Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Pre-Release Thread [EARLY ACCESS RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[MajorMace]

Why do people have such a hardon for Vancian casting? It's one of the weakest, most archaic and unwieldy parts of D&D.

I like Vancian casting because it forces choice onto the player. (Please let's not get into the restspamming debate again)

That's the thing though - it does the exact opposite. You always end up picking the optimal damage / combat spells, you never leave those cool utility things you wish you would maybe sometime use.

But isn't that a flaw of the quest design, not of the Vancian casting?

I'd say the problem is a lot more easily fixed by changing casting than by coming up with some innovative style of presenting adventures and challenges.

And you would be right. It's no news that every game design problem can be more easily fixed by constraining player choice than in any other way.

You guys should have asked Todd, he figured it out 15 years ago already, he would have filled you in.

 

[Curratum]

Why do people have such a hardon for Vancian casting? It's one of the weakest, most archaic and unwieldy parts of D&D.

I like Vancian casting because it forces choice onto the player. (Please let's not get into the restspamming debate again)

That's the thing though - it does the exact opposite. You always end up picking the optimal damage / combat spells, you never leave those cool utility things you wish you would maybe sometime use.

But isn't that a flaw of the quest design, not of the Vancian casting?

I'd say the problem is a lot more easily fixed by changing casting than by coming up with some innovative style of presenting adventures and challenges.

And you would be right. It's no news that every game design problem can be more easily fixed by constraining player choice than in any other way.

I guess I just don't need the sort of depth, reactivity or choice the majority of people here demand from their games. I can satisfy myself with a decent story, above-average visual presentation and some fun encounters and set pieces along the way.
Then again, I am primarily a first-person shooter and immersive sim player and RPGs are more or less secondary on my menu, even if I do like them a lot.

 

[AwesomeButton]

It's interesting if you fall into this group and you are optimistic about BGIII because from quotes like the ones Lutte has gathered we see that Larian's D:OS2 audience "soft periphery" is mostly composed of people who have played D:OS2 by exception and are mostly playing action games/immersive sims.

EDIT: But this brings me to an even more saddening conclusion - With BGIII WotC and Swen are not targeting BG players at all. BG/cRPG players are maybe not even the intended core audience any more.

 

[Roguey]

Also Sven more or less says in the interview that they will basically keep the leveling system but are "figuring out other ways to make the player feel progress".
Unless we know what he means it's a bit awkward to pass judgement

It's Swen, so I know exactly what he means. Iiiiiiiiiiiiitem feeeeeeeeeeverrrrrrrrrrr.

 

[Mr. Hiver]

I guess I just don't need the sort of depth, reactivity or choice the majority of people here demand from their games

Then again, I am primarily a first-person shooter and immersive sim player

haha.

 

[Lutte]

Iiiiiiiiiiiiitem feeeeeeeeeeverrrrrrrrrrr.

 

[Curratum]

It's interesting if you fall into this group and you are optimistic about BGIII because from quotes like the ones Lutte has gathered we see that Larian's D:OS2 audience "soft periphery" is mostly composed of people who have played D:OS2 by exception and are mostly playing action games/immersive sims.

I haven't played either of the D:OS games, I tried the first one for a while, the turn based combat felt waaaaaay too slow and gimmicky, I saw people were saying 2 relied even more heavily on gimmicks, more or less "forced interacivity" and mixing effects and that's DEFINITELY not something I enjoy, so I skipped both games. The rotating 3D isometric camera in D:OS2 also makes me want to puke, I start feeling sick after looking at the game for a while. I am not optimistic about BG3 because I like Larian, I actually never played any of their games, except 2 hours of Divinity 2 DCut or something, which was atrocious. I am optimistic because I see Mearls appearing everywhere and I don't think high-ranking WotC brass will let someone misuse their franchise and IP in a product that no longer resembles tabletop 5E.

 

[MajorMace]

EDIT: But this brings me to an even more saddening conclusion - With BGIII WotC and Swen are not targeting BG players at all. BG/cRPG players are maybe not even the intended core audience any more.

That's the thing I don't get. From swen's report itself, Larian younger employees didn't even know what Baldur's Gate was.
I'm no extremist, I don't mind. But it just shows how absurd it is to advertise a game as "Something III" when your target audience hasn't heard of this "Something".
Wouldn't it be better to announce a new IP, hype it with the trailer (which looked cool) and Larian's rep towards their audience ? I don't get it.

Feels like a succession of events led to a game called Baldur's Gate III being made, also it was never supposed to be either like BG or related to it in any way beyond geography.

Makes me think of some announcement during E3 of a reboot of an extremely old action game (can't remember the name). Who the hell would be interested in this ? People who played it won't give a fuck and people who haven't heard about it won't be hyped in any way. Feels like companies using their licenses for the sake of it.

 

[AwesomeButton]

EDIT: But this brings me to an even more saddening conclusion - With BGIII WotC and Swen are not targeting BG players at all. BG/cRPG players are maybe not even the intended core audience any more.

That's the thing I don't get. From swen's report itself, Larian younger employees didn't even know what Baldur's Gate was.
I'm no extremist, I don't mind. But it just shows how absurd it is to advertise a game as "Something III" when your target audience hasn't heard of this "Something".
Wouldn't it be better to announce a new IP, hype it with the trailer (which looked cool) and Larian's rep towards their audience ? I don't get it.

Feels like a succession of events led to a game called Baldur's Gate III being made, also it was never supposed to be either like BG or related to it in any way beyond geography.

If it was named "Baldur's Gate: Attack of the Tentacled Monsters" it would have been more sincere, but then most of us would have just shrugged.

 

[MajorMace]

Taking about kinky names,
It's safe to consider that, among other games like Kingmaker, we can officially announce that Black Geyser : Couriers of Darkness is a more faithful Baldur's Gate III than Baldur's Gate III.

 

[Lutte]

That's the thing I don't get. From swen's report itself, Larian younger employees didn't even know what Baldur's Gate was.

Do you think people who are the audience for this :

Remember what it was?

This practice is common as fuck.

 

[MajorMace]

Makes me think of some announcement during E3 of a reboot of an extremely old action game (can't remember the name). Who the hell would be interested in this ? People who played it won't give a fuck and people who haven't heard about it won't be hyped in any way. Feels like companies using their licenses for the sake of it.

Do you think people who are the audience for this :



Remember what it was?

Here it is, Commander Keen.
What the actual fuck.

 

[Grunker]

Why do people have such a hardon for Vancian casting? It's one of the weakest, most archaic and unwieldy parts of D&D.

I like Vancian casting because it forces choice onto the player. (Please let's not get into the restspamming debate again)

Exactly. I think the best comparison here to make people understand why it's surperior is Deus Ex 1 vs. 2 - the universal ammo debate. Vancian system is not perfect but it makes you plan ahead and enforces at least some diversity in your prepared arsenal. Versus just dipping into your universal resource to just spam whatever works best. It's also why playing Baldur's Gate without Magic Missile is way more fun

 

[Mr. Hiver]

By the way, in 5e there are slot spells - but there are also "Cantrips" which from reading the rules seem to be low level spells that you used a lot of times and so memorized permanently.

Cantrips can be cast without slots and dont seem to have any cost to them. Unless i missed something.

Then you have Rituals - which also dont use or spend slots, but in PnP require time (about 10 minutes or similar) to set up.

And you have Warlocks now - who also dont use slots but get their magic from powerful beings they made pacts with. Not sure whats the cost or limits for their spells.

 

[Zep Zepo]

This Vancian system thing sounds like shit. If I don't min/max my memorized spells (for the day?), I could be fucked an hour or 2 into an area because I memorized 'flugle' instead of 'fliggle' and some encounter there requires 'fliggle'.

That system sounds retarded to be honest.

Zep--

 

[Curratum]

Of all people on the Codex, I didn't expect Zep to talk sense...

 

[Thonius]

Bro, just try to scout sometimes....

 

[Cael]

Someone doesn't know the 15 min rule. Funny that.

 

[Mr. Hiver]

Sure, it makes perfect sense for a popamole tard who just wants to have fun, not pay any attention to the setting, lore, environment or anything else and press the awesome button.
Because you are always supposed to know what kind of trouble is waiting for you.

And if not, then the best solution is to have all the spells and all the skills all the time so you dont get inconvenienced by something.

God forbid using your brain to get out of difficult situation! Especially when the brain has ran out of the other end.

 

[Thonius]

I'm going into Spider droll cave! What can I expect here? Hm some eggs here, web. Welp it's gonna be kobolds lair! Better prepare hideous laughter and dump all protection from poison spells. :^)

 

[Curratum]

Sure, it makes perfect sense for a popamole tard who just wants to have fun, not pay any attention to the setting, lore, environment or anything else and press the awesome button.
Because you are always supposed to know what kind of trouble is waiting for you.

And if not, then the best solution is to have all the spells and all the skills all the time so you dont get inconvenienced by something.

God forbid using your brain to get out of difficult situation! Especially when the brain has ran out of the other end.

If your idea of big brain is save-scumming the living shit out of IE games until you always have the right setup regardless of what you chose the first time, then more power to you.

 

[Mr. Hiver]

If your idea of big brain is save-scumming the living shit out of IE games until you always have the right setup regardless of what you chose the first time, then more power to you.

No, thats your idea. What else could you do with no brain?

 

[Thonius]

Sure, it makes perfect sense for a popamole tard who just wants to have fun, not pay any attention to the setting, lore, environment or anything else and press the awesome button.
Because you are always supposed to know what kind of trouble is waiting for you.

And if not, then the best solution is to have all the spells and all the skills all the time so you dont get inconvenienced by something.

God forbid using your brain to get out of difficult situation! Especially when the brain has ran out of the other end.

If your idea of big brain is save-scumming the living shit out of IE games until you always have the right setup regardless of what you chose the first time, then more power to you.

MUH SAVE SCUMMING... Sure go ahead scout environment. Readjust your spell selection and gear. Rest and here we go! Where the fuck save scumming in here?

 

[Curratum]

If your idea of big brain is save-scumming the living shit out of IE games until you always have the right setup regardless of what you chose the first time, then more power to you.

No, thats your idea. What else could you do with no brain?

Play games that have better design than a spell system conjured up in 1974, in a time when people barely knew how to put together something resembling an entertaining game?

 

[Thonius]

If your idea of big brain is save-scumming the living shit out of IE games until you always have the right setup regardless of what you chose the first time, then more power to you.

No, thats your idea. What else could you do with no brain?

Play games that have better design than a spell system conjured up in 1974, in a time when people barely knew how to put together something resembling an entertaining game?

Example please!