KickStarter Black Geyser: Couriers of Darkness - Tales of the Moon Cult expansion on the way

[GreenMagicSpell]

One needs to be careful. Getting banned on the first day for flaming wouldn't have helped getting genuine Geyser* reactions from players.

I think he meant that it sounds silly if you say: Give me $20 and you get something for free – it's not for free, it's $20.

You have a point there. On the other hand, their poll is clear I'm sure: for that pledge on Kickstarter, you get the game for free later. For other pledges (lower than $20), you might still need to pay. Wording matters.


*Strictly referring to Black Geyser: The Courier. Has nothing to do with porn. Neither the word "reaction" nor "geyser". Thanks.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Having races like Fjeldegug or 'Devil God' doesn't help.

Actually, statements such as this doesn't help as long as you don't provide some reasoning.

Why Devil God is a stupid name, you ask? Other than it being something a 12 year old would come up with? Well, the word devil is associated either with Satan or evil spirits/creatures, usually in opposition to the benevolent and good God. A god can be evil but putting Devil and God together simply doesn't work. It neither sounds right nor makes any sense. What god is it? An evil god? The chief devil? The death god? Why not add Awesome God and Dick God too? You can have awesome dialogue like "Dick God, why are you such a dick?!!!"

As for races, either you go for the generic races - human, dwarves, elves, etc or original names preferably the ones that mean something, but when you mix them up, it sounds like you're just trying to add cool shit. The only reaction it gets is, what in the fucking fuck is fjeldegugsgsg? Are they distantly related to adlahflafal?

IMO statements without reasoning are fully OK (freedom of speech and all), but for me, they are shit.

Good luck to you then.

'gib us $20 and get the game for free!'

FYI, I talked to the webmaster today. That website poll is currently at $8810 (and, surprise! Most of it are $20 votes!). Few hundred bucks, right? :D And remember, they haven't even shown a running version/prototype video.

There is a huge difference between choosing a poll option that says $20 and actually paying $20. However, my point was that saying "pay us and get the game for free!" does come off the wrong way. Also, I'd suggest to start with $15 not $20 on account of you being unknown developers with little to show.

Edit:

And yeah, I won't drop my emotions, I'm not their official marketing guy, I don't need to watch my words. I like what Black geyser: The Courier promises, I want to help them (as a fan and as a friend too). If you write genuine feedback, then it won't depend on my person. Whether I'm a paid troll or a genuine fan really doesn't make Black Geyser good or bad. Live with it.

I didn't mean that you have to watch your words. I meant that emotions tend to get in the way, making it harder to see your mistakes.

When I said that half of it is shit, I didn't mean to insult. That's just the fact of game developer life. You put something together for the first time (even if it's just a concept), half of it is shit. The problem is, you don't know which half because you're too close and too attached. This forum is good at showing it to you but only if you drop your emotions and start looking at your game (your friends' game, whatever) though someone else's eyes.

 

[Irenaeus]

I liked Bjalla Adelis, she looks like a mean bitch!

 

[Bubbles]

At black masses the name of the Lord is read backwards. Thus, the shorthand for "evil god" is "doG".

 

[ArchAngel]

That one game screenshot got me mildly interested but the rest of the website and presentation screams "I don't know what I am doing" just like people said. Legends of Dawn are like Obsidian level experience compared to this

 

[GreenMagicSpell]

To me, it looks like the website does:
- introduce the game world, including the map
- most important gods, famous characters, rulers
- story and backstory
- features and novelties the game

It does not offer yet:
- a teaser or gameplay video
- details about rule system and lore
- project-related details (budget)

Where else can you see "I don't know what I am doing?"? With mobile platforms, perhaps they would overburden themselves, but several team members used to work in mobile industry, so it's possible they really know what they are doing (I'm not part of the dev team, so I don't know all details, obviously).

Please write what else reflects the uncertainty that you see.

 

[ArchAngel]

To me, it looks like the website does:
- introduce the game world, including the map
- most important gods, famous characters, rulers
- story and backstory
- features and novelties the game

It does not offer yet:
- a teaser or gameplay video
- details about rule system and lore
- project-related details (budget)

Where else can you see "I don't know what I am doing?"? With mobile platforms, perhaps they would overburden themselves, but several team members used to work in mobile industry, so it's possible they really know what they are doing (I'm not part of the dev team, so I don't know all details, obviously).

Please write what else reflects the uncertainty that you see.

Go check out Legends of Dawn website and then consider that one is also considered a bad game that barely got 20 000$ on KS. But their website has so much better written info that of this game. More better art and so on.

 

[Vault Dweller]

To me, it looks like the website does:
- introduce the game world, including the map
- most important gods, famous characters, rulers
- story and backstory
- features and novelties the game

Page 1 - what not to do

It includes a big-ass logo nobody cares about, poor drawing, short description of the game in big letters and a retarded quote, and a 'gib me money' poll.

Page 2 - brief description informing us that greed is spreading. Bonus point for not making it about ancient evil. Poor description of races and classes that mentions a few oddities and stops there. If you want to list races, DESCRIBE them and list pros, cons, and abilities if any. All you say basically is that thieves can plant things on NPCs and if you don't like that, you can play as a fighter or a crushmaster (poor man's berserker?). If you think it explains anything or makes anyone want to play it, you're mistaken.

Page 3 (story) - the goddess of love had lesbian sex with the goddess of nature and all was good and all elementary(?) evil was banished. Oh god, please not good vs evil again. Character - you're raised as a druid, now live in a village. Short and pointless. Teaser dialogue - already covered.

And so on. 3 pages - very little substance or info of any kind. If you think that you've introduced the world or the story, think again. So far the ONLY thing that is selling the game is that lovely screenshot.

Some tips. Start from the beginning:

1 - the setting

Write a full page, rewrite a few times, read it to people who care about what you're doing, ask them what they understood from what you've just read them, take notes.

2 - the story

Same as above. One page, how does the story starts, why should I give a fuck? Don't take my interest for granted. Your game won't appeal to everyone and some people will say it's shit regardless, but it should appeal to someone. So work on that.

3 - races and classes

Same as above. Describe each race, its advantages and disadvantages. Keep it consistent. You say that some god created sdfslfjsklafjslafj and then wanted to destroy them. Ok. Who created other races? Why only sdakjsadfsfsf were created? What's other races relatonships with their gods? Etc. Then describe classes. Post them here first, we'll rip them apart but the end result will be better. What's crushmaster? Is it just an angry barb with a hammer? Are you absolutely sure that letting a fighter specialize in hammers and gain a rage-like ability won't be better overall? Etc.

Etc.

 

[Irenaeus]

Etc.

 

[Tigranes]

Getting feedback is not always a pleasant affair. Doesn't mean it's not genuine and relevant feedback. VD is right on the whole.

If you had the exact same information but started by giving us the in-game renders saying 'inspired by BG, IWD, etc', then said, 'this is a gameworld threatened not by a mere monster but a monstrous vice - the vice of Greed, which is engulfing the population of Yerengal... can you resist the temptation' then go straight to the 'novelties' of Greed system and Put Silently, then say, 'more details coming soon' - then you have a much improved impression, though you'd still be lacking actual details on gameplay, at least it'd be a nice start.

At this point I've read the whole website two or three times. I still don't know what a Crushmaster is exactly. I still don't know what you guys mean by the Geyser will crush your soul. I still don't know anything interesting about the plot and setting, except for the spread of greed - the protagonist background is utterly threadbare. I was raised by a druid who was a librarian, then... what do you mean, mysteriously died? What is the mystery? WHy did I take his books? What is the village of Scofarth? Why did I move? Am I out for revenge? For adventure? Is there a mystery over his death that I'll be embroiled in? I don't know anything...

 

[Angthoron]

"Put Silently" is a terrible name for a skill, by the way. Consider "Plant"/"/Plant Item"/"Plant Evidence"/"Incriminate" or getting a thesaurus.

 

[ArchAngel]

And please for the love of any God rename Put Silently into something that does not make us laugh immediately.

EDIT: Lol I was ninjaed

 

[Angthoron]

And please for the love of any God rename Put Silently into something that does not make us laugh immediately.

EDIT: Lol I was ninjaed

Conversely, I'd support "Put silently" in case the reverse, pickpocket, would be "Put out silently".

 

[Bubbles]

or getting a thesaurus.

That might leave us with "plunk stilly".

 

[Perkel]

And yeah, I won't drop my emotions, I'm not their official marketing guy, I don't need to watch my words. I like what Black geyser: The Courier promises, I want to help them (as a fan and as a friend too). If you write genuine feedback, then it won't depend on my person. Whether I'm a paid troll or a genuine fan really doesn't make Black Geyser good or bad. Live with it.
Keep writing guys, I keep analyzing your feedback.

This is not what we are talking about. No one gives a shit here about you or developer. We are talking about reduction of own emotion in face of criticism.

People said in this thread many times already that game looks like " I don't know what i am doing" from what is available and you go " i don't see why it looks good to me". Consider for a moment that your attachment to it is basically hiding it's flaws same way you being 12 years old and painting "awesome" picture hides it from being actually crap picture.

People said it already but i will summerize it again for you.

1. There is absolutely no hook. Stating character has revenge against someone doesn't mean shit nor it is a hook.
Explaining that your character lived with someone and explaining whole chain of actions that lead to it is proper way to get hook.

2. Lore. Like i said to you already and few people here, from what is available it feels simply like amateur work. Who knows maybe you have on board some awesome writters that have amazing ideas but if you won't be able to show they are awesome RIGHT NOW (kickstarter) then there won't be any game to show it in that game.

EXAMPLE
There was a city named "KINGCOMRADE"

What does it tell you ? NOTHING.

How should you visualize it to people:

- who rules that city ?
- what laws/rules it fallows ?
- who feeds this city
- who trades with it
- what culture represents this city
- Is it big city imperial style or maybe bigger than hamlet ?
- what history does it have ? Wars ?
- who was using that city earlier if it is very old city.
- Was it always current people or maybe it was city razed once and build on ruins of previous city ?
- famous personas born in that city ? local folk legends ?
Good lore practically feeds itself once you start writing it and later you need only to connect dots.

THIS GOES FOR EVERY SINGLE THING. CLASSES, MAGIC, RACES, CHARACTERS, OTHER PLACES.
You introduce magic then tell what are principles behind magic, history etc.

You have summoning. Does people feel ok with mages summoning undead or spiders out of nowhere ?

3. Who is doing game and how many people. You state 5 platforms and 6 different languages. That alone fires up alarms because if anything is true in this word is that you can't ship game on 5 different platforms in 6 different languages without having solid and experienced team. At least you are not trying to release it on consoles because that would instantly fired up completely 'scam alert" alarm as people usually don't know that cert for consoles takes ton of costly QA and certs themself cost money.

 

[GreenMagicSpell]

I was raised by a druid who was a librarian, then... what do you mean, mysteriously died? What is the mystery?

If we knew what is the mystery, it wouldn't be a mystery anymore . . .

EXAMPLE
There was a city named "KINGCOMRADE"

What does it tell you ? NOTHING.

How should you visualize it to people:

- who rules that city ?
- what laws/rules it fallows ?
- who feeds this city
- who trades with it
- what culture represents this city
- Is it big city imperial style or maybe bigger than hamlet ?
- what history does it have ? Wars ?
- who was using that city earlier if it is very old city.
- Was it always current people or maybe it was city razed once and build on ruins of previous city ?
- famous personas born in that city ? local folk legends ?
Good lore practically feeds itself once you start writing it and later you need only to connect dots.

Funny that the description of the Fjeldegug race exactly does the things you listed (who rules, what history, etc.)

 

[Perkel]

I was raised by a druid who was a librarian, then... what do you mean, mysteriously died? What is the mystery?

If we knew what is the mystery, it wouldn't be a mystery anymore . . .

EXAMPLE
There was a city named "KINGCOMRADE"

What does it tell you ? NOTHING.

How should you visualize it to people:

- who rules that city ?
- what laws/rules it fallows ?
- who feeds this city
- who trades with it
- what culture represents this city
- Is it big city imperial style or maybe bigger than hamlet ?
- what history does it have ? Wars ?
- who was using that city earlier if it is very old city.
- Was it always current people or maybe it was city razed once and build on ruins of previous city ?
- famous personas born in that city ? local folk legends ?
Good lore practically feeds itself once you start writing it and later you need only to connect dots.

Funny that the description of the Fjeldegug race exactly does the things you listed (who rules, what history, etc.)

1
You are trying to make people buy your game blind. You do realize that you need strong hook why people should care about it ? You don't need to reveal mystery but you need strong reason why people should give a shit about story.
To compare it to something. Recently there was released Pillars of Eternity. Game got a lot of flack (for main story) precisely because whole hook for main character is mysterious fog that made him see things and some nebulous figure who don't even notice care about player character.

What is hook for that game ? Basically some shitty fog makes you see things therafore i need to find out who is behind it. IT is shitty hook.
What could be done differently ? Player gets used as sacrifice (by person from above sentence) for same event that caused that fog but something goes wrong and player survives it somehow.

Notice difference ? In first one player doesn't have any motives to fallow main dude beside teh i see things now !
In second one at least that dude fucked him over and he has now reason to fuck that guy up.

In both cases you don't know what will happen later and who that dude was.

2
That is not the point. I was talking about visualization for every single thing !
Just because you have one city lore doesn't mean victory. If you have funny names straight out from 80' PnP fanfiction then at least make it real from lore standpoint. Make it grow on player.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Funny that the description of the Fjeldegug race exactly does the things you listed (who rules, what history, etc.)

It's not the same thing. We know what a city is as it's a universal concept. We know what a city at each stage of civilization should look like. We know that it needs trade, laws, districts, guilds, banks, temples, rulers, classes, etc. Thus it's relatively easy to explain a city by providing minimum information. For example, saying that a city has a thriving sea port explains a lot of things without requiring you to explain what's sea port, why the city had it, how sea trade works, etc.

When you introduce a race, you are in the uncharted territory. You have to explain everything and the explanation should make some kinda sense. Let's take a look:

Fjeldegug is a race originally created by Dargalmir, a demigod who is the ancestor of all Jotnar. Dargalmir wanted to create the perfect servant for his kind. A new race that is as loyal as his Frost Giant servants, and as quick as his Ice Trolls. His plan, however, has failed due to the intervention of Alnarius, the god of love.

Who is Dargalmir? Are demigods common? What do they do? He already had servants but he wanted more? Why? Just to be quick and nimble?

Alnarius believed that a new race serving the Jotnar could have broken the balance of Yerengal.

Why? What is this balance and why is it important?

Therefore, he secretly gifted fjeldegugs with a high intelligence and willpower. Dargalmir only realized this when the fjeldegugs started to question his orders. In his fury, he decided to slay all of them immediately.

Psychopath much? Also, Darg is a demi god who can create races out of his own excrements but he can't deal with them questioning his orders?

Nowadays, their descendants live in the Northern Realm. Despite their high intelligence, most of them are employed as servants by taverns and rich families. This is because the loyalty of fjeldegugs is still questioned (sometimes with a reason), and thus people are afraid to give them tasks of greater responsibility.

They should question this whole questioning their loyalty business! After all, they are willful and intelligent!

There are some notable exceptions, however: some fjeldegugs run their own tavern, telling old stories about the Jotnar to their guests. A few others managed to get even higher: they became advisors for the lords of Riznagar and Freynagar, or started an adventurer's life such as Bjalla Adelis.

Fjeldegugs have a good sense of humor.

Very helpful.

So far you told me fuck all. They have willpower and intelligence bonuses, so I guess if I want to play a mage, I should play a aflsdjfksjjsajfsar. They were created by a dude with anger issues, escaped, nobody trusts them which doesn't make sense, some work as servants, others are advising lords or adventuring. What does it tell me about them? Nothing. What kind of people are they? No idea. What makes them different from the humans? No clue. Are they good at anything other than wiping tables and advising lords? Don't know.

 

[Shadenuat]

If Fjelgedug fights Pwgra, who would win

 

[Angthoron]

If Fjelgedug fights Pwgra, who would win

This thread reminds me of Kareltima 3.

"You see a drunken Sjuvenheim"

 

[I_am_Ian]

The title sounds like you're saying "Black guys are"

 

[Irenaeus]

If Fjelgedug fights Pwgra, who would win

Menpwgras and Vithracks share a diseased pudding.

 

[GreenMagicSpell]

Actually, I wanted to mention the Winged Rillow race regarding the city descriptions and rulers.

But I get what you mean, so I added it to my notes (and will send it to devs in my tomorrow update).

 

[JarlFrank]

Their team is burdened much with work, AFAIK they're still hiring. I'll talk to them about it. Until then, could you show some relevant references? Something which can be checked immediately, without having to sign up anywhere etc.

I have released a book in German (link is in my signature), a short story of mine is going to be published in an anthology by a small scifi/fantasy publisher (Number 7 in the list), and I did some writing for the cancelled Chaos Chronicles game (mentioned as community manager and additional writing here). There are also some people here who can vouch for me, like zwanzig_zwoelf

I'm also a historian working on my master's degree, if that is of any relevance. My specialty is writing stuff that sounds authentically medieval or ancient in style. (no, not fake "thous" and "thees" and "ye oldes", but medieval in writing style)

 

[GreenMagicSpell]

Thanks, I've sent your info to them. They also asked for an email address (could you send me in PM?) where they can get back to you.