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[Jasede]

The threads of fate are truly difficult to comprehend, LlamaGod. Because I have actually installed Shock 1 six minutes ago; I have finally gotten Shock 2 and don't want to play it without playing 1 again beforehand. "Look at you, hacker. A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting and sweating as you run through my corridors. How can you challenge a perfect, immortal machine?"
Why, why don't they make games like that anymore? But these are only bitter ramblings...

 

[LlamaGod]

The threads of fate are truly difficult to comprehend, LlamaGod. Because I have actually installed Shock 1 six minutes ago; I have finally gotten Shock 2 and don't want to play it without playing 1 again beforehand. "Look at you, hacker. A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting and sweating as you run through my corridors. How can you challenge a perfect, immortal machine?"
Why, why don't they make games like that anymore? But these are only bitter ramblings...

theres always BioShock, but it seems more like a System Shock 2.5 than a SS3 to me.

 

[Tintin]

Complexity is not realy a very useful way to evaluate music.

Looks, many of Mozart's piano concerto's are way better then the repetitive orchestral garbage spewed out today too, but that's not my point.The point is that I was never saying Morrowind's was better. However, it was more complex then DF's usually simplistic MIDIs. If it helps, I think DF had a better soundtrack then Morrowind and that the composer would probably do a better job because Soule has gotten too wrapped up in the "epic" style.

Jeremy has a whole orchestra to do his bidding

That is actually not true, Soule uses samples, not a real orchestra. So, he doesn't only compose it, but basically has to perform it to (by manipulating the samples to get a realistic sound out of them).

 

[Jasede]

Ah, that clears up some things, and hearing that you think that DF had the better soundtrack actually pacifies me. Morrowind's music is more complex of course, and we can make from that whatever we want.

And Soule does not use a real orchestra? The music is not performed and then recorded? Well, then he does an acceptable job at what he does: but I shall still claim that the samples I heard are rather bland and repetitive, and that he was better back in the Total Annihilation days. But that's just me.

And, on an off-topical sidenote... If Bioshock is only going to be about 20% as good as one of the System Shock titles, then it is already going to be better than most games... So at least there is something that warrants looking forward to it.

 

[Solik]

This thread is a case in point in how not only can you never please everyone, but you can even make people upset in entirely opposite ways -- and yet they will still unite to criticize your work.

Argument 1: The music is all bland and repetitive. Where's the soul, the life?

Argument 2: Game music shouldn't be so in-your-face. This soundtrack is too epic!

 

[Levski 1912]

Music doesn't have to be epic to have a soul, Solik.

 

[Tintin]

And Soule does not use a real orchestra? The music is not performed and then recorded?

No. I think Gothic 3's soundtrack was performed by an actual orchestra, though. Soule is basically known as being the cheaper way to get an realistic orchestral score without hiring an actual orchestra (nothing wrong with that). Meaning, he's very good at producing realistic orchestral pieces using just samples. That's not to say all of his stuff is samples, I don't follow his scores too closely but there will be probably be scores where he had an actual orchestra.

 

[Twinfalls]

Soule is basically known as being the cheaper way to get an realistic orchestral score without hiring an actual orchestra

Herein lies the problem. He is hired not for his compositional skills and artistry, but for his cheapness in delivering a soundtrack that is teh epic. The song's composition take a back seat to their overall 'sound'. I haven't heard his earlier work, but give me the variety and mood of Eric Heberling's DF work over this stuff any day.

It's wasted anyhow, one can still immediately notice that it is not a real orchestra playing anyway.

 

[Twinfalls]

Yes I quite agree, shut up you blithering idiots.

And you are....?

 

[Naked_Lunch]

Oh come on, don't pull that BS. He's "new" here, so to speak, so his opinion doesn't matter?

What a crock of shit.

 

[Twinfalls]

Oh come off it NL, don't be a giant bovine masturbation machine.

His 'opinion'??

The 'opinion' that reads 'shut up both of you LOL look I am so cool'?

If you're feeling like being heroic today, why don't you fire up Freedom Force instead.

 

[LlamaGod]

twinfalls, let's run off and get married

 

[Tintin]

It's wasted anyhow, one can still immediately notice that it is not a real orchestra playing anyway.

Pretty much, when those french horns start blaring out "New Age" music. Also Bach composed soft rock.

 

[Twinfalls]

¿qué?

 

[Tintin]

It's still undecided whether Vivaldi composed trance or techno, personally, I think he was more of a jungle guy, like Holst. But we can't distract from Soule's funky New Age tunes.

 

[Twinfalls]

That 'market' song sounds pretty new-ageish to me. New age in the derogatory sense, mind you, there were some very good musicians who could perhaps be put into the category (I'm a fan of Popol Vuh for example).

Tinty, I think you'll find that nowhere in what descriptions there are for 'new age' is there a rule that says 'Anything composed electronically using any samples of orchestral instruments can not be new age-ish'.

Btw your name-dropping of classical composers sure does impress - but then you're the guy who thinks a Beethoven piece cannot be sophisticated if it's in MIDI, so you must know stuff. :wink:

 

[Tintin]

I think you'll find that nowhere in what descriptions there are for 'new age' is there a rule that says 'Anything composed electronically using any samples of orchestral instruments can not be new age-ish'.

I agree, clearly "epic" (in your own words) style orchestral arrangements are clearly New Age. Especially in that second track with the sharp strings, I mean that is just so New Age. Also in the first track when those horns started playing the Morrowind theme - right away my roommate came over and said "Cool new age music"!

Btw your name-dropping of classical composers sure does impress

I love the Codex, I want to be cool, that's why listing off classical composers is so impressive (and we all know how much effort it takes to know the names of some composers). Maybe another So/\/iK yoUtH!!$14! reference and I'll up there!

but then you're the guy who thinks a Beethoven piece cannot be sophisticated if it's in MIDI

Of course, there's nothing better than comparing a Beethoven piece with a 4 instrument Daggerfall piece. There's, lyke, no difference!! They're both instrumental, and they're not heavy rock, so they're, lyke, the same!

 

[Twinfalls]

Pretending to ignore what I write won't get you anywhere. The 'Market' piece is the new-ageish one, Tinty. The Market piece.

And yes, Beethoven can be put into MIDI. We had this discussion last time. Have you not learned anything? Yet according to you, a Beethoven in MIDI can in 'no way be more sophisticated' than a Soule composition.

 

[Tintin]

Pretending to ignore what I write won't get you anywhere.

Yeah, I hate it when people ignore what they write.

"What's been previewed here wouldn't even cut it as C-grade new-age music for some backwater crystal and bead shop"
-Twinfalls

Oh right - "What's been previewed here" is a synonym for Market Piece. Gotcha.

And yes, Beethoven can be put into MIDI. We had this discussion last time. Have you not learned anything?

Yeah, we did, and unfortunately I think you prefer to argue with your fabrications rather then what people actually wrote.

Yet according to you, a Beethoven in MIDI can in 'no way be more sophisticated' than a Soule composition.

Actually, what I wrote was that comparing Beethoven to Daggerfall was idiotic because Beethoven pieces are closer to resembling Soule's then Daggerfalls, but hey, whatever works for you.

Some people might say "hold on a second, we have a 4 track MIDI composition, and a full orchestra piece, and you're associating Beethoven with the 4 track midi piece?" But I fully agree with you, it's a smart move, your a genius, SoNiK yOuTH@$1

 

[Twinfalls]

How about a one-track piano piece. Not possible to be sophisticated, Mr Music Man?

Who's comparing Beethoven to Daggerfall, but you?

The point being made, and I'll go nice and slowly for you here, is this:

Tinty: Daggerfall's compositions can in no way be more sophisticated than Soule's Morrowind compositions, because they are in MIDI.

Me: Let me illustrate why that is wrong. Beethoven can be transcribed into MIDI. What you are therefore saying is that Soule's compositions must always be more sophisticated than Beethoven's.

Tinty: <blather, incoherence, idiocy>

Give it up already, Tinty. No-one here is remotely interested in any of this shit, thanks to your supreme dumbfuckery. Allow me to finish up on your behalf:

Tinty: <Blather, incoherence, misquoting, SonIC YoUTHHHHHH!!!!1111111!!!!>

 

[Tintin]

Tinty: Daggerfall's compositions can in no way be more sophisticated than Soule's Morrowind compositions, because they are in MIDI.

Yes, Daggerfall's basic MIDIs with 4-5 instruments cannot be more complex then a score (one that has to be sequenced realistically, nonetheless) for a full orchestra, aka Morrowind. Basic knowledge.

Me: Let me illustrate why that is wrong. Beethoven can be transcribed into MIDI. What you are therefore saying is that Soule's compositions are more sophisticated than Beethoven's.

No, little Twinfalls, because you see, Beethoven's orchestral pieces are not basic MIDI with 4-5 instruments, they are pieces for a full orchestra. And no, making it a MIDI does not magically take away the fact that it is for a full orchestra and not 4-5 instruments like Daggerfalls simplistic MIDIs were.

Give it up already, Tinty. No-one here is remotely interested in any of this shit, thanks to your supreme dumbfuckery. Allow me to finish up on your behalf:

Yes, it seems you certainly were not intersting in backing up what you said about New Age music earlier. Nice way to evade admitting an error, "lol ur stoopid go away".

How about a one-track piano piece. Not possible to be sophisticated, Mr Music Man?

Hmm...now where have I heard this before....Oh right....when I already brought this up a few posts ago

SoNiK youTH! is a New Age/rap group I hear.

 

[Twinfalls]

Beethoven's orchestral pieces are not basic MIDI with 4-5 instruments, they are pieces for a full orchestra.

What, like the piano-only movement in his Moonlight sonata? Like any of the piano-only pieces he wrote? Which could not be transcribed in MIDI? Which is clearly the point I am making....

Fuck you are truly an ignoramus.

 

[Tintin]

"Twinny"...is it really so hard to drill it into your fucking head that Daggerfall is nothing like , and nowhere near the quality of composition of Beethoven or other renowned classical composers? Why can't you argue about Daggerfall without bringing in other pieces of music and using them....in order to defend Daggerfall (even when they are closer to Soule then to Daggerfall)? Why do you keep twisting the stupid argument around? Have you ever actually taken a look inside the MIDIs? They are, in most cases, a percussion line, a bass line, and simple 2-3 melody lines (and sometimes simpler). The only value in almost all of them is velocity and nothing else. In contrast, Morrowind is a score for a full orchestra, and as the composer Soule has to do a lot more then adjust velocities. Maybe we can make a little list: DF: simple composition, velocities. MW: composition, velocities, expression, modulation, EQ, reverb, mastering. Anyone with any single fucking clue about music will tell you a MW piece is way more complicated then a DF piece. There's a fucking difference between being complex and being better to listen to. Daggerfall's music was undoubtebly better and more diverse compositions then Morrowind's. That is a completely different fucking thing then the complexity of each finished piece of music. This is what happens when you get into a discussion about music with someone who has no clue about what goes into the actual production of music. The only thing you've been arguing all this time is "hehe i lyke the music better". Get a clue about what it takes to make a finished piece of music then start coming to talk about whether a piece is more complex or not.

And I'm still waiting for your response about the New Age epic orchestral music.

 

[Twinfalls]

And I repeat:

Beethoven's orchestral pieces are not basic MIDI with 4-5 instruments, they are pieces for a full orchestra.

What, like the piano-only movement in his Moonlight sonata? Like any of the piano-only pieces he wrote? Which could not be transcribed in MIDI? Which is clearly the point I am making....

Fuck you are truly an ignoramus.

 

[Tintin]

Except that we're talking about Daggerfall and Morrowind, neither of which can compare to the compositions of classical works by Beethoven. What, are you disagreeeing that Beethoven's orchestral pieces are not basic MIDI with 4-5 instruments? Tell us why you disagree.

And I repeat, about the fucking original argument instead of sidetracking because you don't know shit about music:

"Twinny"...is it really so hard to drill it into your fucking head that Daggerfall is nothing like , and nowhere near the quality of composition of Beethoven or other renowned classical composers? Why can't you argue about Daggerfall without bringing in other pieces of music and using them....in order to defend Daggerfall (even when they are closer to Soule then to Daggerfall)? Why do you keep twisting the stupid argument around? Have you ever actually taken a look inside the MIDIs? They are, in most cases, a percussion line, a bass line, and simple 2-3 melody lines (and sometimes simpler). The only value in almost all of them is velocity and nothing else. In contrast, Morrowind is a score for a full orchestra, and as the composer Soule has to do a lot more then adjust velocities. Maybe we can make a little list: DF: simple composition, velocities. MW: composition, velocities, expression, modulation, EQ, reverb, mastering. Anyone with any single fucking clue about music will tell you a MW piece is way more complicated then a DF piece. There's a fucking difference between being complex and being better to listen to. Daggerfall's music was undoubtebly better and more diverse compositions then Morrowind's. That is a completely different fucking thing then the complexity of each finished piece of music. This is what happens when you get into a discussion about music with someone who has no clue about what goes into the actual production of music. The only thing you've been arguing all this time is "hehe i lyke the music better". Get a clue about what it takes to make a finished piece of music then start coming to talk about whether a piece is more complex or not.

And I'm still waiting for your response about the New Age epic orchestral music.