Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Pre-Release Thread [EARLY ACCESS RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Peachcurl]

The practice fight in the arena are actually a nice income. :]

This is fun.

 

[Desiderius]

I really don't get you guys,i too like TB games. If you were all "I prefer TB because i am getting old and can't keep up ",i will be all brofist and friendly like. There is no real reason to come up with all those weak strawman arguments.

That's not good enough. You have to understand why you enjoy TB combat in the first place. Any cogent reason will be incompatible with RTwP. And what strawman? There is nothing under the sun to make RTwP look even remotely justifiable.

Then what is your excuse for never bothering to understand how it is designed to be played/is actually played?

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

I'm enjoying this thread because when I first joined in 2005 everyone called Baldur's Gate dog shit. Now everyone is ragging on BG3 because it won't be as good as 1 and 2. I can't wait until 2030 when BG4 comes out and everyone thinks it'll suck and not be as good at part 1,2 and 3.

Aside from Fallout and Arcanum, what CRPGs did early Codexers actually esteem? I've occasionally seen old-timers write that the Codex originally possessed a proper disdain for Bioware and all its works, but there doesn't seem to have been much affection for older CRPGs (Wizardry-likes, Dungeon Master-likes, Gold Box, et cetera).

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

TB is superior in most cases, i agree. But i will not say that BG/PfKM/NWN1 are trash because they are RtWP.

BG, the good
Shitload amount of quests, gigantic world full of life, especially the cities, tons of spells, creatures and magical items, different NPCs, D&D.

BG, the bad
Shit writing, awful combat system, terrible encounter design, non-existent resource management, overpowered items.

It’s a good thing that you have things such as magic duels and some creatures that can kill you to oblivion without notice because without them the game would be an absolute chore to play. But even these details are not enough to obfuscate this dreadful combat system. It seems that the whole combat revolves around clicking in things just to see them dying fast. Rinse, repeat. You don’t need anything but melee 99% of the time, and melee, like most things in BG, isn’t fun. It may seem fun, but that’s because you are larping in your head all the previous P&P adventures you had with your buddies. You can over prep and make strategies, but it doesn’t matter most of the time, so the details and options are lost in the unfair cloud of RTwP. Really crude gameplay. The same thing holds for overpowered items that the game throws at you. The bad things cancel most of the good parts with maybe the exception of the gigantic lively world, and it would be dishonest to say that the combat was good because of the richness in details and variety of the game world. I can appreciate one thing and still make a negative judgment upon the game, all things considered.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

Yeah I remember, even in 2010 when I joined, Codex had this holy trinity - Fallout, Arcanum and Planescape: Torment, and BioWare games were considered not true RPGs. Only Volourn defended them Things had changed, indeed.

Well, Arcanum has shitty combat, so the consensus was already based on storyfag thin ice.

 

[Desiderius]

Lurking was working, King.

 

[underground nymph]

This thread: rtwp is better!/tb is superior!
Me: didn’t visit thread for a weak;
World: united nations declare COVID-19 a global threat;
Thread: rtwp is better!/tb is superior!

 

[fantadomat]

This thread: rtwp is better!/tb is superior!
Me: didn’t visit thread for a weak;
World: united nations declare COVID-19 a global threat;
Thread: rtwp is better!/tb is superior!

Well the codex is set in its way,the outside world doesn't really matter that much. You could always visit threads like how fucked america is?,or the corona dedicated thread.

 

[Fenix]

of course RT and TB have their place.
but RTWP have a place?

It's just, you know, the way to do things in a time when everyone are hacks.
So, hack can only hack.

Yeah I remember, even in 2010 when I joined, Codex had this holy trinity - Fallout, Arcanum and Planescape: Torment, and BioWare games were considered not true RPGs.

Best time ever it was....

________________________________

So, about TB and RTwP - it doesn't matter which one is used. System won't make game good.
There are a lot of TB game that are shit.
What matter is if the game will be good.
System can attribute to it of course but not more than that.

 

[Silva]

I'm enjoying this thread because when I first joined in 2005 everyone called Baldur's Gate dog shit. Now everyone is ragging on BG3 because it won't be as good as 1 and 2. I can't wait until 2030 when BG4 comes out and everyone thinks it'll suck and not be as good at part 1,2 and 3.

Aside from Fallout and Arcanum, what CRPGs did early Codexers actually esteem? I've occasionally seen old-timers write that the Codex originally possessed a proper disdain for Bioware and all its works, but there doesn't seem to have been much affection for older CRPGs (Wizardry-likes, Dungeon Master-likes, Gold Box, et cetera).

That's because true codexers esteem C&C, and Black Isle/Troika games were the epitome of such, while Bioware never had it.

 

[Harthwain]

And is not that we don't like combat, is just that combat needs to be fast to be impactful. A generic wow clone mmo where 64 players is spamming the same rotation for 30 minutes to kill a boss is not fun. A 3 minute boss fight on dark souls is fun. If the combat is too long, it loses the weight. This is why bullet spongee enemies are really bad and kills games like Oblivion.

I think you meant "lethal/deadly", instead of "fast". The latter makes you look like you want some sort of fast action game out of a turn-based system.

 

[Cryomancer]

I think you meant "lethal/deadly", instead of "fast". The latter makes you look like you want some sort of fast action game out of a turn-based system.

Yep. pick a grenade or a fireball depending the RPG setting. If it can down a group of low level enemies, it felt powerful. If it can only deal 5% of enemy damage, it doesn't feel powerful. That is my problem with PoE. Having 4 casts per rest of Wail of the Banshee is ok, having 4 casts per rest of a non lethal spell is not ok.On D&D, a squad of peasants armed with crossbows can kill a mid level barbarian in one round if the barb is taken by surprise. Combat felt way more lethal. Mainly on 2e where you have way less hp gain past lv 10.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

a squad of peasants armed with crossbows can kill a mid level barbarian in one round if the barb is taken by surprise

Nothing surprises barbarians anymore. Civilized people are capable of any skulduggery.

 

[Cryomancer]

Nothing surprises barbarians anymore. Civilized people are capable of any skulduggery.

I an not joking. a mid level barb(8) has like 48 to 96 hp on 3.5e depending on the rolls. 8 Peasant crossbowman with heavy crossbows can deal each one d10 damage or 8d10 in total. This not considering poison.. Of course, if not taken by surprise, the barb can kill then easily without even raging.

 

[Cael]

Nothing surprises barbarians anymore. Civilized people are capable of any skulduggery.

I an not joking. a mid level barb(8) has like 48 to 96 hp on 3.5e depending on the rolls. 8 Peasant crossbowman with heavy crossbows can deal each one d10 damage or 8d10 in total. This not considering poison.. Of course, if not taken by surprise, the barb can kill then easily without even raging.

8 peasants would only have about a 5% change to hit a level 8 Barbarian (because AC and Uncanny Dodge), meaning that there is about a 40% chance of even 1 bolt hitting the barb in the first place. After which, the surprise round is over. So, no.

 

[Cryomancer]

8 peasants would only have about a 5% change to hit a level 8 Barbarian (because AC and Uncanny Dodge), meaning that there is about a 40% chance of even 1 bolt hitting the barb in the first place. After which, the surprise round is over. So, no.

I was talking about the barb unarmored and taken by surprise and of course, they hitting. But my point is : I like when you can kill and die fast. Bullet sponge enemies are a huge problem on turn based or real time.

Also, can take out and is likely to take out are two different things. A lv 1 wizard with a finger of death scroll can take out a adult red dragon in one round but is extremely unlike that the dragon will fail his FORT save on 3.5e...

 

[NJClaw]

8 peasants would only have about a 5% change to hit a level 8 Barbarian (because AC and Uncanny Dodge), meaning that there is about a 40% chance of even 1 bolt hitting the barb in the first place. After which, the surprise round is over. So, no.

I was talking about the barb unarmored and taken by surprise and of course, they hitting. But my point is : I like when you can kill and die fast. Bullet sponge enemies are a huge problem on turn based or real time.

Also, can take out and is likely to take out are two different things. A lv 1 wizard with a finger of death scroll can take out a adult red dragon in one round but is extremely unlike that the dragon will fail his FORT save on 3.5e...

He definitely can, but let's see how likely that is. The wizard needs to succeed X separate rolls:
1 - the wizard needs to make a caster level check (with DC 14) to activate the scroll, because his caster level (1) is lower than the minimum required to cast Finger of Death (13);
2 - the wizard needs to overcome the dragon's spell resistance, so that's another caster level check (this time with DC 21);
3 - the dragon needs to fail his fortitude saving throw (he has a +18 bonus and the DC for the scroll is 20).

Since we are talking about our average adventurer, it's reasonable to take the elite array for his abilities (15 14 13 12 10 8). To even try to activate the scroll we need at least Intelligence 17, so we must put 15 into Intelligence AND pick a race with a bonus to that stat (like the gray elf). We can pick a feat and, since our main obstacle is the dragon's spell resistance, we are going with Spell Penetration.

Let's calculate our chances:
- since our caster level is 1, we need to roll at least 13 to activate the scroll (thats 8/20 possibilities);
- to the caster level check to overcome the spell resistance we have a +3 bonus, so we need to roll at least 18 (that's 3/20 possibilities);
- to fail its save, the dragon has to roll 2 or lower (so that's 2/20 possibilities).

To calculate our chances, all these events need to happen at the same time, so that's 8/20 * 3/20 * 2/20 = 48/8000 = 3/500 possibilities. In conclusion, we just need to find around 200 brave level 1 wizards and equip them with 200 scrolls (2,275 gp each) and we can reasonably expect to take down the dragon.
So much for the winged menace.

Of course, we also need a way to reach the dragon and attack him before e breathes, but that's another story.

 

[Cael]

8 peasants would only have about a 5% change to hit a level 8 Barbarian (because AC and Uncanny Dodge), meaning that there is about a 40% chance of even 1 bolt hitting the barb in the first place. After which, the surprise round is over. So, no.

I was talking about the barb unarmored and taken by surprise and of course, they hitting. But my point is : I like when you can kill and die fast. Bullet sponge enemies are a huge problem on turn based or real time.

Also, can take out and is likely to take out are two different things. A lv 1 wizard with a finger of death scroll can take out a adult red dragon in one round but is extremely unlike that the dragon will fail his FORT save on 3.5e...

He definitely can, but let's see how likely that is. The wizard needs to succeed X separate rolls:
1 - the wizard needs to make a caster level check (with DC 14) to activate the scroll, because his caster level (1) is lower than the minimum required to cast Finger of Death (13);
2 - the wizard needs to overcome the dragon's spell resistance, so that's another caster level check (this time with DC 21);
3 - the dragon needs to fail his fortitude saving throw (he has a +18 bonus and the DC for the scroll is 20).

Since we are talking about our average adventurer, it's reasonable to take the elite array for his abilities (15 14 13 12 10 8). To even try to activate the scroll we need at least Intelligence 17, so we must put 15 into Intelligence AND pick a race with a bonus to that stat (like the gray elf). We can pick a feat and, since our main obstacle is the dragon's spell resistance, we are going with Spell Penetration.

Let's calculate our chances:
- since our caster level is 1, we need to roll at least 13 to activate the scroll (thats 8/20 possibilities);
- to the caster level check to overcome the spell resistance we have a +3 bonus, so we need to roll at least 18 (that's 3/20 possibilities);
- to fail its save, the dragon has to roll 2 or lower (so that's 2/20 possibilities).

To calculate our chances, all these events need to happen at the same time, so that's 8/20 * 3/20 * 2/20 = 48/8000 = 3/500 possibilities. In conclusion, we just need to find around 20 brave level 1 wizards and equip them with 20 scrolls (2,275 gp each) and we can reasonably expect to take down the dragon.
So much for the winged menace.

Of course, we also need a way to reach the dragon and attack him before e breathes, but that's another story.

How dare you! Wizards are uber powerful! How dare you say they won't win? Playing a Wizard is an automatic "I win!" button!
I am dramaqueen and I scream out this statement! REEEEEE!!!!!

 

[Harthwain]

To calculate our chances, all these events need to happen at the same time, so that's 8/20 * 3/20 * 2/20 = 48/8000 = 3/500 possibilities. In conclusion, we just need to find around 20 brave level 1 wizards and equip them with 20 scrolls (2,275 gp each) and we can reasonably expect to take down the dragon.

That's not true. You can fail all rolls for all mages or succeed at the first try (first mage). Just because you have 50% at something it doesn't mean you will get 1 success and 1 failure. It's all random.

 

[NJClaw]

To calculate our chances, all these events need to happen at the same time, so that's 8/20 * 3/20 * 2/20 = 48/8000 = 3/500 possibilities. In conclusion, we just need to find around 20 brave level 1 wizards and equip them with 20 scrolls (2,275 gp each) and we can reasonably expect to take down the dragon.

That's not true. You can fail all rolls for all mages or succeed at the first try (first mage). Just because you have 50% at something it doesn't mean you will get 1 success and 1 failure. It's all random.

That's why I said "reasonably expect" and not "be absolutely sure". That 3/500 is the probability of hitting al three rolls correctly and it means that 1 in 167 times you can expect to succeed all three rolls. Obviously it doesn't mean that if you have 167 mages you will CERTAINLY kill the dragon.

 

[Lacrymas]

8 peasants would only have about a 5% change to hit a level 8 Barbarian (because AC and Uncanny Dodge), meaning that there is about a 40% chance of even 1 bolt hitting the barb in the first place. After which, the surprise round is over. So, no.

Binomial probabilities don't work like this, it's around 28% for the barb to be hit in any round.

 

[Rinslin Merwind]

That's why I said "reasonably expect" and not "be absolutely sure". That 3/500 is the probability of hitting al three rolls correctly and it means that 1 in 167 times you can expect to succeed all three rolls. Obviously it doesn't mean that if you have 167 mages you will CERTAINLY kill the dragon.

I imagined 167 mages preparing for battle with dragon and then one of them says: "I know it probably will be overkill guys, but maybe we should round up our numbers? Let's say find 33 more our brethren and then will try to kill dragon?"
*After spending some time on search*
"Damn it, we found 11 more than we planned, but we can't ditch them for round numbers. I guess it's 250 then"
After some time later, dragon saw in sheer horror how 10,000 mages approach his cave with murderous intentions.

 

[Harthwain]

That's why I said "reasonably expect" and not "be absolutely sure". That 3/500 is the probability of hitting al three rolls correctly and it means that 1 in 167 times you can expect to succeed all three rolls. Obviously it doesn't mean that if you have 167 mages you will CERTAINLY kill the dragon.

And that's what I find unreasonable. Always expect to fail and have a backup plan. When you actually succeed at something, treat it as a nice surprise.

 

[NJClaw]

I mean, with 200 wizards you should be pretty confident. The probability of the dragon surviving is not that high, because the probability of a wizard missing is 497/500 = 0.994 so the probability of 200 wizards missing is (497/500)^200 = 0.3. With a 70% on your side you need to be quite pessimistic to not go for it.
With 250 wizards, you reach > 75%.
With 1,000, you reach the > 99% zone.
With 10,000 wizards, you can expect to eradicate the entire dragon's lineage.

FR population is around 70.000.000 and the percentage of magic users should be around 1%, so we have to potential for an army of 700.000 casters. How the fuck have dragons survived this long.

 

[Cryomancer]

FR population is around 70.000.000 and the percentage of magic users should be around 1%, so we have to potential for an army of 700.000 casters. How the fuck have dragons survived this long.

How many scrolls of finger of death exists?