne]

Really? Isn't stuff like this in crpgs pretty rare. Most rpgs have very little "magic as problem solving." There was a disguise section in bg2 but having dialog for disguise self is very different from the Underdark which was a very specific sequence of the story.

Disguise should be its own mechanic.

Yeah, is it really all that good when it's just a dialogue option that is available if you have disguise self free to cast? A better implementation would be letting you cast disguise self whenever, choosing the target state, and dialogues use a system of checking what you're presenting as to whom to determine dispositions, with a background roll to see if your disguise is seen through, and still requiring Bluff tests to actually pass yourself off as what you're disguised as. This looks like the "blue option" from FTL: congratulations you brought the Thing, here is your win button for being So Prepared.

 

[perfectslumbers]

Yeah, is it really all that good when it's just a dialogue option that is available if you have disguise self free to cast?

That's not how it works. The player cast disguise self before the dialogue, then got an extra option because they were actively disguised. This is systemic and could easily lead to other useful moments like avoiding aggro around certain enemies by transforming into the same race, or talking your way through an enemy stronghold with a disguise, etc. Of course there's no way to know if Larian will bother to actually put the effort in to make all that content, but it is not simply a contextual dialog option, it works similar to how it does in d&d. The big difference is you can only transform into the playable races, instead of say transforming into a goblin.

 

[Ulfhednar]

You mean D&D copied DoS2? Wow. I had no idea.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/disguise-self

So the spell your most hyped about is the tranny spell... shocking.