KickStarter BattleTech Pre-Release Thread

[Spark Mandriller]

How does tabletop handle it?

No special advantages for lights. Tabletop balances them by them just being a lot cheaper than other mechs. Which is actually what this game is doing too, just only in multiplayer.

 

[Bohr]

How does tabletop handle it?

I haven't played enough TT to give a comprehensive answer, perhaps someone else can, but imo it generally boiled down to (a) speed, making them much harder to hit and (b) cost, obviously getting more of them for your money. In TT you can often play with company level engagements or above, and having a couple of fast, cheap units to round out the company and use their movement to where they can finish off any vulnerable units or deal with infantry etc can be useful. The actual scouting aspect can be done well in a computer game with fog of war if they use big enough maps.

But having said all that, this was what Jordan said in a KS update about how they'd never quite worked the way he wanted and why they wanted to beef up their role if possible:

Spoiler

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/webeharebrained/battletech/posts/1541543

Make Light 'Mechs useful and versatile - Light 'Mechs were included in the game to be used as scouts, flankers, and forward observers. Historically, these roles have appeared in BT fiction more than in game play, so one of our major goals is to make Light 'Mechs really useful.

***

Conversely, reserving your faster ‘Mechs to break up long sequences of enemy action with opportunities to respond can be useful in preventing your own forces from becoming focus-fired.

We’re reinforcing the role of Light ‘Mechs in other ways, but this system is a significant component of their value. Light ‘Mechs get to choose where and when they engage, and if used carefully can be exactly the tool you need to get out of a bad situation. Heavy and assault ‘Mechs pack a much bigger punch, but the tradeoff is that they’re inherently more predictable - and thus are more often reacting than acting.

 

[Cael]

How does tabletop handle it?

No special advantages for lights. Tabletop balances them by them just being a lot cheaper than other mechs. Which is actually what this game is doing too, just only in multiplayer.

Money means a lot more in TT campaigns than every BTech computer game out there.

Plus speed is pretty good advantage if you are going against green/rookie pilots. Just make sure you hit the penalty thresholds (3, 5, 7, 10) when you move.

 

[Infinitron]

Bottom line is, is there ever a situation where having 3 heavies + 1 light is clearly superior to having 4 heavies. Or at least as good as having 4 heavies.

 

[Cael]

Bottom line is, is there ever a situation where having 3 heavies + 1 light is clearly superior to having 4 heavies.

In TT? Yes. Several.

 

[Spark Mandriller]

Money means a lot more in TT campaigns than every BTech computer game out there.

Plus speed is pretty good advantage if you are going against green/rookie pilots. Just make sure you hit the penalty thresholds (3, 5, 7, 10) when you move.

No argument here. Though money will be pretty important in MP for this game, given that it's the only balancing factor. If you want one specific expensive mech then you might be forced to use lights to stay under the total cost cap. I don't doubt there are going to be a lot of people who'll just want to play unrestricted so they can have four assaults though.
Speed is important, but it's not like that's exclusive to lights. Plenty of fast mediums out there too. And once you bring in XL engines everyone gets crazy, though that's obviously not relevant to this game. At least not yet.

 

[Cael]

Money means a lot more in TT campaigns than every BTech computer game out there.

Plus speed is pretty good advantage if you are going against green/rookie pilots. Just make sure you hit the penalty thresholds (3, 5, 7, 10) when you move.

No argument here. Though money will be pretty important in MP for this game, given that it's the only balancing factor. If you want one specific expensive mech then you might be forced to use lights to stay under the total cost cap. I don't doubt there are going to be a lot of people who'll just want to play unrestricted so they can have four assaults though.
Speed is important, but it's not like that's exclusive to lights. Plenty of fast mediums out there too. And once you bring in XL engines everyone gets crazy, though that's obviously not relevant to this game. At least not yet.

The major component of 'mech cost is, surprisingly, the engine rating. A light going 7,11,7 is going to cost significantly less than a medium going 7,11,7. On top of that, there is a final cost multiplier of 1+('mech weight/100).

For example, a 35-ton Jenner has about 2 mill of its cost dedicated to the engine and gyro. A 40-ton Assassin has 2.3 mill dedicated to the same. Just 5 ton difference. Jump jet cost is also affected by 'mech weight (200 x jump speed^2 x 'mech weight x final cost multiplier, to be precise). Speed has a very significant opportunity cost.

The other thing where it becomes important is this: You can have 4 Quickdraws for a total of 240 tons or 2 Marauders, 1 Warhammer and 1 Locust for the same. Which would you rather have?

Or, if you want to use the costs as listed in the table 2 pages ago, 3 Orions and a Locust vs 4 Quickdraws.

 

[Spark Mandriller]

The major component of 'mech cost is, surprisingly, the engine rating. A light going 7,11,7 is going to cost significantly less than a medium going 7,11,7. On top of that, there is a final cost multiplier of 1+('mech weight/100).

Oh, that's what you're getting at. Yeah, I don't really think balancing by c bills is a great move for tabletop. But in any case, that comes back to the advantage of lights being that they're cheap. That's their thing, yep. We're in agreement here.

 

[ArchAngel]

It is not like you can avoid it unless you keep them hidden the whole time and only use them to finish off heavy damaged enemies. At that point I might as well not use one and have a more useful mech.

As soon as you move one into fire position, any alive enemies are not forced to attack your "tank" mech, they can attack any mech within range and why not the one that you can actually do some damage to.

The thing with the Spider is that it is the only 'mech other than the Assassin who can jump 7+ spaces. Jumping 7+ imposes a whopping +4 penalty to the enemy's attack roll vs the Spider (remember that we are dealing with 2d6 rolls here). Drop the Spider into dense terrain (+2 penalty) at medium range (+2 penalty again) and it is nigh untouchable. And 2 MedLas blasts to the rear (or the threat of 2) is no joking matter.

Again, this is far enhanced by Clan tech. In fact, two particular Clan 'mechs are notoriously well suited for this tactic: The Viper/Black Python and the Goshawk/Vapor Eagle. They have a combination of jump jets, large pulse lasers and targeting computer. Using the same tactic, they impose a massive penalty to you hitting them, but the pulse lasers and targeting computer mitigates a massive part of the penalties to them. Viper style 'mechs on TT are the most frustrating enemies you can face, especially when piloted by Clan warriors AND you don't have the Clan tech pulse lasers yourself. A Viper can easily go one-on-one vs a Daishi an come up on top. The only near contender is the Masakari variant with targeting computer and large pulse lasers, which has the armour to take the hits and enough bonus to hit to have a chance of swatting the bastards out of the sky.

That is all good for TT but I have not seen this dodge in the streams so far. All I have seen are Light mechs getting blown up as soon as they dare to try to contribute to the battle.

 

[Bohr]

Finally for today, it seems dropships and jumpships got a couple of changes/upgrades

Spoiler

 

[Jason Liang]

A questions to people following this game more than me: What prevents you from having a lance with 4 most armored and biggest mechs with most weapons?
Why would you want or need to have lighter and weaker mechs?

A heavy mech has nearly the same weapons and/or armor as an assault mech, but will get the initiative advantage against assaults (as implemented in this game). So basically Lights > Mediums > Heavy > Assault > Light + Medium

The initiative advantage seems significant enough to negate the extra tonnage advantage of the heavier tonnage class.

For example, comparing 2 clan mechs, a Timber Wolf has better weapons and nearly as much armor as an Executioner, despite Executioners having a 20 ton advantage over the Timber Wolf.

Not sure how they implemented a slow light mech like Urbies. Seems like they get the same initiative advantage as any other light mech.

 

[almondblight]

Tabletop balances them by them just being a lot cheaper than other mechs. Which is actually what this game is doing too, just only in multiplayer.

Wait, what? So they'll do a sort of point buy system for multi, but then let you choose whatever mechs you want for singleplayer?

 

[Bohr]

In multi you can choose various c-bill limits for matches, or go for Steiner-style unlimited matches, picking from any of the main (ie non-boss/lostech) variants in the game if you want. In singleplayer (campaign) you can drop with only whatever mechs you have salvaged/bought, and then have to fund upkeep and repairs.

edit: Unless you mean singleplayer "skirmish" mode, which has the same options as multiplayer, just you will be up against an AI lance not a lance controlled by another player.

 

[Cael]

It is not like you can avoid it unless you keep them hidden the whole time and only use them to finish off heavy damaged enemies. At that point I might as well not use one and have a more useful mech.

As soon as you move one into fire position, any alive enemies are not forced to attack your "tank" mech, they can attack any mech within range and why not the one that you can actually do some damage to.

The thing with the Spider is that it is the only 'mech other than the Assassin who can jump 7+ spaces. Jumping 7+ imposes a whopping +4 penalty to the enemy's attack roll vs the Spider (remember that we are dealing with 2d6 rolls here). Drop the Spider into dense terrain (+2 penalty) at medium range (+2 penalty again) and it is nigh untouchable. And 2 MedLas blasts to the rear (or the threat of 2) is no joking matter.

Again, this is far enhanced by Clan tech. In fact, two particular Clan 'mechs are notoriously well suited for this tactic: The Viper/Black Python and the Goshawk/Vapor Eagle. They have a combination of jump jets, large pulse lasers and targeting computer. Using the same tactic, they impose a massive penalty to you hitting them, but the pulse lasers and targeting computer mitigates a massive part of the penalties to them. Viper style 'mechs on TT are the most frustrating enemies you can face, especially when piloted by Clan warriors AND you don't have the Clan tech pulse lasers yourself. A Viper can easily go one-on-one vs a Daishi an come up on top. The only near contender is the Masakari variant with targeting computer and large pulse lasers, which has the armour to take the hits and enough bonus to hit to have a chance of swatting the bastards out of the sky.

That is all good for TT but I have not seen this dodge in the streams so far. All I have seen are Light mechs getting blown up as soon as they dare to try to contribute to the battle.

Base BTech rules are pretty straightforward: 4 + weapon range increment + enemy movement + your movement + terrain bonuses - your gunnery skill = number you have to roll to hit.

So, say a Locust runs at max speed up to your rookie pilot. Best case scenario is that the Locust ends up in the open right next to your rookie and your rookie didn't move that turn. That is a base of 4 + 0 (short range) + 4 (enemy movement) + 0 (your movement) + 0 (clear terrain + no intervening terrain) - 0 (rookie) = 8. That means a rookie recruit has to roll 8 or better on 2d6 to hit the Locust. Now, factor in your movement (1 for walking, 2 for running, 3 for jumping) and weapon range (2 for medium, 4 for long), and you very quickly find that you will miss far more often than not when you are trying to hit fast 'mechs with a rookie pilot.

THAT is the advantage of fast light 'mechs in TT. What is worse is the whole minimum range thing. Every hex within minimum range is +1 a to-hit penalty. A PPC has minimum range 3, that means a light 'mech that ran in to be right beside you (range 1) gives you a +3 penalty to-hit with a PPC straight off the bat. LRM has a minimum range of 6. Good luck hitting the light 'mech.

If the streamers are hitting left and right on light 'mechs, HBS has frakked up the whole game. Take it out back, Jim, and spread the ashes. End of story.

 

[Grotesque]

 

[almondblight]

In multi you can choose various c-bill limits for matches, or go for Steiner-style unlimited matches, picking from any of the main (ie non-boss/lostech) variants in the game if you want. In singleplayer you can drop with only whatever mechs you have salvaged/bought, and then have to fund upkeep and repairs.

It seems that a multiplayer type limit would be a pretty easy way to increase the difficulty/add some complexity to singleplayer. Otherwise, people are just going to drop whatever best mechs are available when they hit difficult missions.

 

[Cael]

The major component of 'mech cost is, surprisingly, the engine rating. A light going 7,11,7 is going to cost significantly less than a medium going 7,11,7. On top of that, there is a final cost multiplier of 1+('mech weight/100).

Oh, that's what you're getting at. Yeah, I don't really think balancing by c bills is a great move for tabletop. But in any case, that comes back to the advantage of lights being that they're cheap. That's their thing, yep. We're in agreement here.

It isn't, which is why for tournament type play, they went to the Battle Value (BV) system. However, if you are playing a RPG type campaign, balance doesn't matter because what your and your friends are fighting is whatever the heck the GM wants you to fight.

 

[Alpharius]

It is not like you can avoid it unless you keep them hidden the whole time and only use them to finish off heavy damaged enemies. At that point I might as well not use one and have a more useful mech.

As soon as you move one into fire position, any alive enemies are not forced to attack your "tank" mech, they can attack any mech within range and why not the one that you can actually do some damage to.

The thing with the Spider is that it is the only 'mech other than the Assassin who can jump 7+ spaces. Jumping 7+ imposes a whopping +4 penalty to the enemy's attack roll vs the Spider (remember that we are dealing with 2d6 rolls here). Drop the Spider into dense terrain (+2 penalty) at medium range (+2 penalty again) and it is nigh untouchable. And 2 MedLas blasts to the rear (or the threat of 2) is no joking matter.

Again, this is far enhanced by Clan tech. In fact, two particular Clan 'mechs are notoriously well suited for this tactic: The Viper/Black Python and the Goshawk/Vapor Eagle. They have a combination of jump jets, large pulse lasers and targeting computer. Using the same tactic, they impose a massive penalty to you hitting them, but the pulse lasers and targeting computer mitigates a massive part of the penalties to them. Viper style 'mechs on TT are the most frustrating enemies you can face, especially when piloted by Clan warriors AND you don't have the Clan tech pulse lasers yourself. A Viper can easily go one-on-one vs a Daishi an come up on top. The only near contender is the Masakari variant with targeting computer and large pulse lasers, which has the armour to take the hits and enough bonus to hit to have a chance of swatting the bastards out of the sky.

That is all good for TT but I have not seen this dodge in the streams so far. All I have seen are Light mechs getting blown up as soon as they dare to try to contribute to the battle.

Base BTech rules are pretty straightforward: 4 + weapon range increment + enemy movement + your movement + terrain bonuses - your gunnery skill = number you have to roll to hit.

So, say a Locust runs at max speed up to your rookie pilot. Best case scenario is that the Locust ends up in the open right next to your rookie and your rookie didn't move that turn. That is a base of 4 + 0 (short range) + 4 (enemy movement) + 0 (your movement) + 0 (clear terrain + no intervening terrain) - 0 (rookie) = 8. That means a rookie recruit has to roll 8 or better on 2d6 to hit the Locust. Now, factor in your movement (1 for walking, 2 for running, 3 for jumping) and weapon range (2 for medium, 4 for long), and you very quickly find that you will miss far more often than not when you are trying to hit fast 'mechs with a rookie pilot.

THAT is the advantage of fast light 'mechs in TT. What is worse is the whole minimum range thing. Every hex within minimum range is +1 a to-hit penalty. A PPC has minimum range 3, that means a light 'mech that ran in to be right beside you (range 1) gives you a +3 penalty to-hit with a PPC straight off the bat. LRM has a minimum range of 6. Good luck hitting the light 'mech.

If the streamers are hitting left and right on light 'mechs, HBS has frakked up the whole game. Take it out back, Jim, and spread the ashes. End of story.

Here it seems like lights can get an average of +1 evasion due to movement compared to mediums(if thet move far enough this turn), which translates to -10% hit chance for the enemy. Same for mediums compared to heavies and heavies compared to assaults. So not nearly enough to offset the lower armor. Lowered hit chances for ppc and lrm are also in ofc.

No penalties for walking, running and jumping. No idea why they didn't put those in.

I guess the lights will still be useful in multiplayer in modes with limited c-bills, since they still can be used as scouts, but there will be zero reason to ever use them in campaign.

 

[Cael]

Here it seems like lights can get on average of +1 evasion due to movement(if thet move far enough this turn), which translates to -10% hit chance for the enemy. Same for mediums compared to heavies and heavies compared to assaults. So not nearly enough to offset the lower armor. Lowered hit chances for ppc and lrm are also in ofc.

No penalties for walking, running and jumping. No idea why they didn't put those in.

I guess the lights will still be useful in multiplayer in modes with limited c-bills, since they still can be used as scouts, but there will be zero reason to ever use them in campaign.

So, in other words, they took out the biggest advantage fast 'mechs (not just light 'mechs are fast ) have over other 'mechs and then they try to "balance" it by adding other things to the game.

My God, HBS is the frakking Australian government. "Let's jack up power prices with a carbon tax, but we will compensate households so that the people won't feel the pinch." If that is the case, why do it in the first place, you fucking idiots???

 

[Alpharius]

Here it seems like lights can get on average of +1 evasion due to movement(if thet move far enough this turn), which translates to -10% hit chance for the enemy. Same for mediums compared to heavies and heavies compared to assaults. So not nearly enough to offset the lower armor. Lowered hit chances for ppc and lrm are also in ofc.

No penalties for walking, running and jumping. No idea why they didn't put those in.

I guess the lights will still be useful in multiplayer in modes with limited c-bills, since they still can be used as scouts, but there will be zero reason to ever use them in campaign.

So, in other words, they took out the biggest advantage fast 'mechs (not just light 'mechs are fast ) have over other 'mechs and then they try to "balance" it by adding other things to the game.

My God, HBS is the frakking Australian government. "Let's jack up power prices with a carbon tax, but we will compensate households so that the people won't feel the pinch." If that is the case, why do it in the first place, you fucking idiots???

I bet they found tonnage or c-bills limits "too punishing for players", same as increased maintenance for heavies comapred to lights, non-free armor repairs and ammo refills, mech destruction on CT loss, etc. Btw jumpship services are pretty cheap too, only 30k per jump, when even the easiest contract rewards are close to 200k.

 

[almondblight]

I bet they found tonnage or c-bills limits "too punishing for players", same as increased maintenance for heavies comapred to lights, non-free armor repairs and ammo refills, mech destruction on CT loss, etc. Btw jumpship services are pretty cheap too, only 30k per jump, when even the easiest contract rewards are close to 200k.

The thing is, it would be easy to allow users to toggle those. HBS seems to have gone beyond "we don't want the average user to lhave to reload" to "we don't want anyone who ever plays this game to ever lose a mission and reload." Challenge in a game is a necessity, not a luxury. If it doesn't matter what a player does, they might as well just be watching a Youtube video.

 

[Bohr]

Is that a tweet? Forum post? Your filehost didn't load for me.

Sorry, no idea what's going on with some usually reliable hosts the last couple of days. And they're still working for some.

anyway, rehosted

Spoiler

 

[Infinitron]

It's all worked fine for me. Something weird about oasis's Internet connection.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Is that a tweet? Forum post? Your filehost didn't load for me.

Sorry, no idea what's going on with some usually reliable hosts the last couple of days. And they're still working for some.

anyway, rehosted

Spoiler

Seems like they took inspiration from the Sawyer school of writing.

 

[Bohr]

In all honesty I think those were written by an intern or something, who didn't bother checking the usual sources (devs would often post about how long they spent on Sarna)
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/DropShip
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/JumpShip

Obviously Jordan is free to do whatever he wants with his universe, but somehow I don't think these introductory conversation snippets in the early game are intended to change the usual "dropships are incapable of FTL travel and so need to slowly make their way out to jumpships" and "jumpships usually jump max 30 LY" conventions, which would change so much, from the established history of the setting to the balance of power (no Comstar info monopoly or interdictions I guess) to the gameplay.

I guess it could be fun attacking planets with FTL dropships though