Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Pre-Release Thread [EARLY ACCESS RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[ArchAngel]

Is Kingmaker a marked improvement though? It's just glorified BG2 resting system with annoying bloat. I feel like the Time Limit and not being able to rest in dungeons without rations in P:K are the differentiating factors, not the resting "system" itself.

Resting and time/rest limitations go hand in hand. Other D&D games didn't understand that.

 

[Mr. Hiver]

I've found more people who make sense and understand what's good fun in RPG in the Gazebo than in here, curiously.

There you go just reverting to making more convenient proclamations, pretending you are cool.
But you still havent provided a single logical or even reasonable argument why Vancian system is so bad and behind times, or why "You always end up picking the optimal damage / combat spells, you never leave those cool utility things you wish you would maybe sometime use." ?

Explain a single dumb shit youve said, moron. excuse me, magnificent rpg system designer lol....

with brains. haha.

 

[Lilura]

lol nwn modules

Doesn't change the fact that Swordflight demonstrates the deepest understanding of the Vancian magic system.

Also, I'm a better writer than you, enjoy more fame than you, and have better taste than you.

 

[Curratum]

I've found more people who make sense and understand what's good fun in RPG in the Gazebo than in here, curiously.

There you go just reverting to making more convenient proclamations, pretending you are cool.
But you still havent provided a single logical or even reasonable argument why Vancian system is so bad and behind times, or why "You always end up picking the optimal damage / combat spells, you never leave those cool utility things you wish you would maybe sometime use." ?

Explain a single dumb shit youve said, moron. excuse me, magnificent rpg system designer lol....

with brains. haha.

I'm not even going to ignore you, this shit is too entertaining to read through!

 

[Saerain]

And you have Warlocks now - who also dont use slots but get their magic from powerful beings they made pacts with. Not sure whats the cost or limits for their spells.

More like a melee class in their simplicity. They have the fewest spells and fewest casts per day, but require less rest to get them back. They also only cast everything at one level. Basically made to blow their load fast, clean up with melee, and enjoy a cigar before the next encounter.

 

[Galdred]

All magic systems have their drawbacks:
The vancian system encourages you to either use the same generic damage spells everytime

Wow, you are fucking retarded. The only good use of a mage at lower levels is to cast spells like Horror, Web, Color Spray, Grease, Sleep, Dispel, Monster Summoning.. and only an occasional use of fireballs or magic missile to 'rrupt somebody.

Since when has Fireball become a lower level mage spell?
I tried both loadout through several 3.5 PnP campaigns, and the blast spell selection has been much more useful.

 

[Cael]

All magic systems have their drawbacks:
The vancian system encourages you to either use the same generic damage spells everytime

Wow, you are fucking retarded. The only good use of a mage at lower levels is to cast spells like Horror, Web, Color Spray, Grease, Sleep, Dispel, Monster Summoning.. and only an occasional use of fireballs or magic missile to 'rrupt somebody.

Since when has Fireball become a lower level mage spell?
I tried both loadout through several 3.5 PnP campaigns, and the blast spell selection has been much more useful.

At level 1, what sort of blast spells are you using? My usual standby for level 1 is Sleep (Wizard) or Grease (Sorcerer).

 

[Mortmal]

At the same time, the lot of you braindead know-it-alls who think you understand a lot about RPG design because you played a 20-year-old game to death, are stuck in your little echo chamber and speak with authority even though your authority is based on such a narrow view of what D&D is at the moment, it's not even funny.

welcome to crpg codex a website which, curiously, talks about game systems in computer games and the gazebo is an autism containment zone

Gazebo is not autism containment ,its more like a tea saloon for gentlemen with refined tastes. We even do pen and paper rpg .

Codexia is like different layers of hell, as each forum maintains a different garden for the autism. Just as Prosper rules in the Prosperium, so does Grunker in the Gazebo.

The gazebo is such an incline place, no moderation is needed and did not even know grunker was lurking in the shadows.

 

[ArchAngel]

All magic systems have their drawbacks:
The vancian system encourages you to either use the same generic damage spells everytime

Wow, you are fucking retarded. The only good use of a mage at lower levels is to cast spells like Horror, Web, Color Spray, Grease, Sleep, Dispel, Monster Summoning.. and only an occasional use of fireballs or magic missile to 'rrupt somebody.

Since when has Fireball become a lower level mage spell?
I tried both loadout through several 3.5 PnP campaigns, and the blast spell selection has been much more useful.

Fireball can be useful in some situations. Haste is useful in all situations.

 

[Lilura]

There you go just reverting to making more convenient proclamations, pretending you are cool.

Welcome to the 'Dex.

Fireball can be useful in some situations. Haste is useful in all situations.

In the IE games, Slow is usually better than Haste unless you are a rest-spammer.

 

[Mr. Hiver]

Yeah, thanks Lilura. I just arrived.

I'm not even going to ignore you, this shit is too entertaining to read through!

Thats a pretty pathetic excuse to avoid giving a single explanations for your laughable pathetic stupidity.
It has been tried million times before. Its a cliche.

And it just exposes you as a pathetic dumb coward too. A bloated delusional cowardly little shit.

That likes first person shooters and sims and just doesnt get what RPGs are about. Your own words. And Isnt that just wonderful.

 

[Mortmal]

All magic systems have their drawbacks:
The vancian system encourages you to either use the same generic damage spells everytime

Wow, you are fucking retarded. The only good use of a mage at lower levels is to cast spells like Horror, Web, Color Spray, Grease, Sleep, Dispel, Monster Summoning.. and only an occasional use of fireballs or magic missile to 'rrupt somebody.

Since when has Fireball become a lower level mage spell?
I tried both loadout through several 3.5 PnP campaigns, and the blast spell selection has been much more useful.

Fireball can be useful in some situations. Haste is useful in all situations.

And the most underrated school is illusion, if the DM is not a wargammer, its the most powerful school. it allows considerable roleplay opportunites and out of the box stuff.

 

[AwesomeButton]

lol nwn modules

Doesn't change the fact that Swordflight demonstrates the deepest understanding of the Vancian magic system.

Also, I'm a better writer than you, enjoy more fame than you, and have better taste than you.

Also enjoy more pussy than him?

 

[Jimmious]

All magic systems have their drawbacks:
The vancian system encourages you to either use the same generic damage spells everytime

Wow, you are fucking retarded. The only good use of a mage at lower levels is to cast spells like Horror, Web, Color Spray, Grease, Sleep, Dispel, Monster Summoning.. and only an occasional use of fireballs or magic missile to 'rrupt somebody.

Since when has Fireball become a lower level mage spell?
I tried both loadout through several 3.5 PnP campaigns, and the blast spell selection has been much more useful.

Fireball can be useful in some situations. Haste is useful in all situations.

And the most underrated school is illusion, if the DM is not a wargammer, its the most powerful school. it allows considerable roleplay opportunites and out of the box stuff.

Aaaaaah my character in a 5 year campaign waaay back was a Gnome Thief-Illusionist

 

[Lilura]

My Gnome Rogue/Illusionist dueling a gnome lich in Swordflight:

My staff:

 

[MajorMace]

I always put some wizard's academy in my campaigns. And it's always an illusion-oriented one. Have your players visit a city and stumble upon a school of wizard stuff is okay, but make that school a bizarre ever-changing mind-twisting building and things get interesting real fast.
They also work very well in pretty much ALL sorts of plots and scenariis.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

The strength of the Vancian system is that it allows magic to be magical. Casting volume is so scarce, that spells need to be meaningful. It's why the system is so compatible with “save or die” effects that would be considered extreme in most other systems. This is the entirety of its strengths. I tend to prefer it for this reason, as no developer out there for CRPGs has had the skill nor courage to improve upon its weaknesses.

The weakness is that it causes the primary casting class (wizard), to function much like glorified a bag of potions with HP attached. This can be particularly tiresome to play as when the character is of low level. It also creates a mismatch between other party members in adventuring endurance. Thematic, perhaps, fun—typically not.

The solution is to essentially give the player powerful AD&D like spells, but with a scaling potential for a backlash mechanic that will cause the player to self-regulate. Players tend to use “appropriate” force much more prudently when their powerful spells entail an escalating risk to wreak ruin on themselves and their party. I've made a system like this, and it works very well. Adapting mechanics like this to D&D is very easily done.

 

[Mr. Hiver]

It also creates a mismatch between other party members in adventuring endurance. Thematic, perhaps, fun—typically not.

Its not a mismatch its balance for extra abilities the wizard has. Thats why they are also squishy in DnD.
And "fun" whatever that means for you - should not be the only consideration. Especially some kind of cheap fun the devolved mass audience is addicted to.
Plenty of games to provide exactly that out there, but not all games should become like that.

And that has been the struggle for RPGs all these years and the reason for great decline.

Its not the best ever possible and most perfect system, but if someone wants to argue why and how that is, better answers then "because i say so and because im too dumb" should be provided.

The obvious fault that others have mentioned that many games tried to short change are the resting limitations, which turned it into a gimmick. While other games went for free magic with soft limits per encounter and cool down kind.

Players tend to use “appropriate” force much more prudently when their powerful spells entail an escalating risk to wreak ruin on themselves and their party.

Use to be a simple toggle in the settings or sometimes a part of harder difficulties. The whole "enemies only" shit was only introduced because popamole players complained and cried about it.

Vancian system struggles against the modern gameplay, which turned into constant barrage of action and power gaming - just like Gary Gygax described it, and against cheap, superficial players who constantly try to pull everything down to their own lowest common denominator level by bitching and crying they dont have enough "fun".

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Spoiler

The strength of the Vancian system is that it allows magic to be magical. Casting volume is so scarce, that spells need to be meaningful. It's why the system is so compatible with “save or die” effects that would be considered extreme in most other systems. This is the entirety of its strengths. I tend to prefer it for this reason, as no developer out there for CRPGs has had the skill nor courage to improve upon its weaknesses.

The weakness is that it causes the primary casting class (wizard), to function much like glorified a bag of potions with HP attached. This can be particularly tiresome to play as when the character is of low level. It also creates a mismatch between other party members in adventuring endurance. Thematic, perhaps, fun—typically not.

The solution is to essentially give the player powerful AD&D like spells, but with a scaling potential for a backlash mechanic that will cause the player to self-regulate. Players tend to use “appropriate” force much more prudently when their powerful spells entail an escalating risk to wreak ruin on themselves and their party. I've made a system like this, and it works very well. Adapting mechanics like this to D&D is very easily done.

The Vancian system, when implemented within a story, is so retarded, nonsensical, and restricting, that most authors who write Forgotten Realms novels pretend it doesn't exist. This, however, is a problem with a number of RPG/tabletop universes who then get translated into novels/games. Take Warhammer Fantasy: I could not find a single example within a single novel/story where a spellcaster simply fails at casting a spell, something which is an integral part of the magic system in Warhammer Fantasy. Not to mention I also couldn't find a single example of Tzeentch's Curse, the very reason why spellcasters need to restrict their magic usage.

I can't vouche for fantasy novels. I haven't read any since the Dragonlance series. In that series though, wizards do actually only cast spells once per rest. It comes up several times. Spell levels are a vestige that could use improvement, but isn't exactly non-nonsensical. There are many things in the actual world which are categorized by levels. Ballistic protection, technicians, construction finish grades, etc.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Vancian system struggles against the modern gameplay, which turned into constant barrage of action and power gaming - just like Gary Gygax described it, and against cheap, superficial players who constantly try to pull everything down to their own lowest common denominator level by bitching and crying they dont have enough "fun".

If you'll notice, I said that I still prefer Vancian systems over an others presented in a CRPG. The systems virtues outweigh its faults. It does not mean it is without fault though. It's a game mechanic, not a religion.

 

[frajaq]

Vancian casting... a system so powerful and high IQ you can easily exploit in games by...resting a lot

 

[hell bovine]

The solution is to essentially give the player powerful AD&D like spells, but with a scaling potential for a backlash mechanic that will cause the player to self-regulate. Players tend to use “appropriate” force much more prudently when their powerful spells entail an escalating risk to wreak ruin on themselves and their party.

Self-regulating a wizard!? My wild mages never used the chaos shield spell in BG. If people are not getting turned into rodents, demons aren't gating in and cows aren't falling from the sky, then you're doing it wrong.

 

[Lilura]

The shitposters known as Frajaq, Auraculum and Curratum should be summarily tagged as "dumbfucks" for their impudent utterings against the Vancian magic system!

 

[Mr. Hiver]

If you'll notice, I said that I still prefer Vancian systems over an others presented in a CRPG. The systems virtues outweigh its faults. It does not mean it is without fault though. It's a game mechanic, not a religion.

I noticed. The quoted part you are replying to wasnt directed at you. its just a general truth and several morons who would fall into that low strata of gaming brainless sludge exposed themselves just previously as literally just that.

I trust you noticed i never said its a religion, and that i said its not perfect or best possible system?

Thing is, the mechanic and the game - gameplay design should go hand in hand. If you want to have fast action stream of basically hack and slash gameplay - best to use something appropriate for that.

I have my own idea how i would improve this system but the core remains the same, there must be a cost and limits to the magic.

 

[Mortmal]

The shitposters known as Frajaq, Auraculum and Curratum should be summarily tagged as "dumbfucks" for their impudent utterings against the Vancian magic system!

Just ignore them, they are posers who absolutely dont care about games , the only bit of info they get is fetched from wikis.