BioWare saved the genre from certain death

[GarfunkeL]

Volly, I have no idea what you are talking about

 

[Mattresses]

"Oh grow up you whiny bastard. Only Sarevok was "hard" in vanilla BG. Go play Curse of the Azure Bonds again and tell me how many times you reloaded a fight or brough a new PC into the party? And please, don't try to pass Sarevok as something else but a "cheap" encounter, albeit not nearly as epic as PoD."

Are these the same GB games that 10 or udners could beat easily? R00flkes! Nah. GB games weren't that hard if dumb kiddies could beat them.

yeah, dude. not like DA. REAL MENS GAMES! HRNFF!

 

[Fowyr]

BG clubs the Gold Box games with depth and strategy.

He is kidding. Right? RIGHT?

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

BG clubs the Gold Box games with depth and strategy.

He is kidding. Right? RIGHT?

Read further. I explain why.

 

[Nael]

Marilyn Manson wants you all to know that all RPGs are shit.

 

[Fowyr]

BG clubs the Gold Box games with depth and strategy.

He is kidding. Right? RIGHT?

Read further. I explain why.

I read this. And it don't convince me. I remember mass battles in DQoK, battle with ghosts on Phlan's cemetery, colossal final battle in GttSF, tough like hell battle under Daggerfalls in CoAB, encounter with deceived dracolich in forest, fucking bits of Moander, insane on Ace hand-to-hand combat with some alien shit in Matrix Cubed, cool boardings where I precisely used my plasma thrower, final battle and pyramid in Por, I remember how I used lightning bolt's reflection for double damage, battle with iron golems in SotSB, ass whipping final battle in PoD and fucking bloody Dave's Challenge.
BG? Ankhegs for very low level party and Sarevok. BG2? Dragons, Irenicus and liches.
BTW, i played some goldboxes more than twelve years ago and I remember their battles more clearly than BG's.
BG - good game, but tactics not its best side.

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

BG clubs the Gold Box games with depth and strategy.

He is kidding. Right? RIGHT?

Read further. I explain why.

I read this. And it don't convince me. I remember mass battles in DQoK, battle with ghosts on Phlan's cemetery, colossal final battle in GttSF, tough like hell battle under Daggerfalls in CoAB, encounter with deceived dracolich in forest, fucking bits of Moander, insane on Ace hand-to-hand combat with some alien shit in Matrix Cubed, cool boardings where I precisely used my plasma thrower, final battle and pyramid in Por, I remember how I used lightning bolt's reflection for double damage, battle with iron golems in SotSB, ass whipping final battle in PoD and fucking bloody Dave's Challenge.
BG? Ankhegs for very low level party and Sarevok. BG2? Dragons, Irenicus and liches.
BTW, i played some goldboxes more than twelve years ago and I remember their battles more clearly than BG's.
BG - good game, but tactics not its best side.

I remember more of the Gold Box battles too but I dont think it has much to do with the quality of the combat. ToEE was newer and had better combat but I dont remember many of the battles like I do with the GB games.

The Gold Box games had great encounters but they didn't require much in the way of tactics either (unless we are talking power gaming). The final battle in PoR was all common sense. Hold person/stink cloud the traitors and keep your low hp from the Dragon. I remember running into two dart throwers in BG. Yeah its only two guys that were mean at throwing the lowliest weapon but I lost at least once or twice and had to use think and adjust more than I did against Tyranthraxus and his minions.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Well then you have a selective memory.

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

Didn't matter, there was still often a lag between your click and the action - or the character decided it needed to move before casting - or line of sight was blocked which was not apparent to the player and the character, instead of moving sideways, walked into enemies arms....

That lag was weapon speed.

That's a bug, not a feature. You cannot criticize a system as "badly designed" and then use a known bug, which was later fixed, as the evidence, dumb fuck.

Its not a bug or a feature its a beature. It was half good because you should be able to stall a caster by slaming a temple foor in their face. They fixed it by letting them follow you so in the end it was a pure feature.

And that's cool? The enemy has no way of spotting your stealth, unless scipted? And on the other hand, you have no way of actually staying hidden if the devs want you to initiate a conversation? And you call that good design?

Unlike DA the scripting made sense most of the time. In DA you can scout out an ambush but cant attack. In BG the scripting usually takes place when the enemy is watching you enter their domain from one entrance.

'cause you're a dumbfuck and apparently didn't play BG much. It is very possible, around lvl 4-5, to 100% safely sneak across all the zones, no matter was it day or night.

So you have a an elite ninja type that cant do anything else. Not wise in dungeons. The game has some harsh traps.

Haha no. You had random battles in the zones, you had random batles while traveling. Weapon speed only dictated which of the melee combatants struck first during that turn, which was meaningless in 95% of the game. You HAD to fight every plot related enemy to either A) switch plot-flags or B) get items. You try sneaking through Iron Throne headquarters or Candlekeep in Ch5 or either the bandit camp or the mines OR ANY FUCKING POINT IN THE FUCKING PLOT.

The random battles were the consequence of fast travel.
I'm pretty sure weapon speed overlaps turns. That was 2e pnp rules. Its the only way to explain the effectiveness of ranged weapons. Also you shouldnt be able to sneak through some of those joints. Stealthing the Iron Throne Battle would be like walking in on King Arthur's round table.

GB didn't whisk you into the "battle world", like JRPG - the battle was played out on the exact same map that you explored in first person. So you could utilize corridors, doorways, narrow positions, terrain features (trees/rocks) as much as you wanted/could.

At best you could initiate GB combat from different angels but you couldn't initiate from a set location so if there was a spot with favorable terrain you would catch more hell falling back to that spot. It was almost never worth falling back in the GB games while gorilla tactics and ambushes were impossible.

Eh, you could do that in GB too. Send one party member around, the enemy reacts, dividing their forces. You can have invisible party moving behind the enemy force, decimating their casters before they realize you are there. Nothing new in BG.

You couldn't do this before the battle starts so you are basically left trying trying to use pre-battle tactic after the battle has begun (unless you are getting attacked while resting).

Oh, no. You got one thing over it but lose any edge with the stupidity of RTwP and pixel-based map. Turn-based combat in a square-based map is easily the more strategic version, if only for the ease of control and presentation of information it conveys.

Maybe...
I think its more complicated.

Oh grow up you whiny bastard. Only Sarevok was "hard" in vanilla BG. Go play Curse of the Azure Bonds again and tell me how many times you reloaded a fight or brough a new PC into the party? And please, don't try to pass Sarevok as something else but a "cheap" encounter, albeit not nearly as epic as PoD.

Sarevok wasn’t cheap. He was a typical end game battle. The traps in the middle of the room were more of a threat. A pack of summons and a buffed fighter could stall him long enough to turn the rest of the battle. Curse had an outright unwinnable battle in Zhentil Keep but it was avoidable. I think it was just there to make you feel like you cant win an all out assault. Other than Zhentil Keep I would say that Curse and BG were pretty equal in difficulty.

 

[circ]

This topic should be retardoed.

 

[Volourn]

No, you.

 

[circ]

Bullshit moran.

 

[Melcar]

Moran bullshit.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Kaanyrvhok, I don't understand you at all. Now you went back in nearly all of your points, flip-flopping 180 degrees :shock:

That lag was weapon speed.

Sure but you didn't acknowledge the other stuff I had in the quote, like LoS.

Unlike DA the scripting made sense most of the time. In DA you can scout out an ambush but cant attack. In BG the scripting usually takes place when the enemy is watching you enter their domain from one entrance.

What? No it didn't. Uh, immediate entrance discussions: meeting Elminster for the first time. Otherwise every scripted, NPC-initiated dialog started when you moved a character near enough. It's stupid in both and you can't say that BG is better than GB, then refute my point by saying that stupid in BG doesn't matter because DA has the same stupid but in a different flavour.

So you have a an elite ninja type that cant do anything else. Not wise in dungeons. The game has some harsh traps.

Pfft, from that point on you can devote all of the skill points to traps if you want and there ain't any seriously bad traps until Cloakwood Mines bottom floor. And even those only summon Doomknights which are good for xp. I once did all the quests in Baldur's Gate plus the return to Candlekeep bit all the way up to Thieve's Maze without a thief and I didn't have to reload because of traps - so no, your claim is false.

The random battles were the consequence of fast travel.

No. True, you had random battles on "fast travel" but you had random battles inside the zones too. You can easily test this and I can't believe you haven't realized it.

I'm pretty sure weapon speed overlaps turns. That was 2e pnp rules. Its the only way to explain the effectiveness of ranged weapons.

No they don't. You confuse multiple attacks that high level fighters and rangers get with weapon speed. Ranged weapons weren't OP in BG either, I think it was IWD2.

Also you shouldnt be able to sneak through some of those joints. Stealthing the Iron Throne Battle would be like walking in on King Arthur's round table.

But that's just what you earlier proclaimed BG allowed! Now you're saying it would be stupid? What the fuck man? Anyway, it's not even possible - COMBAT is the only way to advance the plot in BG.

so if there was a spot with favorable terrain you would catch more hell falling back to that spot. It was almost never worth falling back in the GB games while gorilla tactics and ambushes were impossible.

Oh ye of little faith. From Curse onwards you have HASTE available to you. You can cast it as well as INVISIBILITY from the "magic" screen before fight, as well as PRAYER or BLESS or PROTECTION FROM EVIL, 10" or any buff. That way, even though you couldn't initiate a battle where you wanted (sometimes you could, to an extent), you had the option of pre-buffing and then falling back to a better position. And you could then create an ambush.

It's not possible to initiate battle from good position all the time in BG either - you are limited by the fog of war. Naturally, good players use invisible creatures or AOE-spells to extend that range, etc but still - the games are equal.

You couldn't do this before the battle starts so you are basically left trying trying to use pre-battle tactic after the battle has begun (unless you are getting attacked while resting).

Sure, you can't do it before battle starts. You can do it during the battle and if you're smart, you start the battle invisible and hastened.

So can you finally admit that BG didn't trump GB in tactics/combat mechanics? Or do you really want to continue sprouting shit about those games? It might work in GameFAQs but not here.

 

[mondblut]

Saved from certain death? You could say so. But it's better to die standing than to live on your knees.

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

Sure but you didn't acknowledge the other stuff I had in the quote, like LoS.

So its news that the IE especially BG has shitty pathfinding? You have to shorten the movement manually in situations like that. Not a big deal to me though it was annoying in tight quarters like Candlekeep and Firewine.

What? No it didn't. Uh, immediate entrance discussions: meeting Elminster for the first time. Otherwise every scripted, NPC-initiated dialog started when you moved a character near enough. It's stupid in both and you can't say that BG is better than GB, then refute my point by saying that stupid in BG doesn't matter because DA has the same stupid but in a different flavour.

Elminster is a bad example but there were others.I see what you mean. You could attack some of them before dialog but that might have pissed off the guards. My point with DA was that it was almost always like that. You could never intiate combat against known hostiles and break dialog. In the GB games you could never intiate combat unless it was through parlay so never before dialog either. In the vast majority of the encounters in BG you could attack first. This was if anything too easy to abuse. I could deal with the exceptions in BG because most of them made sense.

Pfft, from that point on you can devote all of the skill points to traps if you want and there ain't any seriously bad traps until Cloakwood Mines bottom floor. And even those only summon Doomknights which are good for xp. I once did all the quests in Baldur's Gate plus the return to Candlekeep bit all the way up to Thieve's Maze without a thief and I didn't have to reload because of traps - so no, your claim is false.

If you say so. Me, I like to be thorough. I rather get spotted scouting than let loose even the simplest of traps.

No. True, you had random battles on "fast travel" but you had random battles inside the zones too. You can easily test this and I can't believe you haven't realized it.

If you scout an entire area and find three mobs a new random mob isn’t going to all of the sudden appear just because you are walking around. That’s how I remember it.

No they don't. You confuse multiple attacks that high level fighters and rangers get with weapon speed. Ranged weapons weren't OP in BG either, I think it was IWD2.

Nah I think we both got it wrong.
Here is my theory for why ranged weapons were the shit in BG. And yes I agree they weren’t OP. Anyhoo. In 2e certain ranged weapons had multiple attacks. Darts even had multiple attacks in the GB games but it didn’t register misses so you didn’t hear hit miss or miss hit but you could hear hit hit. This was true with 1st lvl characters and I think it was also true in BG. Two, the game was realtime Enemies didn’t freeze time when they moved. Weapon speed didn’t matter so much in melee; it just decided the initiative, but with ranged weapons it was the difference between shooting a musket and a simi-auto.

But that's just what you earlier proclaimed BG allowed! Now you're saying it would be stupid? What the fuck man? Anyway, it's not even possible - COMBAT is the only way to advance the plot in BG.

Again I can live with it when it’s the typical major encounter against some powerful NPC surrounded by henchmen and there is one entrance. Plus unlike DA they didn’t break formation and half the time you could still get off an attack before it was broken by dialog so the dialog didnt amount to much more than JRPG fight threats.

Oh ye of little faith. From Curse onwards you have HASTE available to you. You can cast it as well as INVISIBILITY from the "magic" screen before fight, as well as PRAYER or BLESS or PROTECTION FROM EVIL, 10" or any buff. That way, even though you couldn't initiate a battle where you wanted (sometimes you could, to an extent), you had the option of pre-buffing and then falling back to a better position. And you could then create an ambush.

The IE system made a lot more sense and was far more realistic especially when fighting against big numbers.

Haste and Invisibility 10 radius were high lvl spells. That would reduce your Area attacks which are the main reason to create distance. Most of the battles in the GB games were surrounded by other battles so you had to save your spells. The of coarse like I mentioned before ranged weapons were more effective in the IE games so space mattered more.

Sure, you can't do it before battle starts. You can do it during the battle and if you're smart, you start the battle invisible and hastened.

Which I did at times.
If your buffs are ticking the battle has already started. Lets be real the battle has already begun.

So can you finally admit that BG didn't trump GB in tactics/combat mechanics? Or do you really want to continue sprouting shit about those games? It might work in GameFAQs but not here.

Do you hear yourself? You are offering nothing. The GB games do it too if you use two key spell slots against an enemy that doesnt have Infrared?

 

[Inanity]

All i know is that the more i play the game the less i like it combat wise.

If i'm a fraction off in my aim i miss...yet every enemy got guided ordinance.. that never misses.

1-2 shots takes down your shields then the next shot kills you.Enemy AI is also much more competent than friendly Ai in all aspects.

I spent 15 fucking,pardon my french,minutes trying to get my squad to move through a doorway on Harmoney.It was after you met the human survivor and he says he is going to lock the door behind you.

15 fucking minutes off listeneng to "moving!".."Taking Cover!" while my two teamates stood in place and if i moved too far the door would shut leavig me alone.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Sounds like Operation Flashpoint .

 

[GarfunkeL]

Kaanyrvhok, are you still claiming that BG made combat more tactical than it was in GB? Because it seems to me that we have descendent into bickering about fairly meaningless details. In any case:

So its news that the IE especially BG has shitty pathfinding?

And if the game would have been turn-based, no-one would ever have complained about shitty pathfinding.

In the GB games you could never intiate combat unless it was through parlay so never before dialog either.

I take it you mean the boss fights. That is true but you could always buff before hand - buffs didn't tick away during conversation, only during movement and if you used LOOK. So GB doesn't allow you to exploit this, in the same way that BG allows - not really a loss in my book.

If you scout an entire area and find three mobs a new random mob isn’t going to all of the sudden appear just because you are walking around. That’s how I remember it.

You remember wrong. At the very least, if you leave an area and return, there are new random mobs in it. Then, I don't remember whether it was in the original game or if a mod added it, but the last time I played BG, you could have endless random monsters even if you never left the map.

but with ranged weapons it was the difference between shooting a musket and a simi-auto.

Not really, because the game still handled turns in the background - it just didn't stop the game between them by default.

Again I can live with it when it’s the typical major encounter

Yes but earlier you said that it was possible to advance the plot in BG without combat. Are you still staying that?

The IE system made a lot more sense and was far more realistic especially when fighting against big numbers.

No it didn't, since it didn't have Guard-ability or Attacks of Opportunity either and failed to utilize the multiple attacks of a single character against multiple opponents. In GB, your fighter uses her first attack, kills the goblin, she can immediately continue against the next goblin. In BG, she kills the goblin, wasting her second attack, until next round, she closes in with another goblin and attacks it. Try it out, turn "auto-pause at end of turn" on and see for yourself.

That would reduce your Area attacks

which were mostly useful only during the first or second turn of any battle, unless the enemy were wholly ranged and stayed in their formation. Sleep/Stinking Cloud are the common utility spells in GB and they are lvl 1 and 2, respectively. Haste is 3.

so you had to save your spells

Of course, no-one uses haste and invisibility in every single fight - they are saved for tough encounters. Just like no-one buffs the party completely for every kobold, kvart or wolf that they encounter in BG.

 

[DreadMessiah]

Sure my wizard does cuz I gots mana potions! Can run around with shit tons of spells going with my never ending supply of mana potions!

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

And if the game would have been turn-based, no-one would ever have complained about shitty pathfinding.

That’s assuming the game has absolute control. I first played Pool of Radiance with a joystick. If its point and click the pathfinding can falter in combat and if they didn’t keep the first person traveling it could falter outside of combat. Besides, BG’s pathfinding was more of an issue outside of combat.

I take it you mean the boss fights. That is true but you could always buff before hand - buffs didn't tick away during conversation, only during movement and if you used LOOK. So GB doesn't allow you to exploit this, in the same way that BG allows - not really a loss in my book.

If that’s not a net loss to ya we’ll just have to disagree. I tried beating Pools of Darkness with a shitty demihuman party. I didn’t have any dual classed PCs. Buffing was the least of the tactics I tried. I tried to Skirmish and setup ambushes in GB games. Its one of those things you can kinda do every now and then if a variety of conditions lineup and you execute it right. To me that’s just not realistic. It should be the other way around. If a party of adventurers wants to survive they should behave like a sports team and try to execute quickly and from a distance. Entangled close quarters combat is something that you should seek to avoid.

Not really, because the game still handled turns in the background - it just didn't stop the game between them by default.

I never said it didn’t. I’m saying that some ranged weapons may have received extra attacks like they did in the GB games and that weapon speed was more important for ranged weapons because you are shooting at realtime movement. There is no such thing as closing on an archer in one or two turns. If you start closing they are shooting and the faster speeds get more shots.

Yes but earlier you said that it was possible to advance the plot in BG without combat. Are you still staying that?

I’m generalizing. You can avoid just about anything that isn’t a pivotal boss battle because you aren’t sucked into battle land. You can fight many battles passively and defensively. The best strategy against Drizzt is to summon and shoot from as far away as possible.

No it didn't, since it didn't have Guard-ability or Attacks of Opportunity either and failed to utilize the multiple attacks of a single character against multiple opponents. In GB, your fighter uses her first attack, kills the goblin, she can immediately continue against the next goblin. In BG, she kills the goblin, wasting her second attack, until next round, she closes in with another goblin and attacks it. Try it out, turn "auto-pause at end of turn" on and see for yourself.

It did have guard it just was not something you needed to use often. In IE games you shoot until they are right upon you, you don’t wait. Attacks of Opportunity is just something to make TB combat function and more believable. There is no point in having Attack of Opportunity in a real time/pause game though defensive feats and offensive/charging feats would be cool if you want to give someone an advantage for being aggressive or defensive.

In your example you are going to have the first attack anyway so it’s the same thing. I might agree with you against a creature that also has multiple attacks even if it shares the same handicap.

which were mostly useful only during the first or second turn of any battle, unless the enemy were wholly ranged and stayed in their formation. Sleep/Stinking Cloud are the common utility spells in GB and they are lvl 1 and 2, respectively. Haste is 3.

Its still a tough choice between fireball and invisibility 10 radius especially when facing big battles against low hp. In BG you only make that choice if you want to get close to the enemy which is usually what you don’t want to do but sometimes you break the rules.

 

[Inanity]

I don't think the FPS genre had any worries before Bioware made ME2..

Nice way to cave into the teen crowd bioware.

It's a really crappy shooter with some RPG elements like "talking!".