Bioshock Infinite - the $200 million 6 hour literally on rails interactive movie with guns thread

[DalekFlay]

Well, at least you admit it. I get the impression that Codexers' hate for anything popular Bioshock is causing them to make a bigger deal of this than it really is; if something they liked looked similar to an ancient Japanese magazine cover, I suspect they'd be a lot more lenient.

A lot of people in this thread hate Bioshock because they see it as Lib/Commie propaganda. They can't really be reasoned with.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

i hate bioshock because it sucks cocks.
i couldn't care less about its retarded, ham fisted approach to anything else other than the cock-sucker gameplay.

 

[Ninjerk]

By the virtue of what is it art, exactly?

I would define art as "anything that sentient beings create for reasons other than their own immediate survival." It is admittedly a very broad definition.

A more conventional definition of art:

2art
noun \ˈärt\
: something that is created with imagination and skill and that is beautiful or that expresses important ideas or feelings

: works created by artists : paintings, sculptures, etc., that are created to be beautiful or to express important ideas or feelings

: the methods and skills used for painting, sculpting, drawing, etc.

Bioshock would be covered by the first and possibly second definitions. You might not think that it is created with imagination and skill, is beautiful, or expresses important ideas or feelings, but some people do.

The postmodern definition of art, and the one that art institutions and critics at large likely use, excludes the beauty, skill, and expressive requirements.

 

[Dexter]

I don't get what you people are talking about, someone dug out a magazine cover for an obscure Japanese magazine 7 years after a game's release that kind of seems similar and everyone suddenly gets the idea that he somehow stole the idea from there? That it took 7 years for somebody to make that connection should tell you more than enough just about how obscure and unlikely this is.

Also the first Bioshock was still kinda good.

 

[aris]

There's nothing controversial about this at all, you retard. Even if the resemblance isn't coincidental, which it might very well be, there are thousands of other examples of this. See Starcraft and warhammer.

I'm like 95% sure this is a coincidence but Blizzard heavily ripping off Warcraft from WFB and Starcraft from 40k is not even a question bro

Absolutely, no doubt about starcraft ripping off 40k. And that's my point, this is normal business and hardly controversial, especially with that cover and bioshock where the resemblance is WAAAAAAY less striking.

 

[aris]

There's nothing controversial about this at all, you retard. Even if the resemblance isn't coincidental, which it might very well be, there are thousands of other examples of this. See Starcraft and warhammer.

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/EA...-C-C-Tiberium-Alliances-Tank-Issue-41416.html

GameSpot originally did some legwork and pieced two-and-two together to find out that a tank design in Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances looked dead-on identical to a tank from Warhammer 40,000. Well, Games Workshop and EA have worked out the differences and there's no longer a reason to panic.

According to GameSpot, an EA representative actually did get back in touch with them regarding the issue and sprouted off the following explanation...

"Games Workshop and EA are aware of the IP issues around the artwork in question, which have now been resolved," .... "The artwork was internal EA concept art that was unintentionally released publicly. No Warhammer 40,000 tanks have ever made an appearance in Command and Conquer: Tiberium Alliances, and never will. Games Workshop and EA continue to have a strong relationship working together on Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning and the new free to play game Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes which just entered open beta."


So there you have it...EA was never in the wrong, it was just some internal artwork that leaked and somehow got out into the public promotional sphere and then all kinds of legal talk started churning up about how Games Workshop was going to sue EA into oblivion (although I actually think it's just jaded gamers who felt like this and wanted some justice handed out to the seemingly untouchable publishing giant). When in reality EA supposedly never had plans to use those designs in the game itself.

In the end, like all cases involving EA and some sort of nefarious scheme, their hands are now clean (for the time being) and they're absolved of the plagiarism charges. We'll just have to go back up into our sniper perches and look out for more stuff to pin on EA as it arrives, but they sure are good at finding PR cover.

Here's one of many games workshop lawsuits. If anything this is way more specific. Not only is the girl very similar but the girl plus diving suit combo eliminates any doubt this was the "inspiration". This is actually a much better case than the games workshop one. And much more serious theft because it was such a centerpiece for them.

Whoever made that art has a great case. Of course they could be dead by now since it's over 40 years old.

I completely disagree, the resemblance is way too subtle to be ruled out as non-coincidental. People tend to have similar ideas, many inventions have been found by many people independently of eachother. It might be that levine got this directly from this cover, but it might as well be a completely coincidental resemblance.

 

[Pantalones]

I don't get what you people are talking about, someone dug out a magazine cover for an obscure Japanese magazine 7 years after a game's release that kind of seems similar and everyone suddenly gets the idea that he somehow stole the idea from there? That it took 7 years for somebody to make that connection should tell you more than enough just about how obscure and unlikely this is.

Also the first Bioshock was still kinda good.

Going through old art is where most inspiration comes from. In this case I think it's way too much of a ripoff to be mere inspiration because it's taking full-fledged characters not just some basic design features like in the games workshop case. How many ways can you make a tank after all? Though obviously that's kind of subjective since guodoist for example feels the opposite.

 

[aris]

What are these striking similarities here? There is a man and a girl, the man in a pressure suit. The similarities stop there, and there are more than enough difference to say that one inspired the other, and this does not enter into copyright infringement territory in any way. If you're going to call such superficial similarities rip offs, then you might as well say that every panting of a woman posing, is a ripoff.

These, my gentlemen,

Are both ripoffs, because they contain posing women.

There are many quite valid criticisms of BI:I, but this one is downright silly.

 

[Angthoron]

http://www.ibtimes.com/finnair-flies-plagiarism-scandal-thanks-marimekko-designer-1287633

Do yourself a favor and shut up, gaudaost.

 

[aris]

Yes, I should shut up because of a completely unrelated case, the two of which are hardly comparable.

Look, even if Levine did see this cover, and say "Hey that looks cool, let me make something very similar for my next game", there are more than enough differences in the design between the two, that there is no way that this could ever be considered copyright infringement.

I understand that your hatred makes you blind, but do I really need to point out these blatantly obvious differences?

Conceptual likeness isn't enough to be called a rip-off.

 

[Angthoron]

We were talking about the particular images used. You waltzed in and started telling how it's impossible, and how two highly similar images cannot be case for plagiarism. I understand, your desire to be contrarian makes you blind, I mean, we all remember your previous threads, but you do understand the principles that separate a homage, a reference and a plagiarism, right? If not, you might not want to post unrelated huge-ass art scans that look nothing like the other while trying to support your rather inane argument.

The designer in the link provided above didn't understand the difference between referencing and lifting either, and suffered a pretty heavy media backlash. Plagiarism claims in creative and academic circles are actually a pretty heavy thing.

Also, you mention BS: I. The images reference BS 1 and more directly BS 2. Sup?

 

[Major_Blackhart]

It's one thing to be inspired by something and then acknowledge it. That would be fine.
It's another thing to take from something and then refuse to acknowledge it. That is not fine. That is what Ken Levine is doing.

 

[aris]

They aren't highly similar. They are conceptually similar, but concepts can't and should not be subject to copyrights, and doing something conceptually similar is not plagiarism. The design of the two conceptually similar images are different in almost every possible way. Case in point: The pressure suits, which both men wear, have virtually nothing in common when it comes to design besides them having the characteristics of a pressure suit. Again, this is like saying that every painting of an urban landscape ever, are plagiarisms of eachother, because they are conceptually similar.

 

[Angthoron]

It's one thing to be inspired by something and then acknowledge it. That would be fine.
It's another thing to take from something and then refuse to acknowledge it. That is not fine. That is what Ken Levine is doing.

Presuming this would be the case with the image, this is the point, yes.

It totally can be a freak coincidence, too, after all, there are several iterations of the designs of earlier pair-ups, however, it's quite a leap from a bunny and a guy in body armor, so I'd not be surprised if some designer saw the image somehow and thought it was an amazingly striking image. After all, I understand their design team went through a lot of sci-fi for ideas and inspirations, wouldn't be a shocker if they'd go through Japanese dime store publications. Of course, after all the media went into a furious fap mode over the image, the designer may have forgotten to mention the inspiration, and thus committed plagiarism.

Again, presuming they researched sci-fi and various periods for their work *cough*

They aren't highly similar. They are conceptually similar, but concepts can't and should not be subject to copyrights, and doing something conceptually similar is not plagiarism. The design of the two conceptually similar images are different in almost every possible way.

Yes, well, I could write a novel about mythical creatures called thobbits that have grassy feet, and whose peaceful existence in a pretty place known as The Meadow suddenly ends as the Gloomy Boss decides to take over the world; one of the throbbits comes in a possession of a magical femur that he must take to a crater in the middle of the enemy wasteland, and once he'll do this, the world will be saved.

This is nothing like Lord of the Rings, see? Not a shred of similarity.

 

[Turjan]

It's one thing to be inspired by something and then acknowledge it. That would be fine.
It's another thing to take from something and then refuse to acknowledge it. That is not fine. That is what Ken Levine is doing.

Quite the opposite. Acknowledging this at this stage would be incredibly stupid. It opens you up to a lawsuit.

I'm not sure in which world you live.

 

[Angthoron]

Quite the opposite. Acknowledging this at this stage would be incredibly stupid. It opens you up to a lawsuit.

I'm not sure in which world you live.

Yes, now it would. Originally, it wouldn't have. Which's why even if it was, Ken's reply will never, ever be that yes, we took that image and rolled with it.

Although that cover might well be public domain by now, so nobody might actually even care. I dunno how cover art copyrights in Japan of all places work.

In any case, it's speculation. Someone might want to do something with it, like the original artwork owner, or the publisher, but that's about it. Overall, to most it's just an amusing little addition to the overall portrait of the artist.

I'd actually be more interested to know about the contents of the story/volume, in any case. Maybe some 'sperg will go ahead and translate it for Kotaku to earn mad creds.

 

[Blaine]

This is significantly different from the one I posted—the size, shape, and color of the dinosaur, another character being part and parcel of the scene and leading the dinosaur—whereas the comparisons of the two sets of diving suit and little girl differ very little except in the exact model of diving suit used and the exact appearance of the little girl. The differences are minimal and almost entirely stylistic.

Today we witness the birth of a new brand of Biodrone... since monkeys can conceivably produce Shakespeare given enough typewriters and a long enough interval of time, unless something is directly photocopied, why, surely it must be a coincidence, an innocent reinventing of the wheel.

 

[Pantalones]

Quite the opposite. Acknowledging this at this stage would be incredibly stupid. It opens you up to a lawsuit.

I'm not sure in which world you live.

Very true. If you notice, it's very common for game and movie makers to cite some completely random-sounding influences for everything they make. I always wondered why that is, but if you can point to something else as the inspiration that might possibly fill the bill it helps to cover you legally. The little girls from shining seem like a pretty random inspiration and didn't much look like this girl, now we see oops whole thing was stolen wholehog from something long forgotten. And people don't realize it but those old scifi and fantasy rags always had top notch artists, most of them much better than working in games today so they are ripe for the picking.

 

[Blaine]

I don't doubt that the Grady twins might have served as genuine partial inspiration for the uh... precious bodily fluid harvesters... whatever they're supposed to be.

Nor do I much doubt that what's-his-face saw the cover of a certain obscure magazine before copying its aesthetic theme almost wholesale, though I acknowledge the possibility that he didn't (and have since the beginning; as I said, the odds are "remote").

What's more, designers and artists in the gaming industry are well known for poring through obscure old shit like this. French underground comics from the 1980s, a Polish folk artist, some set of woodworker's tools from the 1940s, the most obscure shit imaginable gets cited as inspiration for them.

Even musicians do it. The music Mark Morgan composed for Fallout is, to some people, a little too close his sources of inspiration in some cases, and I mildly agree with them though I don't consider it plagiarism per se.

 

[Dexter]

Quite the opposite. Acknowledging this at this stage would be incredibly stupid. It opens you up to a lawsuit.

 

[Turjan]

Quite the opposite. Acknowledging this at this stage would be incredibly stupid. It opens you up to a lawsuit.

I always love these selfies in posts :D.

As a leading employee of a publicly traded company, you are not allowed to make any statements that are potentially harmful to your employer. A very simple concept actually. If you do so anyway, the shareholders are free to sue you to have a go at your own money. Which means that taking the moral high ground here is only a good idea if you are broke.

 

[Dexter]

Quite the opposite. Acknowledging this at this stage would be incredibly stupid. It opens you up to a lawsuit.

I always love these selfies in posts :D.

As a leading employee of a publicly traded company, you are not allowed to make any statements that are potentially harmful to your employer. A very simple concept actually. If you do so anyway, the shareholders are free to sue you to have a go at your own money. Which means that taking the moral high ground here is only a good idea if you are broke.

I don't think you understand the concept of Copyright, even if he was inspired by that picture (which I find highly unlikely as explained before) and even if the original author after 45+ years assuming it is not Public Domain would claim this and prove that it was true (which is nearly impossible) there are zero grounds for any Copyright claims since you can't Copyright the concept of a guy in a diving helmet with a little girl and they look nothing alike.

In the case that was brought up the problem was that they apparently Copy/Pasted the exact design without permission and there might be a case if they Copy/Pasted that image somewhere in the game or designed it exactly like it:

http://www.ibtimes.com/finnair-flies-plagiarism-scandal-thanks-marimekko-designer-1287633

Do yourself a favor and shut up, gaudaost.

But as it stands there is barely any resemblance:

There is no ground for any sort of lawsuit based on this whatsoever.

 

[Turjan]

There is no ground for any sort of lawsuit based on this whatsoever.

Heh, long answer over nothing. I don't think it's that similar, either. Nevertheless, wherever there's money, there's lawyers. No need to ask for it.

 

[agentorange]

obviously that japanese artist ripped Robot Monster off. he just made the girl younger because all japanese are pedophiles

 

[Cadmus]

Geez Bioshock is a piece of shit no matter what they ripped off. And I think the concept is retarded enough for Ken LeRetard to come up with on his own to have an unpaid intern come up with.