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Bioshock ain't that bad...

passerby

Arcane
Joined
Nov 16, 2016
Messages
2,788
-Wielding plasmids and guns at the same time
-Recorder instead of camera
There was no hint of deliberation about this in bio1, it was just annoying, especially camera grind. These changes made it a better action game.

-No tonic restrictions: No restrictions, need i say more?
-no more backtracking to previous areas, and the maps are built with that in mind.
I agree, but the levels were slightly bigger and there was backtracking within the levels.

On the other hand, level design and combat encounter design were better. DLC levels were even better than the base game.
I remember clearly enjoying bio2 more than bio1.
 
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Mexi

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck
Joined
Jan 6, 2015
Messages
6,811
I couldn't finish it. I thought it was boring as shit. I stopped very near the end. I mean I got really far before I just couldn't take it anymore. Combat and setting is boring as hell.

Best part was the golf club scene or whatever that was, but the rest was just so fucking boring.
 

Master

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 19, 2016
Messages
1,160
-Wielding plasmids and guns at the same time
-Recorder instead of camera
There was no hint of deliberation about this in bio1, it was just annoying, especially camera grind. These changes made it a better action game.


How there isn't? All plasmids have a fairly specific use. The simple fact that switching takes a full second instantly puts you at a disadvantage, hence some thinking is required...
How is the action better? Its the same, you do the same shit, it just takes more player input in BS1... If that is "annoying", then SS2 is fucking unplayable.
 

ciox

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 9, 2016
Messages
1,413
It's pretty bad, and the mods are not that great either.
Even with my ultra mod that I never released, it's still bad.
They gutted too much out of it, it was a fantastic concept at first that still had skills/attributes to a degree and real mechanics, but that's all over now.

 

ciox

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 9, 2016
Messages
1,413
Holy shit, man. Please release this mod.

Mod support and release is a shitshow, but I'll throw something up if you want to play it.

You basically have to press a key after every reload or level change, otherwise the mod changes fade away, since they're a bunch of macro console command hacks that aren't persistent.
 

Master

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 19, 2016
Messages
1,160
If you have it i will play it. I will start a new game if its necessary.
Vita chambers costing money like in SS2, everything costing money/nanites like in SS2 - why the fuck nobody made something like that earlier?
 

TheHeroOfTime

Arcane
Joined
Nov 3, 2014
Messages
2,969
Location
S-pain
Bioshock is a decent for storyfags. But they are worse than System shock in every level.

Did you saw what I did here, HUH??
 

ciox

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 9, 2016
Messages
1,413
If you have it i will play it. I will start a new game if its necessary.
Vita chambers costing money like in SS2, everything costing money/nanites like in SS2 - why the fuck nobody made something like that earlier?

Because to create a more advanced mod you have to comb through nearly unreadable decompiled source code and literally blind guess variable and object names in order to create hacks, it gets pretty absurd how mod unfriendly the game is.
 
Joined
May 4, 2017
Messages
639
Play Bioshock with silver mod version 7 or 7.2. Your choice.

Then play it no reload.

That's the way I enjoy it.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,888
In BS1 having to switch between them gave a *hint* of deliberation and planning to otherwise shitty encounters. Of course,
There's hardly any planning involved in Bio1. You either come across a lone enemy who doesn't need it, or you get swarmed by a bunch out of the blue. The result is that plasmids hardly get used at all.

In BS1 you were vulnerable during taking these shots.

Taking a picture during combat is foolish, unless you've stunned/frozen 'em first, in which case you're not vulnerable. And of course this is very repetitious, which the recorder avoids.

No restrictions, need i say more?

More build possibilities = better

there is no more backtracking to previous areas

This is the first time I've seen "backtracking" used as a positive. As sea put it

The pacing on the high level is the easier thing to point out, but it’s only accountable for some of the momentum that BioShock 2 has over its predecessor. When examining levels on a micro level, it’s very clear that the designers looked at things a little bit more intelligently. Like BioShock, the game is broken up into a series of levels connected by a transportation service – this time a decommissioned rail line. Where it really differs is in the narrative that forms in each individual level. There is a certain flow to events that was completely lacking in the first BioShock.

To compare: in BioShock, the process for playing through a level was as follows:

  1. Player arrives in the level and receives a radio order of where to go/what to do
  2. Player reaches goal only to find that there is an obstacle in the way of it
  3. Player must explore the remainder of the level to collect various MacGuffins, usually involving lots of backtracking
  4. Once all are collected, player must return to goal and move on
  5. At this point, usually Big Daddies/Little Sisters appear in earnest and if the player wants to find them all, it’s yet more backtracking
  6. Player reaches exit and may or may not be met with another problem that halts progress, and requires yet more backtracking
The problem with this formula was, while it allowed for players to explore the environment at their leisure, it also created a lot of retracing the same old steps through the same hallways and level hubs, a lot of exploration of pointless side-passages which held nothing but more useless loot, and generally made the player’s supposedly rushed and time-critical journey feel more like a casual stroll through Rapture. Then, in most cases, when the player had collected the MacGuffins and completed the objective, he or she would, rather than be rewarded, instead see a plot-critical character get killed off, or his or her efforts thwarted by Andrew Ryan. Rather than accomplishment, moving forward in BioShock seemed more dependent on various NPCs getting bored with screwing the player up, and less dependent on the player’s actual exploits.

BioShock 2, by contrast, does a much better job of not only making the player feeling like he or she has accomplished something during gameplay, but creates a real mini-narrative within every level, which goes a long way towards keeping the action flowing well. Consider the process as modified in BioShock 2:

  1. Player arrives in the level via train and receives a radio order of where to go/what to do
  2. Player explores the level, usually with fewer enemies present and gets a feel for what it looks like/how it’s laid out
  3. Player is drawn to all corners of the level by the different goals
  4. During stage 3, the player has a chance to rescue/harvest Little Sisters, resulting in many panicked fights which require more strategy and planning than usual
  5. Once player is done harvesting, a Big Sister boss fight occurs
  6. Player returns to train station once goals are complete (usually provided with a new shortcut back), boards the train and moves to the next level
The most noticeable difference here is that BioShock 2 features significantly less backtracking: once you’ve explored one section of a level, it’s time to move on. It’s not fun to feel led around by the nose, and BioShock did plenty of that in spite of its slightly more open level design. As a result, BioShock 2 allows for much more economical use of its levels: while there are the occasional hidden places to explore (Siren’s Alley is the closest thing to Fort Frolic), almost every room in every level has a purpose related to the player’s goals. The player is rarely or never interrupted by characters throwing new (and largely ineffectual) obstacles in the way, and rarely has that feeling of “where do I go next? Why am I here?” that plagued a lot of BioShock, even its best parts.
 

ciox

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 9, 2016
Messages
1,413
Look, Bioshock 2 at the end of the day throws even more rote repetitive shit at you than the original - which already has a relentlessly rote flow of loot container -> listen log -> fight drill or rivet daddy - while fixing very little of the CRITICAL flaws related to lack of character build expression and lack of resource management.

Fight repetition: in 1 you have to deal with rote big daddy fights, in 2 you have the big daddy fights, the exactly predictable splicer gauntlets while harvesting, and the identical big sister fights. so you have this entire repetition phalanx of big daddy -> trash mob tower defense -> big sister that specializes in unavoidable damage
Research system: removes the film resource entirely instead of fixing the resource balance around film being too easy to acquire, still has you messing around with a camera weapon all the time instead of having a dedicated "start research" key, important research rewards like useful tonics are given much later in 2 for less build freedom
Hacking: shorter puzzle, but there is still no resource management or real character building tied to hacking. and there is even more shit to hack now, and even more incentive to hack every single thing for free without even speccing as a hacker (blue bonus often gives you free shit.)
 

Gerrard

Arcane
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
12,961
After FEAR and Crysis 1, are there any non-mp exclusive shooters that aren't fucking garbage? Compared to nuDoom/Wolf, Bioshock doesn't look as bad. Still pretty "meh", but not "escort lampshade girl while she whines nonstop" tiers of bad.

Any hint of a "fps Renaissance" any time soon?
Are you implying that Crysis 1 wasn't fucking garbage?
 

Zenith

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 26, 2017
Messages
296
What the fuck is this thread, somebody actually unironically defending the DNA camera? Enemy pops out of a closet: smile for the picture. Time stops, some abstract grading on screen, upgrades appear out of thin air - all that in a supposedly immersive game.
Plasmids with specific and tactical use? What? Most of them are just damage+stun, and since shock stuns turrets and cameras you only ever use that, plus keep flame as secondary to avoid backtracking in case of "environmental puzzles".

Dunno what's up with people claiming Necrovision is good either, are you sure it's your actual opinion and not just having memory of a fish, influenced by Mandalore's review? The way I remember it, first half was kind of boring and sparse, then second half was just mindlessly meleeing swarms of enemies while emitting magic explosions every second. Plus the busywork with challenges. I wasn't impressed.
 

Master

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 19, 2016
Messages
1,160
There's hardly any planning involved in Bio1. You either come across a lone enemy who doesn't need it, or you get swarmed by a bunch out of the blue. The result is that plasmids hardly get used at all.
Not sure what you mean by any of this.
I was talking about what happens during combat. In BS1 in combat you either wield a plasmid or a gun, but not both which requires some "deliberation" as in you have to consciously commit to either one and cant just spam attacks. Thats all. Its not some big game breaking deal but its noticeable if you play both games back to back how this small "think before you act" process is absent in BS2.
As for enemies... You actually rarely come across a single solitary enemy. They usually wander around in twos. If its just one then its most often one of the tougher ones like a grenade thrower or a bot controler.

Taking a picture during combat is foolish, unless you've stunned/frozen 'em first, in which case you're not vulnerable. And of course this is very repetitious, which the recorder avoids.
Do you really not see what this mechanic is about - risk/reward? And how BS2 removes it? You might as well say that combat is foolish in general unless the enemy is already dead.
Really, sometimes you remind me of Data from the early seasons of TNG, before he got to understand human emotions better.
"Captain, taking a picture during combat is foolish, unless you've stunned/frozen 'em first, in which case you're not vulnerable. And of course this is very repetitious, which the recorder avoids."

More build possibilities = better
If there are no restrictions, then there are no builds.


This is the first time I've seen "backtracking" used as a positive. As sea put it

sea is usually a good poster... Not sure what happened there. I could completely destroy his post point by point but suffice to say that:

backtracking in a closed environment is a normal consequence of exploration. Of course you are going to have backtracking in a closed environment if said environment is to be anything other than a CoD corridor. What sea has a problem with, he even says it himself - its pointless loot. In fact every mechanic the game (unmodded) has is pointless. Let me say it this way:
if backtracking sucks in a game, that just means the game has a problem somewhere else. Bioshock is full of problems but they seem to be fixable. BS2 otoh instead of making loot matter, making death consequential, making builds matter, instead just has last traces of exploration surgically removed so as not to bother the player with "pointless backtracking". Well of course its pointless, they made it that way, mechanically. FFS you cant die in the game. This didnt ring a bell for them.
 

udm

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 14, 2008
Messages
2,921
Make the Codex Great Again!
Crysis 1 was good for what it was. I appreciated how sandboxy encounters were. So many ways to tackle an enemy patrol/encampment. :love:

Then the 2nd half happened.
 

Eyestabber

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
4,733
Location
HUEland
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
To think STALKER was also released in 07, same year as Crysis. Even if you consider Necrovision (neither agreeing nor disagreeing with roxor, I need to play the game to be certain), and Wolf '09, you're still left with the conclusion that the genre has been dead for almost a decade.

Edit: and I find Wolf 09 to be pretty "meh". I had to Google because that's how memorable the game was. Fps with a story were a mistake. FEAR did it right and then botched it on the sequels.
 
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Falksi

Arcane
Joined
Feb 14, 2017
Messages
11,077
Location
Nottingham
Bioshock was just pointless more than anything. A dull endless ammo hunt with pointless piss-easy combat & gameplay, and a story which wasn't as interesting as they claim.

Would like to give Bioshock 2 another go though. Didn't enjoy it on first play, but worth another blast.
 
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
7,651
I couldn't stand more than hour and a half of Bioshock 2 either. I couldn't be arsed to try and understand what was such a big improvement there, I just wasn't having a good time.
 

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