Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Pre-Release Thread [EARLY ACCESS RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[prodigydancer]

Everyone hated when BG:EE limited summons.

They were limited for a reason. And the reason was that enough people voiced their extreme displeasure with unlimited summons. I'm actually fine with either option. I just disagree that limited summons are necessarily always worse. If I can achieve my goals with just one minion, I won't complain.

SP game, nobody will be prejudiced by cheese tactics.

Heh. You must be new around here.

allow the bare minimum of immersion

Cooldowns don't break immersion. If it's magic, it's magic. Magic doesn't exist in the real world and therefore is completely arbitrary. If it's a physical ability, cooldown is like waiting for an opportunity or an opening. Note that first-person games (where you rely on your movement and aim) rarely, if ever, have cooldownds.

In fact, projectiles on Dark Souls are far slower than IRL. Hell, is easy to evade anything, from a trowing knife, to a longbow and to a lightning.

Yes, DS is all about evading and dodging. In other words, it's all about arcadey twitchy gameplay which I'm not and never will be any good at.

 

[Lacrymas]

Cooldowns are game-y, though, so if you are only looking for immersion, casting times are once again better.

 

[Atchodas]

Locking your characters in place for several turns just to cast one spell is horrible design and would make for extremely boring combat

 

[prodigydancer]

Cooldowns are game-y, though, so if you are only looking for immersion, casting times are once again better.

This I can mostly agree with. But long casting times are very irritating even with re-targeting. Imagine casting an AoE on a crowded battlefield with bad pathfinding (and it really tends to be bad). Ugh. No, give me my awesome button (even if I can't press it all the time).

 

[Cryomancer]

They were limited for a reason. And the reason was that enough people voiced their extreme displeasure with unlimited summons. I'm actually fine with either option. I just disagree that limited summons are necessarily always worse. If I can achieve my goals with just one minion, I won't complain.

The problem with restrict to only one minion is that you will always use the best one. A pet point based system or a limitation of caster level * 2 hd worth of creatures is more interesting since some times quantity is better and some quallity is better.

Cooldowns don't break immersion. If it's magic, it's magic. Magic doesn't exist in the real world and therefore is completely arbitrary. If it's a physical ability, cooldown is like waiting for an opportunity or an opening. Note that first-person games (where you rely on your movement and aim) rarely, if ever, have cooldownds.

Cooldowns exist on physical abilities too in DOS2. Keep in mind that most magic on RPG's are based upon myths and legends. Not just arbitrary things. Elfs are folkore creatures, not just arbitrary creations. Druids are often based on Celtic mythology, not just arbitrary things. Vampires doesn't exist, but a vampire sparking on sun makes no sense. In a novel, in a movie or in a video game.

Yes, DS is all about evading and dodging. In other words, it's all about arcadey twitchy gameplay which I'm not and never will be any good at.

IS not hard. I mean, if you can play Gothic 2, you can play any souls game without great problem. Mainly if you focus on magic or on polearms. In a game about hit and avoid being hit, having reach is a huge advantage. But yes, realistic projectile speed would kill any build that doesn't use greatshields on pvp...

 

[Lacrymas]

Locking your characters in place for several turns just to cast one spell is horrible design and would make for extremely boring combat

Not *all* spells would have casting times, only whatever you want to limit. There is no point to Burning Hands having a casting time, but something like Gate or Time Stop, or Meteor Swarm would have. You can also limit CC like this, something Larian totally botched.

 

[Atchodas]

Not *all* spells would have casting times

Thats most likely gonna be a thing in BG3, some spells will have channel times but because they are channelling spells and not to Limit something

 

[Lacrymas]

Channeling evokes a different concept in me, though, like a spell continuously doing its thing while the caster is casting. That could also be a thing, but I think it would only work for healing or damage spells because CCing your own person to CC another one at the same time is probably not the best course of action unless the other person is much, much stronger and you *have* to do it. That might be a good use of a lower level spell slot as well.

 

[prodigydancer]

you will always use the best one.

Powergaming is a choice. No-one forces you to use your best summon just like no-one forces you to min-max your stats.

Keep in mind that most magic on RPG's are based upon myths and legends. Not just arbitrary things. Elfs are folkore creatures, not just arbitrary creations. Druids are often based on Celtic mythology, not just arbitrary things. Vampires doesn't exist, but a vampire sparking on sun makes no sense.

I don't think that myths and legends are very specific on whether magic spells should have cooldowns or not. Elves in most games are very different from their folklore origins, and in the classic literature vampires aren't susceptible to sunlight.

Whether it's casting times, channeling or cooldowns, it's simply limited resource management. (Soft-limited because there can be hard-limited resources like a magic item with a finite number of charges.) There's no rational explanation why cooldowns are essentially worse than the alternatives.

 

[Atchodas]

because CCing your own person to CC another one at the same time is probably not the best course of action unless the other person is much, much stronger and you *have* to do it

But you just blamed Larian for not implementing that :

You can also limit CC like this, something Larian totally botched.

 

[Lacrymas]

I'm talking about a different thing, channeling vs casting time. Channeling would imply they are CCd at the same time, casting time would imply one after the other.

 

[Atchodas]

Well you would CC your own character for two turns just to cc enemy for couple of turns later this sucks any way you look at it and is bad idea

 

[Lacrymas]

The enemy might not be CCd for 2 turns, it depends on the balancing, really. It also depends on timing. But if you are trying to limit CC (like Larian did), it's either casting time, channeling or just not give out CCs like candy. Instead of the ridiculous armor system.

 

[Max Edge]

It will be first time for Larian when they use not own created mechanics. Modern D&D better fits to video games than AD&D and thrid edition D&D but it's still not true video game mechanic. I wonder how they go with that.

Besides, they said something about Forgotten Realms version?

 

[prodigydancer]

Instead of the ridiculous armor system.

What's wrong with the armor system?

There were three big issues with D:OS1 combat system:
1) You could CC everything right away by stacking enough initiative on your characters and almost always getting the first turn.
2) You could protect your party with sturdy and mostly expendable summons for very little investment (generally, one point in Geomancer and one turn's worth of APs).
3) Several mid- to endgame abilities were overpowered and simply obliterated everything.

Instead of limiting the CC choices, prohibiting initiative stacking and nerfing summons into oblivion (which would be obvious but bad solutions), Larian added the armor system, changed the turn order to round robin and made summons depend on the Summoning skill level. I like their approach because it's creative and fair and it doesn't break my toys.

Overpowered abilities still exist in D:OS2, unfortunately, but they're fewer and it's easier to avoid them.

 

[Lacrymas]

Instead of the ridiculous armor system.

What's wrong with the armor system?

Luckmann managed to do quite a good job of explaining that.

 

[prodigydancer]

Luckmann managed to do quite a good job of explaining that.

I don't want to dive into the cesspool of my ignore list just to read up on why one of my favorite games is supposedly bad. Sorry.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Luckmann managed to do quite a good job of explaining that.

I don't want to dive into the cesspool of my ignore list just to read up on why one of my favorite games is supposedly bad. Sorry.

That's one big ignore list, comrade.

 

[Cryomancer]

What's wrong with the armor system?

What is wrong with the armor system? Is the WORST armor system that i saw on my life in a CRPG . The fact that DOS1 had problems with CC doesn't means that the fix is to make armor into another health bar who gives immunity is a good idea.

Armor systems IMO
The best = Armor as armor class - deflecting enemy blows
The average = Armor absorbing a amount of damage - Acceptable, mainly on action focused games like dark souls
The worst = DOS2 armor system

 

[Atchodas]

Its hilarious how D:OS2 Armor system which was direct improvement from first game caused so much butthurt because it makes combat harder and forces player to take more tactical approach and put more thought into every encounter, as mentioned plenty of times before, this Armor system makes it so you:

Cant alpha strike enemies out of combat or at the start of combat with hard CC - which is massive improvement over first game where you could just CC enemies out of combat or at the start of combat with high initiative and then enemies would skip their turns allowing you to cc them again and easily win every fight.

You cant focus one enemy with all your characters, UNLESS you specifically build a party to excel at one damage type but then you get punished on encounters where you need the other type of damage, however game gives all the tools for you to adjust and cover both damage types in any kind of party so it once again makes the combat harder and encourages player to prepare for encounters with consumables and take tactical approach which is massive incline.

This is the INCLINE of D:OS combat system, honestly anything that makes games harder and more challenging these days should be met with open arms and appreciated games are way too easy where you can clear them on highest difficulties just by mindlessly clicking enemies down without any thought and this armor system makes it so you need to think and strategise on almost every encounter, man up, stop crying and being autistic about it

 

[prodigydancer]

What is wrong with the armor system? Is the WORST armor system that i saw on my life in a CRPG . The fact that DOS1 had problems with CC doesn't means that the fix is to make armor into another health bar who gives immunity is a good idea.

Armor systems IMO
The best = Armor as armor class - deflecting enemy blows
The average = Armor absorbing a amount of damage - Acceptable, mainly on action focused games like dark souls
The worst = DOS2 armor system

The purpose of armor is to increase survivability by effectively negating some of incoming damage. The way it negates damage is largely cosmetic because statistically the end result can be the same. Armor can grant armor class that makes you harder to hit or an elemental resistance that absorbs, for example, half of all fire damage, or magic resistance, i.e. a chance to ignore enemy spells.

Does armor in D:OS2 increase survivability? Yes. Is it important? Yes. Does it distinguish between physical and magical attacks? Yes. Is there a difference between heavy and light armor? Yes.

So how is the whole system actually bad? Is it just about the "armor prevents CC" part? Well, why shouldn't it? You can't ignore mechanics by insta-disabling all enemies. But it works both ways. Enemies can't shut down your characters without breaking through their armor. If anything, this system makes armor more important, a more integral part of the game than it is in many other CRPGs.

P.S. My apologies for being so rational here. I, too, sometimes hate things just because. But I feel that a lot of hate against D:OS2 doesn't really have a good explanation. People tend to dislike everything that is new and unfamiliar but not everything that is unfamiliar is actually bad.

 

[Cryomancer]

The unique defense of DOS2 armor system is "compared to other crap armor system from the first game, is less awful?" or i an misunderstanding?

Why not compare DOS2 armor with PF:KM or PoE? Why compare with the first game?

-----------------

Talking about pathfinder kingmaker.

A fire AOE effect doesn't target enemy armor, since no armor can deflect it.
A kineticist fire power requires a ranged touch attack can be "evaded" but no armor can deflect, so its target the TOUCH "armor".
A kineticist earth power targets enemy armor, since is a physical hit, a plate armor can deflect like it can deflect a arrow, so target normal AC.

In therms of armor : PF:KM > PoE2 > DOS2.

 

[prodigydancer]

Why not compare DOS2 armor with PF:KM or PoE? Why compare with the first game?.

OK.

I'm a huge fan of PoE but the armor system definitely isn't its strongest point. In PoE, armor is irrelevant. It's irrelevant on your characters (except tanks) and it's almost always irrelevant on enemies. In theory, you're supposed to switch between different damage types to overcome DR. In practice, nothing beats a big fat sabre crit.

In Kingmaker, once you're done suffering through the first chapter, 90% of all fights start and end with Stinking Cloud. When nothing can ever attack you, armor is just for show. Which brings us back to D:OS2 where it's much harder to abuse CC (especially if you mod the game to push enemy levels higher than vanilla).

 

[Atchodas]

Why not compare DOS2 armor with PF:KM or PoE? Why compare with the first game?

In therms of armor : PF:KM > PoE2 > DOS2.

Deadfire has horrible DR/Pen system where you need to either stack insane amounts of DR or completely ignore it, also game does not give any proper tools for player to penetrate enemy Armour reliably and constantly.
Later in the game even min/maxed Assassin who get constant+4 Penetration from assassinate are unable to penetrate half of enemies so WTF are you talking about.

Deadfire Armor system is fucking garbage I bet when you played Deadfire you were sitting on Underpenetration off 25-50% and did not even notice it because the game is that fucking easy on Path of the damned, since enemies cant really threaten the player DR/Pen doesn't matter even on POTD it just wastes your time by prolonging fights.

But that doesn't change the fact that fundamentaly Deadfire Armour system is stupid and it doesn't even work properly in current state,it could work if they actually tried to make it work and gave tools for the player to penetrate but they didn't care about it enough.

And even if they made it work it would still be stupid because past certain thresholds additional points in DR/PEN does not matter at all : if enemy has 10 PEN there is no difference if you have 6 or 7 or 9 armour, it does not influence the damage you receive since they need to have double penetration compared to armour to start doing extra damage

Once again someone praises Deadfire mechanic without even knowing how said mechanic works in Deadfire (in this case it doesn't work like at all but hey "ITS THE BEST IN THE GENRE")

 

[Cryomancer]

Deadfire has horrible DR/Pen system where you need to either stack insane amounts of DR or completely ignore i

A PZB 39 vs a soviet tank or pierce the enemy less armored parts and kill a crew member/disable a "part" or the armor deflect depending where hit, the distance, angle, etc. a longbow + bodkin arrow VS plate armor too.

This mechanics are the best and generate more diversity.

In Kingmaker, once you're done suffering through the first chapter, 90% of all fights start and end with Stinking Cloud. When nothing can ever attack you, armor is just for show. Which brings us back to D:OS2 where it's much harder to abuse CC (especially if you mod the game to push enemy levels higher than vanilla).

Enemies on harder difficulties has a LOT of chances of resisting CCs. And lets be honest. Magic is interesting when can do more than throw fireballs...