Ivan
Arcane
pc players b like
-
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From Software Bloodborne. Discuss or die!
- Thread starter Morgoth
- Start date
So I just finished Bloodborne. Got the ending where I kill Gehrman but don't fight the Moon Presence. This game could really use a little diversity. Not only is it linear and short, but it goes from a gray gothic town to a gray gothic church to a gray forest to a gray gothic castle/university. There should have been more branching paths and shit to explore. At least now I'm excited since Dark Souls III will have bonfires and Estus, which is good. Too bad it will yet again recycle enemy patterns from all the games From has made since Demon's Souls. Although they will probably put you against three of the same boss so that it's different and harder.
Phage
Arcane
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2010
- Messages
- 4,696
Men.
I really hope DS3 only uses estus to recover hp and mp (blue estus for mp ofc).
DS1's healing system is BY FAR the best in the entire series by a staggering margin. It allowed the designers to design areas based around the number of mistakes a player would make, whereas the other games don't have this restriction in mind. Granted, the rite of kindling kind of fucks with this, especially if you get it early.
There was also no banal farming for healing items like in bloodborne if you fucked up, or in demon's souls if you didn't go through boletaria early.
IF blue estus is the only way to recharge MP, then magic might finally be somewhat balanced. It's no secret that playing a sorcerer in the souls games is easy mode - a big part of which is INT scaling weapons meaning that a sorcerer is both strong with melee and ranged (or end-game spells simply nuking bosses effortlessly). With blue estus though, it's possible that magicfags won't have enough juice to blow through a boss battle with spells alone.
That all said, a build with magic in it will likely still ultimately be easier mode.
I really hope DS3 only uses estus to recover hp and mp (blue estus for mp ofc).
DS1's healing system is BY FAR the best in the entire series by a staggering margin. It allowed the designers to design areas based around the number of mistakes a player would make, whereas the other games don't have this restriction in mind. Granted, the rite of kindling kind of fucks with this, especially if you get it early.
There was also no banal farming for healing items like in bloodborne if you fucked up, or in demon's souls if you didn't go through boletaria early.
IF blue estus is the only way to recharge MP, then magic might finally be somewhat balanced. It's no secret that playing a sorcerer in the souls games is easy mode - a big part of which is INT scaling weapons meaning that a sorcerer is both strong with melee and ranged (or end-game spells simply nuking bosses effortlessly). With blue estus though, it's possible that magicfags won't have enough juice to blow through a boss battle with spells alone.
That all said, a build with magic in it will likely still ultimately be easier mode.
Ivan
Arcane
Yes
I'm pretty sure it won't, but honestly, that's fine, since most other secondary healing items won't be as good. Now, if you're talking recovering MP by waiting, like with a ring, I don't think it will matter at all. For bosses, it won't help, and for grinding, it will actually be easier.
But man, I'm so excited to play a decent Souls game with Estus and that doesn't require me to die or leave the area to respawn enemies. Worst part about Bloodborne was waiting for the awful load times to have more enemies appear. Not even kidding.
Phage
Arcane
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2010
- Messages
- 4,696
No - shitgems were awful and emblematic of DS2's level design problems. This is a topic of discussion that has been debated over and over: Were the shitgems implemented to make up for the long sprawling levels (or - to be more accurate, environmental damage-dense shit like Black Gulch) and gotcha moments of DS2 (and things like Smelter's fire arua), or were they implemented first and the levels/bosses designed around them? Either way, they really do paint the picture of why Dark Souls 1 has such tighter level design in its early areas compared to every other souls game. FROM had to make sure that an okay player could reasonably get through with 10 estus flasks, whereas every other game doesn't restrain itself since you can have so much more healing. (Bloodborne technically caps at 20 vials, but you can get runes that increase this, attacking heals orange hp, and many enemies drop vials mid-level)
And yes, I know that DS1 had other healing items - divine blessings and humanity. Those were far rarer than shitgems (which had an infinite vendor available at the first level of the game), and were actually stronger than Estus.
The estus system with no secondary healing is what will bring back the fantastic feeling of finally reaching a new bonfire, otherwise plebs can just stock up on shitgems and make as many mistakes as they want so long as they don't die.
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To be fair, any kind of healing item enforces the practice of mistakes. The game should be designed around being able to never take damage (as in, no mandatory gotchas or shit like lava that you must go through).
And maybe they should just nerf life gems then. Maybe a choking system, where if you take damage while you heal with a life gem, you take even more damage, or something like that.
And maybe they should just nerf life gems then. Maybe a choking system, where if you take damage while you heal with a life gem, you take even more damage, or something like that.
Phage
Arcane
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2010
- Messages
- 4,696
Or... get this, right, get this. They could take the best system they've had yet - Dark Souls 1's, make it even better by removing the divine blessing/humanity healing, and actually put in the effort of designing levels on par with the first half of DS1. Don't know why you would want shitgems or their equivalent at all to be honest.
I don't want them. I agree with you. Demon's Souls is my favorite but Dark Souls had the best designed combat and exploring system. No farming for items, no bullshit HP decrease, no despawning enemies. However, I would also like to see if they could come up with new stuff instead (as long as it's not exploitable overdesigned shit like life gems or some of the dashing in BB) of just making a Dark Souls that runs better, considering they will also rehash the bosses (or at least make it so that we're fighting two or three of them).
Karellen
Arcane
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2012
- Messages
- 327
So, I'm playing Bloodborne now and I'm liking it a lot - it's a simpler game than the Souls games in terms of mechanics, but the thing that I actually like about Souls games is mostly the exploration, and the level design's still really good, so it's all fine. I thought that the game felt a bit too tame, in that barely any of the areas have any natural hazards the way the best Dark Souls areas did, but then I started on the Old Hunters content and Ludwig killed me more times than basically every other boss in this game put together (I think I may have been at too low a level or something).
Something about the way progression works in this game really bugs me, though. The game has a ton of optional content, which in general should be a good thing for exploration, but the game also has this awkward chapter-like progression where moving ahead in the game triggers a lot of changes in the gameworld. Especially with NPC quests there are a lot of events that feel like they're triggered in a pretty arbitrary manner, so basically it's like you need to comb through areas you've already done everything at to see if anything has changed, which I find really annoying. Also, the triggers in Souls games have never been supremely reliable or transparent (I'm not sure, but I think that Simon's quest might've already bugged out on me after I killed Ludwig), and you have goofy random things like character clothing occasionally affecting NPCs, which all adds up to NPCs becoming OCD land mines.
Of course, it's kind of the same in all Souls games (and nothing in Bloodborne is anywhere near as ludicrously obtuse as World Tendency in Demon's Souls), but overall, Dark Souls in particular felt like you could progress through the game organically at your own pace, exploring new locations when the opportunity arose and you had a particular reason to go there; if you missed out on some stuff, it was mostly because you didn't explore areas carefully enough, and mostly they'd still be there if you came around later. In Bloodborne, you get the overall feeling that the game could, at any moment, punish the player for having progressed in the game, which is an incredibly cancerous thing for a game centered on exploration.
Something about the way progression works in this game really bugs me, though. The game has a ton of optional content, which in general should be a good thing for exploration, but the game also has this awkward chapter-like progression where moving ahead in the game triggers a lot of changes in the gameworld. Especially with NPC quests there are a lot of events that feel like they're triggered in a pretty arbitrary manner, so basically it's like you need to comb through areas you've already done everything at to see if anything has changed, which I find really annoying. Also, the triggers in Souls games have never been supremely reliable or transparent (I'm not sure, but I think that Simon's quest might've already bugged out on me after I killed Ludwig), and you have goofy random things like character clothing occasionally affecting NPCs, which all adds up to NPCs becoming OCD land mines.
Of course, it's kind of the same in all Souls games (and nothing in Bloodborne is anywhere near as ludicrously obtuse as World Tendency in Demon's Souls), but overall, Dark Souls in particular felt like you could progress through the game organically at your own pace, exploring new locations when the opportunity arose and you had a particular reason to go there; if you missed out on some stuff, it was mostly because you didn't explore areas carefully enough, and mostly they'd still be there if you came around later. In Bloodborne, you get the overall feeling that the game could, at any moment, punish the player for having progressed in the game, which is an incredibly cancerous thing for a game centered on exploration.
Mozg
Arcane
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2015
- Messages
- 2,033
I kinda wonder if they shouldn't get rid of poise (which is apparently carrying over from BB to Dark Souls 3). Souls games have the problem that they want to keep it visually realistic rather than hosing you down with sword trails and World of Warcraft effects spam, so they won't give you the tools to see the hyperarmor on moves with some gamey shit like a visual effect + hitstop (which is how fighting games do it, typically). Understanding poise gives you an easy way to manage stunning without it constantly being about invisible hyperarmor.
OTOH poise is pretty boring so I'm not sure.
Edit - Also that blue estus thing sounds cool, especially because lots of enemies clearly have "this faggot is drinking an estus time to do my longest range stab punish" AI, so magic won't have the issue that the AI has to be constantly special-cased to have some kind of answer to it.
OTOH poise is pretty boring so I'm not sure.
Edit - Also that blue estus thing sounds cool, especially because lots of enemies clearly have "this faggot is drinking an estus time to do my longest range stab punish" AI, so magic won't have the issue that the AI has to be constantly special-cased to have some kind of answer to it.
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Meaning of Karma
Learned
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2015
- Messages
- 139
I just purchased a PS4 and Bloodborne last week, so I've been working through the game in the past few days. Got to Darkbeast Paarl yesterday and I can say that I'm positively annoyed.
Why does From keep insisting on inserting shitty bosses that explicitly play to the weaknesses of the controls and mechanics of the series? Why am I still fighting large, fast, non-humanoid bosses that outright break the already finicky camera? Do they think it's clever or some shit?
"Hah hah! We got you, this fight was supposed to be shitty from the very start! Your complaints only belie a misunderstanding of our carefully crafted master plan to intentionally take away the improvements to movement mechanics and have you fight against our bad camera controls we have no intention of fixing! Nous sommes les premiers auteurs de la génération, hon hon hon!"
Why does From keep insisting on inserting shitty bosses that explicitly play to the weaknesses of the controls and mechanics of the series? Why am I still fighting large, fast, non-humanoid bosses that outright break the already finicky camera? Do they think it's clever or some shit?
"Hah hah! We got you, this fight was supposed to be shitty from the very start! Your complaints only belie a misunderstanding of our carefully crafted master plan to intentionally take away the improvements to movement mechanics and have you fight against our bad camera controls we have no intention of fixing! Nous sommes les premiers auteurs de la génération, hon hon hon!"
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And of course another such boss will appear in Dark Souls III.
Meaning of Karma
Learned
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2015
- Messages
- 139
I just beat Amelia and now the time of day has changed, and NPC dialogue has updated.
Any areas I should revisit before opening the door to Byrgenhergenwergenworth? Spoiler free if possible
Any areas I should revisit before opening the door to Byrgenhergenwergenworth? Spoiler free if possible
There is a hidden area if you explore Old Yharnam. Also, look around the Cathedral. There's an opening to a new area. I only found that out during NG+, so I'm not sure how hard it should be in the first playthrough.
Ivan
Arcane
You should really revisit the shut ins just after the giant gate (by the flamethrower before the Amelia stairs).
Meaning of Karma
Learned
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2015
- Messages
- 139
So for most of my play of Bloodborne, I've felt that there have been two problems lurking below the surface of the game. Namely, how the nature of the combat is at odds with the atmosphere they want to create, and how many of the "optional" areas (including chalice dungeons) seem disparate and poorly integrated with each other.
The first was apparent to me very early on. When you die in these games, there is an immediate and permanent release of tension, and it gets worse the farther you are in a level. What used to be ahead of you, the mysterious and unknowable, is within seconds replaced by a slog of the dull and the knowable. It's literally the opposite of what they're trying to be evocative of. And the problem is compounded because of things like consumable health items, boss runs, and the insistence of having certain enemies do shitloads of damage.
The last instance represents how divorced the combat is from everything else, and how it's not in service to anything else. They want the combat to have high risks and rewards, for you to be mobile and rushing in and out, to give and take and then retrieve frantic amounts of damage, but why the fuck would I do that when I know that if I screw up once, I'll be faced with a boring, tensionless trek back to where I am in the level? Personally I'd rather just kite a guy and whip his face off and parry easy swings. Depending on what you're looking for, you either have to indulge at the combat at the expense of everything else, or indulge in everything else at the expense of the combat.
The second issue started to take definite shape at around the forbidden forest. The inclusion of two entirely independent and relatively lengthy areas, plus the appropriate Chalice Dungeons makes it feel like the game is losing the plot. The apprehension and anticipation I felt at crossing the threshold from the Cathedral District had disintegrated by the time I was done with them all. That engrossing scene with Lawrence and Master Willem was so far back that I had a hard time recalling it by the time I actually got to Byrgenworth, and God only knows what happened to the things I felt when I first found the original Dream Manor.
And now I just beat Rom, and if before what I heard was the rumblings of bowels, what I'm witnessing now can only be described as the game shitting itself.
The sequence of areas between him and the next boss (haven't beaten him yet) seem to be a perfect crystallization and culmination of both these issues, right at what seems to be the sudden (premature, even) climax of the game.
"Quick, the nightmare is revealed, go kill this baby we've put at the end of these linear hallways consisting of respawning enemies that you have to blindly rip past except for if you die because a giant old god shot a laser that killed you instantly and now you have to do it all over again and also hey here's the key to another optional area on the other side of the game that you can do if you want and also all the NPC dialogue has updated and there are new quests phases. Aren't all these elements (combat, challenge, exploration, atmosphere,) coming together wonderfully for this perfectly paced climactic sequence?"
The first was apparent to me very early on. When you die in these games, there is an immediate and permanent release of tension, and it gets worse the farther you are in a level. What used to be ahead of you, the mysterious and unknowable, is within seconds replaced by a slog of the dull and the knowable. It's literally the opposite of what they're trying to be evocative of. And the problem is compounded because of things like consumable health items, boss runs, and the insistence of having certain enemies do shitloads of damage.
The last instance represents how divorced the combat is from everything else, and how it's not in service to anything else. They want the combat to have high risks and rewards, for you to be mobile and rushing in and out, to give and take and then retrieve frantic amounts of damage, but why the fuck would I do that when I know that if I screw up once, I'll be faced with a boring, tensionless trek back to where I am in the level? Personally I'd rather just kite a guy and whip his face off and parry easy swings. Depending on what you're looking for, you either have to indulge at the combat at the expense of everything else, or indulge in everything else at the expense of the combat.
The second issue started to take definite shape at around the forbidden forest. The inclusion of two entirely independent and relatively lengthy areas, plus the appropriate Chalice Dungeons makes it feel like the game is losing the plot. The apprehension and anticipation I felt at crossing the threshold from the Cathedral District had disintegrated by the time I was done with them all. That engrossing scene with Lawrence and Master Willem was so far back that I had a hard time recalling it by the time I actually got to Byrgenworth, and God only knows what happened to the things I felt when I first found the original Dream Manor.
And now I just beat Rom, and if before what I heard was the rumblings of bowels, what I'm witnessing now can only be described as the game shitting itself.
The sequence of areas between him and the next boss (haven't beaten him yet) seem to be a perfect crystallization and culmination of both these issues, right at what seems to be the sudden (premature, even) climax of the game.
"Quick, the nightmare is revealed, go kill this baby we've put at the end of these linear hallways consisting of respawning enemies that you have to blindly rip past except for if you die because a giant old god shot a laser that killed you instantly and now you have to do it all over again and also hey here's the key to another optional area on the other side of the game that you can do if you want and also all the NPC dialogue has updated and there are new quests phases. Aren't all these elements (combat, challenge, exploration, atmosphere,) coming together wonderfully for this perfectly paced climactic sequence?"
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The Decline
Arcane
It honestly surprised me when I found out Ludwig was supposed to be one of the hardest bosses. Nearly got him on the first try and whipped his ass on the second try. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I had a harder time with those three cloaked faggots in the woods.
Ivan
Arcane
BB has more cathartic combat than any Souls game. I like how it and Revengeance's health systems are interwoven into the combat itself. Genius.
Long gone are the days of The Getaway whereby the PC healed by literally standing next to a wall for 7 idle seconds while the tool magically "healed." I'm not shitting you, that was hilarious.
I have yet to lay my hands on the Expansion.
Long gone are the days of The Getaway whereby the PC healed by literally standing next to a wall for 7 idle seconds while the tool magically "healed." I'm not shitting you, that was hilarious.
I have yet to lay my hands on the Expansion.
80Maxwell08
Arcane
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2012
- Messages
- 1,154
Quick question. Is the old hunters edition from china on a completely different server than the other versions? I tried using the free multi-player weekend to fight father gascoigne in co-op a couple of times. The first time I rang the bell to summon and no one ever came. The second time I rang the bell to be summoned and still nothing so I gave up. Was I just unlucky?
Malpercio
Arcane
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2011
- Messages
- 1,534
Just finished it (+ expansion). Overall it's a fairly good game, Miyazaki is one of the few directors that makes games that feel like game. However I can't say I'm completely satisfied with it.
The game felt like Dark Souls Lite, I don't think there is anything that it does better than Dark Souls 1.
The games peaks at Rom fights, after it kinda goes down in quality, kinda like how DS does after you obtain the Lord Vessel. I haven't played DeS, but I wonder if Miyazaki simply runs out of steam or it's a budgetary problem. Either way Nightmare Frontier, Hidden Villlage and Mesis Nightmare are certainly not the game best areas, also the Hidden Village is another grey/brow town, meh. Although the Amygdala wandering around were cool as hell.
Lore and story were far obtuse for their own good. Again, I feel like the game lost itself after Rom. Wish the game did more with few NPC, mainly Arianna (Yes, I got that scene).
Co-op was fairly shit, I only saw one invasion and the bell system makes impossible to tell anything. Passwords were cool, please come back in DS3.
Healing system didn't fit the game design, enjoy farming Blood every time you get stuck to a boss (This is less of a problem later in the game where you get shitons of souls and you can buy over 9999 vials, but it really kills pacing for 3/4 of the game) Estus was perfect, why change it?
The game biggest problem are the infamous chalice dungeons, which pretty much kill any chance I'd replay it to try other builds and such. They sounds cool in theory, but the execution is just ugly and boring. I KNOW some people enjoy these, but I think these people should fuck off and play Diablo!!!
Ok, after re-reading I realized it looks like I didn't enjoy the game at all lol. But it's not like that. It's just that the "pros" are essentially the same as the other Souls, good level design, feeling of accomplishment, etc, etc
The game felt like Dark Souls Lite, I don't think there is anything that it does better than Dark Souls 1.
The games peaks at Rom fights, after it kinda goes down in quality, kinda like how DS does after you obtain the Lord Vessel. I haven't played DeS, but I wonder if Miyazaki simply runs out of steam or it's a budgetary problem. Either way Nightmare Frontier, Hidden Villlage and Mesis Nightmare are certainly not the game best areas, also the Hidden Village is another grey/brow town, meh. Although the Amygdala wandering around were cool as hell.
Lore and story were far obtuse for their own good. Again, I feel like the game lost itself after Rom. Wish the game did more with few NPC, mainly Arianna (Yes, I got that scene).
Co-op was fairly shit, I only saw one invasion and the bell system makes impossible to tell anything. Passwords were cool, please come back in DS3.
Healing system didn't fit the game design, enjoy farming Blood every time you get stuck to a boss (This is less of a problem later in the game where you get shitons of souls and you can buy over 9999 vials, but it really kills pacing for 3/4 of the game) Estus was perfect, why change it?
The game biggest problem are the infamous chalice dungeons, which pretty much kill any chance I'd replay it to try other builds and such. They sounds cool in theory, but the execution is just ugly and boring. I KNOW some people enjoy these, but I think these people should fuck off and play Diablo!!!
Ok, after re-reading I realized it looks like I didn't enjoy the game at all lol. But it's not like that. It's just that the "pros" are essentially the same as the other Souls, good level design, feeling of accomplishment, etc, etc
Elwro
Arcane
I thought the Micolash fight and the 'secret' part of the level nearby were p. cool.
Bros, I'm most likely gonna purchase the Old Hunters DLC since it has a nice discount right now.
So I have a couple of questions:
Whis one is better: using a NG+ character or creating a new one? (I heard NG+ is pretty brutal and I'm not the one playing all those Souls games for difficulty).
And another - my NG+ guy is a p. standard STR Ludwig's Sword guy, is there any more interesting and fun builds?
So I have a couple of questions:
Whis one is better: using a NG+ character or creating a new one? (I heard NG+ is pretty brutal and I'm not the one playing all those Souls games for difficulty).
And another - my NG+ guy is a p. standard STR Ludwig's Sword guy, is there any more interesting and fun builds?
cruel
Prophet
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2014
- Messages
- 1,043
Don't recommend playing this on ng+ if you're not a masochist - or maybe just don't do it as a first try.
Many fun weapons in dlc, I've still finished the game with Ludwigs, but there was some nice blueish sword very nice to use
Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk
Many fun weapons in dlc, I've still finished the game with Ludwigs, but there was some nice blueish sword very nice to use
Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk
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