Incline Battle Brothers + Beasts & Exploration, Warriors of the North and Blazing Deserts DLC Thread

[Kuattro]

What's silly about it? X-com for example rigged the RNG in favor of the player. Why is it so outrageous to discuss this?

Because the idea that a developer would rig the RNG to go against the player, which is what is being insinuated when people wonder if the RNG in BB is "fair", is, well, silly. Getting frustrated clients is not how anyone expects to succeed in videogame development. And before someone mentions it, no, no one has tried to make a game more "hardcore" by stacking things against the player (unless we're talking about harder difficulty settings that the player uses voluntarily).

I don't recall seeing this much controversy about RNG in any other game before. Not that I claim it doesn't exist - just that I myself am unfamiliar with it.

The controversy with RNG is present in every game with hit chances, even the ones that favour the players, like the one you mentioned.

And on a personal basis, I'm curious as to why I have suspicions towards the system in this game, whereas I didn't bat an eye in any other : from Tactics Ogre and Baldurs Gate, to Darkest Dungeon and dozens upon dozens of other titles.

You have suspicions because "human intuition can be biased and flawed, especially with emotions flared up because the game really doesn't forgive".

Once more, BB's RNG has been tested, and found to be fair. All right I lie, in beginner difficulty the player gets a +5% to hit, but that's it (and a -5% to the enemy, that I just discovered checking the link that I provide below. Take a look at it, it's quite revealing.)

Yeah sure. Been here when it was done. But the analysis in question only checked how often numbers appear didn't checked the streaks of similar numbers.
If I remember correctly question was raised directly to devs and we suppose to get response from them but we never got one.

About RNG and streaks in BB.

As for streaks, I did a simple streak test looking for either high or low rolls in a row. I broke the 6.7 million numbers into about 1.7 million runs of four rolls each. Looking for streaks of rolls greater than 95 or less than or equal to 5 (i.e. the 5% edges), we'd expect roughly 21 such runs in the data. There were 17. Looking for streaks of rolls greater than 90 or less than or equal to 10, we'd expect roughly 335 such runs in the data, and there were 319. If anything it's less streaky than we would expect.

Again, streaks are inherent to RNG, and not having them, or them being greatly reduced, is a sign that the RNG is being tampered with. BB's RNG is not being tampered with, it is what it is.

 

[Master Librarian]

You have suspicions because "human intuition can be biased and flawed, especially with emotions flared up because the game really doesn't forgive".

Once more, BB's RNG has been tested, and found to be fair. All right I lie, in beginner difficulty the player gets a +5% to hit, but that's it (and a -5% to the enemy, that I just discovered checking the link that I provide below. Take a look at it, it's quite revealing.)

By the looks of it then, my intuition was right. Because I noted an obvious change since I only recently swapped from beginner onto expert. It doesn't matter whether the dev rigs against or for the player and what not - you're crusading against windmills, Quixote. The entire point is that these changes, are in fact, concealed and are not reflective of the output data.
Thank you though, this clears up my mind a lot. I've noticed that statement somewhere in my own research, but I was half-arsing it and didn't really take it as factual.

 

[Kuattro]

By the looks of it then, my intuition was right. Because I noted an obvious change since I only recently swapped from beginner onto expert. It doesn't matter whether the dev rigs against or for the player and what not - you're crusading against windmills, Quixote. The entire point is that these changes, are in fact, concealed and are not reflective of the output data.
Thank you though, this clears up my mind a lot. I've noticed that statement somewhere in my own research, but I was half-arsing it and didn't really take it as factual.

The game tells you, when you hover over the beginner combat difficulty option, that you get a small bonus to hit, and the enemy a small malus. THE GAME TELLS YOU.

And before you come with "Aha! But you didn't know the enemy gets the malus, check mate Sancho Panza!" or whatever name you come up with next, yes, I don't play in beginner, so I didn't remember the enemy malus.

Any way, this conversation is, as they have always been in the Steam forums, utterly useless. Humans are just like this. I don't even know why I get into it any more.

 

[Master Librarian]

The game tells you, when you hover over the beginner combat difficulty option, that you get a small bonus to hit, and the enemy a small malus. THE GAME TELLS YOU.

Again, you're having an argument with an imaginary opponent. I guess one easy explanation could simply be autism.
And again, it is not a problem that the game does modify the hit and tells you it does so - rather, it isn't mechanically reflected, you don't actually SEE it in the fucking ROLLS and HIT PERCENTAGES. It's behind the curtains - so my assumption that the expert might do so by reversing the benefits or more - is by all means nothing unreasonable.

 

[Sarissofoi]

Again, streaks are inherent to RNG, and not having them, or them being greatly reduced, is a sign that the RNG is being tampered with. BB's RNG is not being tampered with, it is what it is.

Did he also count similar/close numbers streaks?
Identical streaks can be rare sure. But if they are divided by some non same but similar close numbers?

 

[Kuattro]

Again, streaks are inherent to RNG, and not having them, or them being greatly reduced, is a sign that the RNG is being tampered with. BB's RNG is not being tampered with, it is what it is.

Did he also count similar/close numbers streaks?
Identical streaks can be rare sure. But if they are divided by some non same but similar close numbers?

As far as I can tell from what he said:

Looking for streaks of rolls greater than 95 or less than or equal to 5 (i.e. the 5% edges)

Looking for streaks of rolls greater than 90 or less than or equal to 10

He didn't exclusively look for identical streaks, but streaks of numbers >95 and >90, and <5 and <10.

It's just how random numbers work, it is contrary to our intuition (and I know the feeling of "I can't miss another 90% in a row, it's impossible", believe me), but it's our intuition that is wrong, not mathematics.

 

[Brancaleone]

The thorough analysis has been made. Someone created a script to log all rolls into a spreadsheet, and logged around 10.000 of them. The RNG works as intended.

Yeah sure. Been here when it was done. But the analysis in question only checked how often numbers appear didn't checked the streaks of similar numbers.
If I remember correctly question was raised directly to devs and we suppose to get response from them but we never got one.

It is especially conspicuous with same backgrounds with same traits / star distribution.

 

[tindrli]

The thorough analysis has been made. Someone created a script to log all rolls into a spreadsheet, and logged around 10.000 of them. The RNG works as intended.

i just bought my first fire lance. Is it any good?

Great early especially massed.
>can be shoot in melee
>two hex attack
>+40% accuracy
>with Quick hand you can swap for second one and shoot twice
If you arm your early green line with them you can dab on unarmored enemies very effectively.
It loose effectiveness rather quickly and don't work well in late mid or late game but early they are really nice.
Also hand stick slings should be able to be used as regular sticks.

Strange, i had totally different experience all bros level 3 or 4. two fights. the damage was so low that i laughed... laughed hard.. sold it and forgot about it

 

[Trash Player]

And on a personal basis, I'm curious as to why I have suspicions towards the system in this game, whereas I didn't bat an eye in any other : from Tactics Ogre and Baldurs Gate, to Darkest Dungeon and dozens upon dozens of other titles.

Did you play any of these games Ironman? Most of these are more forgiving by design, i.e. there are easy ways to recoup your loss, no irreversible consequences for fail state, simply no stakes.

It is not really about the dice. Players complaining about are not sure what they really MEAN and WANT. Developers who argue against or placate don't get the point at all.
It is about the stakes. A gambler who won 49 coinflips with a $1 stake but then lose a single coinflip with a $100 stake will complain about bad luck and injustice simply because it is a net loss.

BB has a lot of high variety sequences that cascade out of player's control from the same input, to both benefits and detriments. To-hit. Morale check. Damage roll. Injuries. Head/Body hits. Etc.
Character building compounds this further. The whole stars and stat rolls aside, a lot of perks exaggerate the above problems. Sure there are also ways to improve the odds but ultimately it is still dice dependant.
Losing valuable troops in BB is very punishing to both progress and player mentality. It takes hours to find keepers and level them up. Players are also understandably invested in the process.
It matters not how many triumphs one got through, they die then they are gone.

tl;dr: By design, BB is simply a very dicey game with very punishing fail states. What dice is used matters not.

 

[Horvatii]

Ah the eternal RNG! What are the chances?!

 

[hivemind]

It matters not how many triumphs one got through, they die then they are gone.

I think the problem is people just being stupid and insisting to play ironman even tho they are bad at the game.

You should savescum and learn from your immediate mistakes until you are at a point where you are reliably beating the game without having to savescum.

 

[Horvatii]

^^ 3/13 are below 50%, rest above. Codex rigged.

 

[Reinhardt]

When i first heard "belly dancer" i thought it's wommyn, not hivemind...

 

[hivemind]

wom(xy)n

 

[Master Librarian]

And on a personal basis, I'm curious as to why I have suspicions towards the system in this game, whereas I didn't bat an eye in any other : from Tactics Ogre and Baldurs Gate, to Darkest Dungeon and dozens upon dozens of other titles.

Did you play any of these games Ironman? Most of these are more forgiving by design, i.e. there are easy ways to recoup your loss, no irreversible consequences for fail state, simply no stakes.

It is not really about the dice. Players complaining about are not sure what they really MEAN and WANT. Developers who argue against or placate don't get the point at all.
It is about the stakes. A gambler who won 49 coinflips with a $1 stake but then lose a single coinflip with a $100 stake will complain about bad luck and injustice simply because it is a net loss.

BB has a lot of high variety sequences that cascade out of player's control from the same input, to both benefits and detriments. To-hit. Morale check. Damage roll. Injuries. Head/Body hits. Etc.
Character building compounds this further. The whole stars and stat rolls aside, a lot of perks exaggerate the above problems. Sure there are also ways to improve the odds but ultimately it is still dice dependant.
Losing valuable troops in BB is very punishing to both progress and player mentality. It takes hours to find keepers and level them up. Players are also understandably invested in the process.
It matters not how many triumphs one got through, they die then they are gone.

tl;dr: By design, BB is simply a very dicey game with very punishing fail states. What dice is used matters not.

No, I'm pretty sure it ain't that. Hell, when I was learning the ins and outs of the game in beginner, I'd often savescum just because I was highly interested in seeing a particular content and not being fucked over by an RNG while doing so. And even then, some situations would still raise a brow. But this is really ramped up to the extreme in Ironman expert runs, to the point I'm 90% sure I'll miss a 70-75%+ roll. Not because I'm under some delusion of "B-B-B-B-BUT IT MUST HAPPEN, CHANCE IS OVER 50%", but rather, you keep noticing these streaks all the time, especially with sword lance, where again, I can't count the times I've missed all three enemies with a reap, simultaneously, with roughly 70% hit chance each. In rows.

 

[Master Librarian]

Also, what the actual fuck

 

[Horvatii]

No, I'm pretty sure it ain't that. Hell, when I was learning the ins and outs of the game in beginner, I'd often savescum just because I was highly interested in seeing a particular content and not being fucked over by an RNG while doing so. And even then, some situations would still raise a brow. But this is really ramped up to the extreme in Ironman expert runs, to the point I'm 90% sure I'll miss a 70-75%+ roll. Not because I'm under some delusion of "B-B-B-B-BUT IT MUST HAPPEN, CHANCE IS OVER 50%", but rather, you keep noticing these streaks all the time, especially with sword lance, where again, I can't count the times I've missed all three enemies with a reap, simultaneously, with roughly 70% hit chance each. In rows.

I have an idea!
How about you shut the fuck up?

 

[Horvatii]

In unrelated news!

You can farm money, ie trade, as a lone wolf (no upkeep, only food, very fast) until the heat death of the universe.
Can't be touched
Can't be stopped
Can't be moved
Can't be rocked
Can't be shook
We hot
When will you niggas learn

 

[Master Librarian]

How about you shut the fuck up?

I'd upboat you if I had the thumbs to do so

 

[hivemind]

shut the fuck up

the only person allowed to spam this thread and be annoying is me

 

[Horvatii]

>start game on expert
>3 gladiators, pick arena ambition, 5 fights
>4 nachz, 4 webknechte, 2 nomads, 2 nomads, 5 webknecht
>recognized renown!
>retire, game won

Best starting scenario? Unconditional first turn is pretty damn nice.
All other backgrounds, aside from gladiators, are economical or some kind of circumstance but nothing that directly involves combat.

edit

Oooh, deserters have terrible resolve...

 

[Master Librarian]

>start game on expert
>3 gladiators, pick arena ambition, 5 fights
>4 nachz, 4 webknechte, 2 nomads, 2 nomads, 5 webknecht
>recognized renown!
>retire, game won

Best starting scenario? Unconditional first turn is pretty damn nice.
All other backgrounds, aside from gladiators, are economical or some kind of circumstance but nothing that directly involves combat.

Lone Wolf and Gladiator starts are definitely my favorites. Both are absurdly strong, as well and can carry you a long and easy way through an early game. I'm struggling heavily with expert cultist start though, because the sacrificial event always starts off somewhat early, forcing at least 1-2 non-cultists to ditch the group.

 

[Master Librarian]

Also, this motherfucker is so brutal when you level him up to a certain point.

 

[Jrpgfan]

Backstabber lol

 

[hivemind]

crippling strikes lol