KickStarter BattleTech Pre-Release Thread

[Ulminati]

-Critical hits will be happening less often against player in SP game than in multiplayer. Dice will be fudged in players favor.

Hopefully we can disable the dice fudging.

That is going to lead to glorious butthurt and cheating accusations in multiplayer when people suddenly get critted twice as much as they're used to. Considering how many people use single player as warm up before beginning multiplayer, making the core mechanics different between the two is a terrible idea.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

They're probably going to have a pop-up or tutorial that explains it though.

Of course, then we run into the "REAL MEN DON'T READ INSTRUCTIONS" problem.

 

[orcinator]

-Line of Sight is in. Considering Fog of War for some mission types.

Actual view cones or just a 360 "LOS" with cones of fire like in SRR?

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Actual view cones or just a 360 "LOS" with cones of fire like in SRR?

I don't remember details about it.


Q&A portion starts at 1:04:00 -ish.
Rest of the show is absolute cancer.

 

[Lucky]

That is going to lead to glorious butthurt and cheating accusations in multiplayer when people suddenly get critted twice as much as they're used to. Considering how many people use single player as warm up before beginning multiplayer, making the core mechanics different between the two is a terrible idea.

A solution would be to have the real criticals be standard regardless of difficulty and to have the fudged rolls be an option that you have to select. That way people can't complain about the singleplayer mechanics misleading them, while also pushing players a bit towards trying the game without the unfair advantage due to it not being the 'pure' experience.

 

[Mozg]

You could just make "normal" critrate an explicit skill/perk that will be on almost all PC campaign pilots, almost no enemy pilots, and all MP pilots.

 

[Infinitron]

Oh boy: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/webeharebrained/battletech/posts/1541543

Prototyping Turn Order

Hey Everyone! Jordan here!

In this update I’d like to talk about our turn order design for the game - how we handle turn-based moving and shooting. We’ve been following your discussions on the BattleTech forumsand as game developers, they’re always really exciting to see. We learn a ton by reading your different points-of-view, so thanks!

The Grizzled Designer

We were originally going to wait a little longer to talk about Turn Order so we could actually show it to you in-game and in-action - but we can see how passionate you guys are about this topic and we don’t want to leave you hanging. As your forum threads reflect, we all understand that tabletop and computer games are two very different animals, even when they are trying to simulate the same fictional reality.

Translating Tabletop
Whenever I’m at a game convention, I’m always asked, “Why don’t you just port the BattleTech tabletop rules to the computer? They’ve worked great for 30 years!” For the answer, let’s start with the obvious - tabletop games have the enormous benefit of in-person social interaction. Being around the table with your friends is entertaining all by itself and taking more time to resolve game results is not necessarily a negative. On the other hand, waiting for a remote opponent in an online game can be frustrating at worst and boring at best. Even if your opponent is your best friend, it’s just not the same as being the table together.

Beyond social interaction, another key difference between tabletop and computer games is how you absorb information. For example, during a tabletop game, every move and every die roll you make (along with all the moves and die rolls of your opponents) happen at a speed that allows you to process that information. And don’t underestimate the tactile and social fun of rolling dice or the visceral feeling of filling in armor boxes on a ‘Mech’s record sheet. It is the tactile power of those experiences that helps us understand and retain the game information conveyed during the event.

BattleTech’s turn order is a good example of a tabletop design element that doesn’t port well to the computer. The tabletop design attempts to reflect the fictional reality of 'Mechs and vehicles moving and shooting simultaneously by splitting movement and combat into two different phases. Movement order is based on initiative, and then alternated between players. Combat is resolved simultaneously - players take turns rolling damage, and then that damage all takes effect at the same time. This works great for tabletop, where it’s easy to accept the nonlinear abstraction. Even though my attack may have destroyed your ‘Mech, I know you’ll still get to roll for its damage to mine. This is much harder to present on screen, where a certain linearity of events is expected!

So, now that you understand the basic design challenge, we’ll start where HBS always starts - at the goal level.

Design Goals
Our design process starts with explicitly stating the goals for every system, so that we have a way of evaluating if the system design is not just “cool” but most importantly achieves its design criteria. The design goals that impact the turn order system are:

• Fluid play in both singleplayer and multiplayer game modes - This is actually a bigger deal than you would think because our emotional reactions to a turn order system are quite different with a computer opponent that takes zero time to make a decision and a human who takes considerably more than zero time.
• Make Light 'Mechs useful and versatile - Light 'Mechs were included in the game to be used as scouts, flankers, and forward observers. Historically, these roles have appeared in BT fiction more than in game play, so one of our major goals is to make Light 'Mechs really useful.
• Don’t overwhelm me with information - BattleTech is a very information heavy game. Previous computer / video games have handled this in one of two ways: greatly simplify the game, or overwhelm the player with too much information. We want to find a balance that allows us to maintain the depth of the simulation while making sure that the information provided is digestible and actionable.
• Provide me visceral feedback on my actions - When you perform an action you should see a satisfying result to that action, and most importantly you should understand the results of the action.
• It’s gotta feel like BattleTech! - This one might seem obvious, but it’s important to make it explicit - the results of the turn order system should feel like BattleTech.

Rapid Prototyping
Working from an established set of design goals for a system, we like to move directly into rapid prototyping. As designers, it’s always tempting to engage in lengthy debates, waxing poetic about the merits of different approaches, but we’ve found that it’s by far more effective to simply try out each compelling idea! Our designers and engineers jump right into Unity to quickly create crude working versions of design concepts that we can play right away. These prototypes look ugly, and are missing a lot of bells and whistles, but they’re enough for us to really get a feel for how the design element plays in both singleplayer and multiplayer scenarios.

This approach has made working on BATTLETECH a great deal of fun for for the entire team as we can all discuss the merits of each approach from an informed position. Even more importantly, the rapid prototyping methodology has allowed us to vet the game design many months before a fully architected code base would allow us to.

We have built and played the hell out of seven (7!) different approaches to turn order, from a completely linear XCOM-like system to a completely simultaneous action system with many variations in between. Since a simultaneous action approach is a natural one to gravitate to for BattleTech, I’m going to take some time to outline how those particular prototypes went in a bit of detail.

Our first simultaneous action prototype was one in which players plotted both movement and combat secretly and then watched as the round unfolded. The biggest issue with this prototype turned out to be with targeting and weapon selections for each 'Mech. In the prototype, players could target enemies with specific weapons while plotting their movements and then, during a simultaneous resolution phase, they’d see their choices play out in real-time action.

Sound great, doesn’t it? Unfortunately, things often went very differently than folks anticipated. Watching everyone’s plans going awry is supposed to be part of the fun of a simultaneous action system but instead, players felt frustrated watching one of their MechWarriors slavishly waiting to shoot their designated target rather than unloading in the rear armor of an enemy 'Mech that wandered right into the line-of-fire. To compensate, we started to give the MechWarriors the ability to override the player’s targeting and weapon selections in specific circumstances and... eventually it just started feeling like the player was losing control of critical decisions. So much for Simultaneous Action Prototype #1!

Our next attempt at simultaneous action was to break the round into two phases, Movement and Combat - with both phases being revealed simultaneously. The idea was that player would plot movement for all their 'Mechs and then everyone’s movements would be revealed simultaneously. The players could then use a scrollbar like a video “scrubber” to roll time backwards and forwards to determine when to fire during each 'Mech’s movement, who the target was, and which weapons would fire. This prototype was interesting, and returned complete control to the player, but was a slow and laborious system to interact with.

Both of our simultaneous action solutions also really failed on the information overload and visceral feedback goals I mentioned above. Because so much happened so quickly, you often found yourself needing to dive into each 'Mech’s data after the action just to understand what happened in the previous round. As you can imagine, that wasn’t very fun. The other goal these prototypes failed at was actually the most important - they felt like you were commanding fighter planes, not BattleMechs. They didn’t feel like BattleTech.

I won’t take you through the pros and cons of all seven Turn Order prototypes we built and played the hell out of and instead cut to the chase by introducing you to the turn order system we finally embraced and are building the game around.

So - Where Did We End Up?
Here’s the basics:

• Each weight class of ‘Mech has an Initiative value. Light ‘Mechs are the fastest, with an Initiative of 4 and assaults are the slowest, with an Initiative of 1.
• Combat rounds are divided into 5 Phases, counting down from 5 to 1. ‘Mechs are allowed to act during the Phase that matches their Initiative. (That 5th Phase is the province of extremely skilled MechWarriors piloting Light ‘Mechs.)

'Mechs in a turn order

• Each Phase, each side takes turns choosing a ‘Mech to Activate. When a Mech is Activated, it can both move and then fire its weapons. However, once the ‘Mech fires, its turn is over and it can’t act again until the next Round of combat.
• After you Activate a ‘Mech and take a turn, the game attempts to give the next action to the other side. If the enemy has units available to use in the current Phase, they get the opportunity to activate one of them. If, on the other hand, they have no more units they can activate in the phase, and you do, you’ll get to go again.
• This means that if you and your opponent are both using full lances of assault ‘Mechs, every Round will be pretty predictable: You’ll go, then your opponent will go, and so forth until all eight ‘Mechs have been Activated and have taken a turn.

• When the game finishes counting down Initiative values and Phase 1 units have taken their turn, the Round ends. The Phase counter resets to 5, and every ‘Mech is ready to act again.

And now the really cool part:

We think this is a neat system because it reinforces and distinguishes between the different weight classes of ‘Mechs - but the place where it really becomes really interesting is when you start reserving ‘Mechs’ Phases for use later in the Round.

Any ‘Mech that isn’t an assault can be held in reserve when its turn to act comes up. That temporarily sets its Initiative Value one lower. So a Light ‘Mech that normally acts in Phase 4 will instead act in Phase 3.

With this system, you can keep reserving your ‘Mechs’ actions, holding an entire lance of ‘Mechs until Phase 1, if you wanted to.

What’s so interesting about reserving actions? First of all, consider the case of a whole lance of Light and medium ‘Mechs being reserved until Phase 1, where they’ll get to act right at the end of a Round. Then, when the round ends and a new Round starts, they’ll immediately get to act again in Phases 4 and 3! (This tactic isn’t theoretical - in a recent battle, I snuck up behind our Lead Designer Kevin’s Centurion with a Jenner I’d reserved to Phase 1. Then, on Phase 4 of the next Round I got to make a full alpha strike right into his back armor.)

As you’d guess, there’s also a lot of value in using this tactic to locally outnumber an opponent. You want your engagements to be uneven in your favor, and you want to be able to fall back from any engagement in which you’re outnumbered. Focusing your forces in one spot when your enemy is spread out is right out of Sun Tzu.

Our initiative system, which allows you to reserve units, means you can locally outnumber your enemy in time as well as space. If you can take three actions in a row, and all three actions are effective fire on a target with no chance for it to respond by moving or returning fire… you’ve essentially made part of the turn a 3-on-1 battle.

Conversely, reserving your faster ‘Mechs to break up long sequences of enemy action with opportunities to respond can be useful in preventing your own forces from becoming focus-fired.

We’re reinforcing the role of Light ‘Mechs in other ways, but this system is a significant component of their value. Light ‘Mechs get to choose where and when they engage, and if used carefully can be exactly the tool you need to get out of a bad situation. Heavy and assault ‘Mechs pack a much bigger punch, but the tradeoff is that they’re inherently more predictable - and thus are more often reacting than acting.

The Results
This turn order system is the one that made us immediately say, “Yes, that feels like BattleTech.” (Randall Bills, who’s in charge of BattleTech at Catalyst Game Labs, had the same reaction, which is obviously a good sign!) It captures the feeling of the world in that 'Mechs feel like 'Mechs, not aircraft or stationary gun platforms. It really helped to emphasise the difference between the various weight classes of 'Mechs. The tactical choices are interesting and the results are immediate and understandable.

And this model also clearly fulfilled all of our design goals from above:

• Fluid play in both singleplayer and multiplayer game modes - Because control frequently passes back and forth in this model, singleplayer flows smoothly while still giving the player a variety of tactical options and there’s almost always something to watch or do in multiplayer.
• Make Light 'Mechs useful and versatile - As explained above, this system gives Light ‘Mechs an inherent initiative advantage which can be used in many different ways.
• Don’t overwhelm me with information - Focusing on moving only one unit at a time, and allowing both sides to clearly see the results of JUST that action, really helped focus the amount of information being presented to the player on a moment-to-moment basis - all the complexity of BattleTech movement and attacks is still there, but now it’s being presented in a very digestible way.
• Provide me visceral feedback on my actions - Plotting a ‘Mech’s action and immediately seeing the damage done by your attack is really satisfying!
• It’s gotta feel like BattleTech - While this admittedly a subjective criteria, this turn-order model immediately elicited this response with the team.

Now, we know you can’t play this system yourself yet (we’re working as fast as we can!) so you’ll have to trust on this one, but our play experiences tell us that this turn order system hits the right balance for both singleplayer and multiplayer game play.

You can head over to the forum now to discuss all the crunchy details with your fellow BattleTech fans here.

And, be sure to tune into the DEATH FROM ABOVE show on Hyper RPG’s Twitch channel to see how it plays out in their live-action BattleTech RPG. The #DFA team thinks it’ll make their livestreaming combat more engaging and understandable. Should be fun!

Talk to you all soon - Jordan

New BATTLETECH Dev Q&A Incoming
Starting at 2pm PST on April 13, we’ll be answering any follow up questions about the Turn-Order System discussed in the update and your burning questions about Interstellar Travel.You can ask your questions in this thread on the BATTLETECH Forums or, if you’re able to join us live, you can also ask any other questions in chat - although we can’t promise to be quite as forthcoming on those.

And, in case you missed our first Dev Q&A, you can find it here on the Hyper RPG Youtube channel at the 1:00 mark.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Have they said anything about possibility of hot-seat mode for multiplayer?

 

[Norfleet]

I approve of this concept. Too many games seem to believe that "moving first is advantageous", when, in fact, in most of these games, it very seldom is, as it generally means you have to thrust yourself into the action with no idea what the hell is going on, then forfeit your ability to respond to the actions of your enemies.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Very brave of them to pick a system that is hardly ever used - but it certainly sounds like it'll fit BT well. My lance of Steiner super heavies will still rumble on, one Phase 1 at a a time :D

 

[Chef_Hathaway]

It's the best system to use for BT, imo. Works really well in MegaMek.

 

[Mozg]

I could foresee it being annoying if they make you click "pass phase" 4 times every turn on your Locust to set up your double turn or something. Or even just having to click something to proceed to the next phase over and over even if it isn't per-unit.

Still, sounds like it has a lot of potential.

 

[xxxCatholicKillahxxx]

Is it right to judge from that post that the game (at its current state/design) will be using an alternating turn order?
My reasoning is this: Player 1 turn 1 phase 1* followed by Player 1 turn 2 phase 4 as in the example provided in the post. A light mech reserved its action from phase 4 until phase 1 after which it acted again in phase 1 of turn 2.
Or maybe reserved mech actions are dead last during a phase.

*(remember receding phase order as opposed to turn order which is ascending)

 

[Jaesun]

 

[veevoir]

I could foresee it being annoying if they make you click "pass phase" 4 times every turn on your Locust to set up your double turn or something. Or even just having to click something to proceed to the next phase over and over even if it isn't per-unit.

Still, sounds like it has a lot of potential.

That has a simple UI solution though, just change pass phase to "pass phase until"->4,3,2,1

 

[Lucky]

Lots of development related posts by Tyler and Kevin in this thread, including this big post by Tyler where he explains why they dropped simultaneous turn order.

Spoiler

So hey. I promised myself I wouldn't reply to this thread, because @HBS_thratchen does a way better job than I could. But I figured I'd throw in my two cents, or c-bills, or whatever, because I am probably the loudest after Thratchen and Jordan (Tied with Kevin, aka Wraith) about what things should feel like, in terms of gameplay. Kevin Maloney (I'm sure he has an account here, but I don't recall what it is? I hope it's hbs_wraith) has lots of awesome ideas about the narrative and story and how to make the metagame, and I'm the guy who's like "BUT MUH CHILDHOODS!" so we're pretty even on that score.


So why am I behind this initiative method?


If you've played Shadowrun Hong Kong and also any of the Frozen (Synapse/Cortex) games, you'll know I'm a huge fan of them, and also that I'm SUCH a huge fan that Paul and Ian (the Mode 7 folks) made an appearance in SRHK. I *started* from the position that if Battletech didn't use simultaneous turn based gameplay, I'd flip tables and punch people. I believe I actually threatened to punch McCain (Jokingly! Kind of...) if we couldn't do it, because sometimes I get riled up. Simultaneous turn-based games are, in my opinion, one of the most amazing tactical game ideas ever.

So we prototyped it. And damn me, I wanted to like it - because I like it in Frozen Synapse and Cortex, I like it in tabletop battletech, and I like it for being different, but it just didn't work for the video game version of Battletech. It's good for MegaMek, because that's just a translation of the tabletop game, and it works for person-to-person tabletop play, because we can roll dice and be friends and have fun, but it absolutely felt awful for our game.

I didn't want it to feel terrible. I tried super hard to make it work in a way that wasn't strange and disjointed, but I couldn't.

So I want to extend a personal apology to @HatchetPrime, @Pht, and all the other fans that wanted it that way. It's not that we didn't try, it's that the experience doesn't translate well to video games - or at least in any appreciable way to games that aren't MegaMek. MegaMek does what it's supposed to in an excellent way, but the game we're making has to reach broader than that, and play well in a single-player sense that's not as hidebound as MegaMek is.

So why is simultaneous bad, for our game?

1. Thratchen noted the disconnect between action and result. That's because we want to show players rolls and results, how decisions are made inside the game, and how your actions translate to results in terms of damage and evasion. When that's a long string of moves, attacks, and explosions, it feels *really* strange with 3d models. It's not so odd with physical models and dice, but on a 3d rendered battlefield, it's totally crazy odd. Nobody who wasn't a hardcore battletech player could understand what the hell was going on in the game. ***, even *I* got lost, sometimes.
   1. Basically, it works for tabletop cuz you can talk to your friends and roll dice. Over the internet or vs an AI, that's really alienating to play.
2. Frozen Synapse and Cortex work because they're deterministic. This is, in my opinion, the single biggest issue. The frozen games that Paul and Ian have made work because results are 100% predictable - if you are in position X, at time Y, shooting at Z, the result will ALWAYS be the same. You're never caught unawares by the RNG demons, and you never go "Goddamit, a freaking 3? REALLY!?" Because you always snipe the grenadier, you always intercept the pass, your rocket always hits the wall and ruins everyone's day.
   1. If you haven't played Frozen Synapse and Cortex, you owe it to yourselves at Battletech players to do so. Seriously. Cortex is sports-based, but (IMO) a better game mechanically, but Synapse is a better tactical experience
   2. Deterministic sims just don't work for BattleTech, where there's pilot skill and randomness and the luck of the dice. And frankly, I refused to make BattleTech deterministic, because that robbed it of what made it the game I grew up with.
3. Basically: it was not fun. I wanted it to be fun. I have a LOT of fun rolling dice and moving figures around and having people blow up every week, even outside of DFA, because I'm a huge tactical game nerd. Iron Kingdoms/Warmachine/Hordes, and Only War/Warhammer40K, and even the occasional DBA (De Bellis Antiquitatis) tabletop games are my bread and butter. For the BattleTech video game, my rule was basically "If my tools aren't up to Total War standards, I will cry" (they are). I am not claiming total responsibility here, I'm simply trying to establish that this is something that matters to me. ***, the last time I was in Japan, I went to find all the battle zones in Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor and take photos of them.

So basically: I wish I could deliver the simultaneous tabletop experience in a way that pays off, but I can't. It just doesn't work in a video game that isn't MegaMek, and that already exists and is free! This stuff's been going on for months, and I am like an angry carp, dragged reluctantly into the future, but I can't deny what plays well and what doesn't.

Things (like the prototype) are still in flux, but certain aspects of the game just aren't working in terms of simultaneous play. I CAN promise you that turn order abuse just doesn't work. I got smoked by a lance of 4 jenners, but that's because I was rocking LRMs, AC/5s, and PPCs. It wasn't the timing that did me in, it was the weapon choices.

Also, I'ma do the Wolverine vs Assault mech fight tomorrow that somebody suggested. I will do my damnedest to win, I promise.

Is it right to judge from that post that the game (at its current state/design) will be using an alternating turn order?
My reasoning is this: Player 1 turn 1 phase 1* followed by Player 1 turn 2 phase 4 as in the example provided in the post. A light mech reserved its action from phase 4 until phase 1 after which it acted again in phase 1 of turn 2.
Or maybe reserved mech actions are dead last during a phase.

*(remember receding phase order as opposed to turn order which is ascending)

By Kevin:

It always alternates. Each player in a phase gets to choose a Mech to activate, and after that activation the other player gets to choose, and so on. The only time this isn't true is if the other player is all out of Mechs in the current phase, in which case you'll just keep activating Mechs until you're also out of Mechs in the current phase.

Imagine that you, Player A, have 2 Mechs, and I, Player B, have 2 Mechs, and they can all go on Phase 2. Let's also say that you are acting first in this phase. The order of activations in Phase 2 looks like this:

A B A B

Now instead imagine the same scenario, but you have 4 Mechs that can act in Phase 2. The order of activations looks like this:

A B A B A A

But note that 'A' or 'B' in those activations don't mean a specific Mech. It's an opportunity for the player to choose which Mech to activate, from among those that can act in the phase.

And on action order:

Before you make contact with the enemy, both sides get to move all their Mechs in a big block. I move all mine, then you move all yours.

When LOS is drawn between you and your enemy, we call that 'contact.' The player whose move caused the contact gets to finish out the pre-battle move for all their Mechs that haven't yet moved. Then we begin the first round of battle in Phase 4, and the system tries to give the first action to the other player -- the one who wasn't moving when contact was made.

I say 'tries' because the way the phase system works, any time the player whose turn should be next has no Mechs that can go, the system allows the other player to go instead. It tries to swap actions every time a Mech acts, but it can't always do it, if the numbers are unbalanced in a particular phase. So if you make contact and you're running all lights and mediums against mediums and heavies, you'll get to act first even though it's not technically your 'turn', because your opponent has nothing fast enough to go first.

 

[GarfunkeL]

That's good, definitely making it worthwhile to have light Mechs. It'll be interesting to see how much of an effect it has in the end.

 

[almondblight]

Kind of disappointing that this doesn't have simultaneous turns. It would have been a more interesting system.

 

[Quigs]

Simultaneous actions with fast actors and close range weaponry make for some really poor results.

 

[fastjack]

I understand why you wouldn't want to just copy TT (Megamek games take as long as irl games in my experience) but I still don't understand how simultaneous firing (the only part of TT that is simultaneous) wouldn't work 'in 3d' since I remember loving the way an old german effort, 'battlemech3d', worked compared to megamek at the time (10+ years ago?). In that game you just selected weapons to fire out of a checklist, dragged a line between the two mechs leaving a line not unlike the firing sticks many use irl, and when everyone had lines going you hit a 'play' button and it zoomed in cinematically on each hit with another infobox showing rolls and specific damage. My point being that it was simultaneous 3d battletech and it was awesome. Of course it was a buggy program overall and dropped by its developers pretty early so maybe there were a lot of problems inherent to the system or something.

 

[veevoir]

fastjack Being a matrix legend - hack that feedback right into Jordan's priority list, cause it is good shit.

 

[Jaesun]

 

[Jaesun]

 

[Starwars]

These videos give me a lot of hope for this game. Need to tone down my optimism.

 

[Grotesque]