Squeenix Best Final Fantasy

[Ash]

I remember the opposite, but if true then I can withdraw this criticism. However if ATE sequences lead to sidequests/items, then I would say they are not optional from a completionist perspective.

Blue ATEs (the majority) are entirely optional. Grey ones (rare) are mandatory. It's probably more like 80% optional though, not 90%. In the name of accuracy.

Side quests don't come in to play with ATE's, though sometimes you will get some trivial items. I think a kupo nut is obtained in one actually, but it's for a shitty sidequest you don't really need to worry about anyway. But personally I find them mostly fun to view.

This is an example of show vs. tell. From what we see in the game, Zidane is a horny virgin. Are you a chad because you like girls, or because girls like you? In FF6, Edgar is a literal king and bangs at least one waitress, and never has a mental breakdown. Cloud has a harem of girls fighting over him. Squall has a TEACHER lure him to the makeout spot and beg him to make a move.

Girls do like Zidane. On more than one occasion it is shown his has good rapport/history with multiple chicks. Ruby, Lindblum bartender, Eiko immediately crushes on him for his personality.
Cloud's harem? It's just Tifa and Aeris in the original non-retarded game (not the abysmal remake), and he is too much of a failure to close the deal with either. Squall again, yeah girls like him but for some reason he doesn't close the deal until Rinoa. You are a chad if you like girls and act on it, sometimes sealing the deal. NOT a chad if girls like you and you're too much of a pussy or weirdo to act on it. So yeah, Zidane is the true chad of JRPG, especially in combination with his virtue, heroism etc.

I was anticipating this criticism, i.e. "How can you talk about story if you say you only like gameplay?" The answer is that story *is* gameplay in FF9. It is not optional, it is a core part of the experience, it is something the game devotes the most time and resources for. I give the story exactly as much attention as the game does itself. If it were text boxes on loading screens, I wouldn't care.

To me, saying I'm a combatfag doesn't mean I don't enjoy story, it just means I don't view it as the primary draw of a game. A good game should have both, but I will take good gameplay over bad story as long as it doesn't intrude on the gameplay too much (e.g. FF5). I think they're both bad in FF9, so whatever. If I were a storyfag, I wouldn't have hundreds of hours in 7 Days to Die and Kenshi, and I wouldn't view Disco Elysium as a non-game walking sim.

My "storyfag" response was disingenuous. What you presented was still a valid criticism. I was waving it off.

I don't get it. Vanilla grinding isn't really necessary.

A little grinding maybe, but nothing excessive is required. 10 and 5 are both more grindy, for example.

[regarding balance] In any case, you're talking about this game like it's god's gift to gaming, so it should be better, no?

Absolutely. that's what the romhack is for.

Generally disagree. In terms on affect on the plot, Seymour is much more involved. Kuja is like that crazy guy who follows you around in Tales of Vesperia like a stalker. Annoying nuisance, not S-tier villain. Seymour also has MUCH better bossfights, is creepy and menacing, and has a coherent motivation we can understand.

I will concede that Kuja is one of the lesser villains for sure. Though I am skeptical you completed the game as his motives and reasoning all becomes sensible and rational towards the end.

I recall most dungeons were walking through 2-4 rendered screens and fighting a boss (Black Waltz 1-37, lol). The final dungeon is a straight path with no deviations. There's nothing like the Galbadian Garden battle, Ultimecia's castle, the North cave, Shinra HQ, Kefka's tower, the moon depths, the Cleft of Dimension, or even the time shifted Temple of Fiends.

What are these oh so devious and complex dungeons that I am forgetting?

It may not exceed 5, 6, 7, 8 dungeons, as those contain some of the very best. It does however far exceed 10's. Anyways, again, cleyra trunk (fun treasure hunting), mt gulug (multiple paths and various forms of interactivity), desert palace (fairly linear but puzzle elements galore), Ipsen's castle (non-linear, combat rule shift, puzzle elements, traps). It's not the best in the series, but it is far from the worst.

Is the hack for the Steam release where you can skip cutscenes, or just the PSX version?

PSX. All are hacks of their original non-cucked releases.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Though I am skeptical you completed the game as his motives and reasoning all becomes sensible and rational towards the end.

I seem to remember he hates Zidane because of clone replicant nonsense. I did not find it compelling. I will give him points for using Trance to power up, a rare case in these games where the limit break mechanic actually has a story relevance.

 

[Ash]

Oh wait I forgot cloud bangs tifa at the end of the game lol. Well, maybe. She might have complained it was too cold and it is too immodest to do the dirty outdoors. Or cloud might have pussied out. But it fades to black and they wake up the next morning in each other's arms, so that says a lot.

Though I am skeptical you completed the game as his motives and reasoning all becomes sensible and rational towards the end.

I seem to remember he hates Zidane because of clone replicant nonsense. I did not find it compelling.

Nope. 9 is very misunderstood on this board.

 

[Damned Registrations]

10 and 5 are both more grindy, for example.

Not really. 10 has the monster arena, which is grindy to set up I suppose, but once you get there it's a giant xp and loot pinata. 5 requires a ton of AP if you want to master like, all the jobs or something but that's retarded. Just playing normally you'll get a ton of skills to play with by the time you hit the cleft and and switch everyone to freelancer or mimic to abuse support skills. FF5 is MASSIVE. Also; you can do like 3 battles in either game in the time it takes you to do one in FF9.

 

[Falksi]

I've got to ask though, how on earth do you class FF7's battle design as better than FF5's? The job system is way more interesting, varied, challenging and easily the best of the series IMO.

Eh, materia system is fucking awesome. The freedom far exceeds V. You define everything right down to individual commands and spells, whether or not they target singular or AoE etc., and the growth of all these individual things too. I love the job system but it is restrictive in ways, only allowing you to crossover ONE ability from other classes. It should have been one passive ability and one command ability. Freelancer aspect is cool too and grants more freedom but by the time that becomes relevant the game is over, is hardly a point to doing it. If I recall it's only relevant for one super boss.

Vanilla I'd say V battle maybe/probably beats 7 overall, because 5 actually has adequate challenge for all the nuances to apply. Hardtype romhack though, 7's materia system becomes something else.

So yeah, I'm not gonna shut up about the monocled versions of these games until you guys play them.

Freedom? yes, but the job system is just way more fun and the combat has more challenge, as you say. I like the Materia system, but it's made largely irrelevant by OP summons and breezy opponents. Finding the balance between beating your there-opponents whilst making sure you level up jobs sufficiently for future battles in FF5 is way more interesting in my book.

But I am talking vanilla of course.

 

[Ash]

10 Monster arena is the most grindy FF ever got before 12. The battle system is also grindy at its core with the way xp is distributed + the overkill feature. Lastly, to get anything out of the sphere grid mass-late game grinding is very much required. 10 and 12 are the most grindy FF bar none. 5 is a little grindy too but less so and excels at making the grind enjoyable.

Every 2 battles to 9's one. It's slow but not THAT slow.

9's systems do not demand this at all. Just fight the battles as they come, do the optional side shit (including throwing gemstones at friendly monsters side quest for lots of AP), manage equipment well for optimal learning, and maybe throw in 1 extra battle per location for good measure. Maybe a little, brief session of high AP enemy grinding late game to lock in a few abilities. It's not grindy at all by comparison.

 

[Ash]

I'm sure there's nostalgia influencing me here, but I think the SNES era graphics of 4-6 have aged much more gracefully than the PS1 era graphics of 7-9. The pre-rendered backgrounds of the PS1 era always look great, but the character models are those blocky early 3D models that don't look as nice as the sprites.

"no PERFECT Final Fantasy"

5-9 are all perfect in their own way with romhacks.

I'm all for using romhacks/mods, especially when it's an old game that falls short in one or two areas but is otherwise excellent. But it's only a short jump from this sentiment to "Skyrim is perfect once you overhaul all of its systems with Requiem". It's important to remember games as they exist out of the box, independent of any third party modifications.

Yeah, I agree mostly, I think most of us played those classic (I to X, probably) in vanilla purest form, with all the bugs, glitch, crappy translation...

This is really difficult to rank all those games almost 30 years later, without considering every technical, hardware or production factor (and our own lives, age first time played, first RPG etc)

I'm playing FFVII right now on my Android TV (without any added hardware, just through TV Android system, Retroarch and PS1 emulation, works great without adding shaders/filters by the way ) and those 3d sprites...OMG this is really terrible, particularly when compared with those beautiful pre-rendered backgrounds.

It is inexcusable and very casual of you as a returning player to not be playing with this: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/828/

Also they're 3D models, not sprites. Just so you know And they're charming if nothing else. Better than modern shit where every single game looks the same as one another, and far more visually interesting than the godawful FF7 remake. They also have value in their exaggerated animations for comedic effect that cannot be attained with life-like graphics.

Oh, and from the description:

In this version of Final Fantasy VII you will need every inch of fury in the limit bar, you will need the most powerful protective spells the game has to offer and you will need to call forth your most devastating summons - not because they look cool, but just to stay alive.

Don't be concerned by this. It is challenging for sure but not to the implied degree...well, maybe, if you do absolutely zero grinding and/or side content and have fuck all understanding of the game's systems. I just found it equivalent to what would be appropriate for an official hard mode. Furthermore, very little summoning is necessary. Why? Enemy skills and such have the same results with shorter animations. There are definitely times where a summon is necessary as it should be, but like the vanilla game they can still mostly be ignored so as to not waste time with lengthy animations. They hog too much MP anyway.

 

[Johnny Rico]

Also they're 3D models, not sprites. Just so you know

I was probably drunk when writing this, thanks for the correction

 

[Ash]

That isn't important. The correction needed is to play with Hardtype.

Also, 90s FF love, Starship Troopers name, Deus Ex avatar. You're off to a great start in my book! 90s and immediately surrounding years will forever be the king of entertainment.

 

[Johnny Rico]

That isn't important. The correction needed is to play with Hardtype.

Also, 90s FF love, Starship Troopers name, Deus Ex avatar. You're off to a great start in my book! 90s and immediately surrounding years will forever be the king of entertainment.

My pleasure, sir

 

[Butter]

Oh, and from the description:

In this version of Final Fantasy VII you will need every inch of fury in the limit bar, you will need the most powerful protective spells the game has to offer and you will need to call forth your most devastating summons - not because they look cool, but just to stay alive.

Don't be concerned by this. It is challenging for sure but not to the implied degree...well, maybe, if you do absolutely zero grinding and/or side content and have fuck all understanding of the game's systems. I just found it equivalent to what would be appropriate for an official hard mode. Furthermore, very little summoning is necessary. Why? Enemy skills and such have the same results with shorter animations. There are definitely times where a summon is necessary as it should be, but like the vanilla game they can still mostly be ignored so as to not waste time with lengthy animations. They hog too much MP anyway.

Yeah, my concern with some of these difficulty romhacks is that they'd descend into classic modder autism and make the games virtually impossible. It's weird that these games don't come with a Hard mode (I'd be tilted if I designed those intricate systems that people can freely ignore because the games are so easy), but that's more or less all modders need to add.

 

[Ash]

That's more or less what they are.

I beat them all and it didn't take many deaths. No glitches or meta strategies. No deep dive. I just played the game as a vet and had a great time. It took strategy and smart play for sure, that is precisely what we want, but no autism applies.

Well, not quite true, I didn't beat them all. I gave up on Ultimacea (8) and Necron (9). But they're the very end bosses so...I basically consider the game and my enjoyment with it done and just moved on to another game no sweat off my back. I also didn't bother with some super bosses (Ruby (7), Omega (8) Hades (9)). Those challenges are there for those that want them, they were necessary vanilla because combat challenge was sparse otherwise, but here now that everything is challenging and thoughtful, you certainly get your fill. These super bosses go into autism + mass grinding territory and that's fine. I will happily skip them and walk away 100% satisfied. I did all the other optional and mandatory bosses, and they were all very fun and tough to a reasonable standard. But my patience for grinding or breeding gold chocobos and other late game autist shit has its limits.

I don't recall if I 100% romhacked 6 or not. But either way the only true insane challenges with these hacks are the super bosses, and sometimes the end bosses. So basically get that far, try, die, and call it a day. If you got this far you''ve already basically beat the game, had plenty fulfillment, and now understand the glory of these hacks and the true potential of 90s FF. No need to go all the way into the autism realm.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Rydia is a CHILD!

I remember being vaguely confused and annoyed at her showing up as an adult at dwarf castle. I wonder if they properly explained her growing up in the fae realm in the original text and it was just left out as part of the shoddy translation?

Anyways best female in the series is in fact a child, but it's definitely Porom. Good girl makes sure that her brat of a brother behaves himself and they sacrifice themselves to save the party in their darkest hour.

I'm pretty sure it's mentioned that time flows differently whatever whatever in the Mist Realm in the English translation (been years since I've played it), but... Rydia is a child. Don't care.

Like, if you're hanging out with someone's orphaned kid and helping take care of her and then she disappears for a month and comes back as a young "adult" due to fantasy bullshit, you don't suddenly go: oh, ok, we should bang. --> She's a kid.

The protagonist of Final Fantasy IV doesn't evince any romantic interest in grown-up Rydia, instead remaining completely faithful to Rosa; however, it isn't long after the appearance of adult Rydia that Edge is introduced and soon begins unsuccessfully hitting on Rydia, a one-sided love interest maintained through the game's epilogue. Also, that costume of adult Rydia is more or less canon:

Concept art by Yoshitaka Amano and (much later) Akira Oguro.

SNES era graphics of 4-6 have aged much more gracefully than the PS1 era graphics of 7-9

Very true. Something I've said many times, 16bit graphics have aged better than early 3d.

2D graphics in general age far better than 3D graphics, a discussion that has been held elsewhere on the Codex. Earlier 3D games being the most primitive, they seem to have aged the worst (excepting a few games that use interesting aesthetic techniques), but this is simply a matter of how much 3D graphics have progressed since then, in terms of number of polygons used for meshes, resolution of textures, shading, and various other aspects.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Even putting age aside, I remember being pretty unimpressed by early 3D even back when it first came out. Sure it was cool to have 3D gameplay in like, goldeneye or whatever, and the FMVs looked pretty decent back then (and still kind of hold up) but I remember thinking that games like Valkyrie Profile, Saga Frontier and BoF3 looked way, WAY better than their fully 3D counterparts. Not to mention all the growing pains of early 3D action games, like the crappy 3D castlevanias or DMC's bizarre tank controls in a hack and slash game. Honestly I didn't think it really looked good until the PS2 era and cel shading started to be a thing.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Very comprehensive, Mr. Z. And yet...

Pedophile says what?

The protagonist of Final Fantasy IV and his relationship with Rydia: in the following essay, I will delve into why lusting after anime children isn't weird, etc.

 

[Ash]

Even putting age aside, I remember being pretty unimpressed by early 3D even back when it first came out. Sure it was cool to have 3D gameplay in like, goldeneye or whatever, and the FMVs looked pretty decent back then (and still kind of hold up) but I remember thinking that games like Valkyrie Profile, Saga Frontier and BoF3 looked way, WAY better than their fully 3D counterparts. Not to mention all the growing pains of early 3D action games, like the crappy 3D castlevanias or DMC's bizarre tank controls in a hack and slash game. Honestly I didn't think it really looked good until the PS2 era and cel shading started to be a thing.

Bro, early 3D isn't remarkable for Goldeneye LOL. that's mediocrity incarnate and barely even makes use of 3D gameplay (mostly flat plane level design no elevation differences, no jumping, almost never need to look up or down). You lack exposure. It's remarkable for Doom, System Shock 2, Tomb Raider, Brahma Force, Quake, DMC, Deus Ex, Half-Life, Vagrant Story, Duke Nukem 3D, Spyro The Dragon, Ultima Underworld and many, many more, hundreds more - all games that understood the assignment: to sacrifice 2D visual supremacy for three dimensional gameplay. As for 90s FF, FMVs aren't really true 3D graphics as games define them, but commonly 2D pre-renderings of 3D environments. Still rigid in that you the player cannot dynamically manipulate the images and what is drawn doesn't need constant re-rendering w/ complex calculations every frame because the camera angle changed by 1 degree. It's pre-rendered, so not true 3D graphics. They still remain predominantly 2D games, except for battle graphics mainly. which yeah, unremarkable but it's not like most 2D JRPGs had amazing battle graphics anyway. Not any at all, except maybe golden sun. Most are fucking ugly. FF6 is one of the best and even that still has a wart or two (character sprites clash with the super nice high detail enemies, and lack of enemy animations) It wasn't until X that FF became predominantly 3D and it sucked for it, especially because it doesn't at all make use of 3 dimensional gameplay which should be the entire point.

As for the "growing pains" - 3D castlevania was shit and was never not shit some 8 games later, so no growth to speak of, but rather simply dev inadequacy. Most games however benefitted massively from 3D in the gameplay department. DMC doesn't have tank controls lol, and its unique and (good) style of gameplay simply cannot be replicated w/ 2D, and still has merit now. It also didn't move away from its particular style of control until DMC reboot, and that game sucked hard. There is very little wrong with the original DMC's controls. Not perfect for sure, but also not something that strictly needed to be moved away from at all costs either or greatly hindered the experience.

Early 3D is glorious, and the perfect era of gaming (especially in part because 2D was still around a great deal, from FF to Resident Evil to Fallout to Castlevania SOTN). Graphics hadn't got absurdly expensive and labor intensive yet so gameplay, art direction, sound and story (the things that actually matter) were the focus and creativity was allowed. anyone that says otherwise simply lacks perspective; didn't play the correct games. But it's not like a devout JRPG fan that likes barebones boring shit like CT, Suikoden and FF4 could understand.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Could have sworn DMC had those weird tank controls from RE. Must have mixed it up with something else. What was that samurai game that was basically like dark souls but crap? Onimusha? I remember there being some game of the era that had them and definitely should not have.

Now that I think about it, DMC had the weird half-step tank controls, where the transitions between fixed camera points would maintain your movement direction, so you'd end up with weird shit like moving left while holding right.

Also Vagrant Story was ass. Super Mario RPG made better use of 3D despite being a 2D game. And was a better RPG as well.

 

[Ash]

Now that I think about it, DMC had the weird half-step tank controls, where the transitions between fixed camera points would maintain your movement direction, so you'd end up with weird shit like moving left while holding right.

This is also not a trait of tank controls. DMC controls are completely different to tank controls, zero relation. Stick to the JRPGs eh. But yeah, this is largely the only real flaw of DMC style controls, yet it's not a big deal.

Tank controls = Move forward/backwards. Left and right to rotate. Like a tank (and almost like a car). It's always relative to the player too, never the camera.
DMC = Left analog stick to move Dante in any given direction relative to the camera. And no rotation control. this does indeed result in a new zero point being set every new camera angle and fucking with control. again, not a huge deal at all though. Cumbersome, but the number of times it will actually cause combat problems is minimal. Platforming it can be a little more conflicting with, but just get good.

Onimusha also doesn't have tank controls, but DMC-style controls. It was also a fairly decent game, nothing special at first, but pretty great in the case of one or two entries.
Perhaps you are thinking of Ronin Blade a.k.a Soul of the Samurai. that did indeed have tank controls. Not a great game.

No strong opposition regarding Vagrant Story. I like it a lot, including its use of 3D (platforming, box stacking puzzles etc), but despite liking almost all elements of it I always stop playing it before completion. And I don't do that with ANY other game I like. The RPG systems and clunky combat rules is likely the primary reason why.

Not played Super Mario RPG. Probably wont ever unless it happens to have really, REALLY great gameplay. Because the setting/themes/art etc are rudimentary and dont lend themselves well to an RPG at all. Mario is supposed to be all about the gameplay. Perhaps Mario RPG is heavily gameplayfag? Does it incorporate platforming? All I know about it is the combat is dead-simple, which isn't promising.

 

[Johnny Rico]

Never played Super Mario RPG too, isn't the battle system early stage of what will be used later on Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga on GBA ?

...Because this is a fucking great game, for sure, on almost every point...

 

[mediocrepoet]

I rented and beat Super Mario RPG back on the SNES, so forever ago. All I remember is I thought it was amazing. I've been looking forward to checking out the remake to see what I think now.

It was like this weird fusion of Mario and some Square/FF JRPG gameplay tropes. 100% awesome.

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

There's early 3D like Tomb Raider, Mario 64, Soul Reaver, Thief, etc. and then there's early 3D like Little Big Adventure, Ecstatica, Alone in the Dark, etc. which is what comes to mind when I hear the term. Almost all the innovation occurred around this period. Starting around 1996 or so you have games that are pretty much modern with everything you'd expect from a 3D game.

 

[Ash]

For sure. Truly early 3D was a bit rough. Not many great 3D games 1990-1995. Most of the best games are 2D here. But for the late 90s, things were different..

 

[Johnny Rico]

By the way, I just cited FF VIII about that, but did you talk about best FF OST ?

(...)

You're WRONG, best one is Mitsuda's Xenogears

 

[Ash]

Xenogears shouldn't be lumped in with FF. It's yet another storyfag snoozefest fake RPG. The music is indeed nice though, and obviously is inspired by FF's genius. And that's another reason why it shouldn't - if it isn't Uematsu, it's not FF.

Best FF soundtrack is impossible to determine. Again, incomprehensible to choose any game from 5-9 over the other. They are all extraordinary and within a league of their own. I am not aware of any other game soundtrack spanning anywhere close to 5 hours.



Wait, maybe it's 9 as the best. 5 hours is probably the record, and there's a lot of great shit here.

mediocrepoet Grampy_Bone Damned Registrations JDR13

Replay FF9. With the romhack: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/2927/
You're just wrong about it. It is Square's swan song. It has flaws, one fairly big one (battle speed, which FFT also suffers from), but they don't take away from its overall status alongside the series' greats.
The game is pure soulful interactive art.

The swan song (Ancient Greek: κύκνειον ᾆσμα; Latin: carmen cygni) is a metaphorical phrase for a final gesture, effort, or performance given just before death or retirement.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

As for 90s FF, FMVs aren't really true 3D graphics as games define them, but commonly 2D pre-renderings of 3D environments. Still rigid in that you the player cannot dynamically manipulate the images and what is drawn doesn't need constant re-rendering w/ complex calculations every frame because the camera angle changed by 1 degree. It's pre-rendered, so not true 3D graphics.

Full-Motion Video, strictly speaking, indicates the pre-recorded visual sequences, such as those used for cutscenes from FFVII onward, made possible by the storage spaces of CDs versus the cartridges of earlier console generations. FMVs are more commonly associated with games that relied on recorded video of actual actors and locations, but it also applies to pre-recorded computer graphics. The latter are true 3D graphics in themselves but have zero interactibility or gameplay. The pre-rendered backgrounds are similarly created with 3D graphics but used in the game merely as static 2D images of those 3D models, for the three Final Fantasies on the original Playstation.

They still remain predominantly 2D games, except for battle graphics mainly. which yeah, unremarkable but it's not like most 2D JRPGs had amazing battle graphics anyway. Not any at all, except maybe golden sun. Most are fucking ugly. FF6 is one of the best and even that still has a wart or two (character sprites clash with the super nice high detail enemies, and lack of enemy animations) It wasn't until X that FF became predominantly 3D and it sucked for it, especially because it doesn't at all make use of 3 dimensional gameplay which should be the entire point.

For the Final Fantasy series, the purpose of 3D wasn't to achieve better, or even different, gameplay, but rather to provide visual spectacle. As much as I've always derided Final Fantasy VII for being the first ugly entry in the FF series, it certainly impressed millions at the time, due to the 3D-created FMV cutscenes, the pre-rendered 2D images of 3D models used for backgrounds in exploration mode, and the fully-3D graphics of the battle mode. FFVIII and FFIX were a dramatic improvement visually. FFX being fully 3D didn't add anything to gameplay, but that aspect of the game did impress many at the time, though probably less so than the more advanced FMV cutscene graphics made possible by the Playstation 2.