Can a game be an rpg if it doesnt have choice and consequence ?

[Dave the Druid]

If it doesn't have any choice and consequence, is it even a GAME, or are you just watching an interactive cutscene? Do I need to play this, or can I just let some Youtube dork do it for me?

 

[flushfire]

Was C&C even a buzzword in the time of early RPGs? AFAIK it wasn't. I didn't have internet until the late 90s, but I've read a lot about RPGs thru magazines back then and I don't remember it being mentioned that much, if at all. It wasn't until I joined here that I saw it mentioned from time to time. I mean something like Betrayal at Krondor wouldn't even pass as an RPG according to these criteria of what an RPG is supposed to be.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Choice & Consequences is a meme propagated by people who can't be bothered to play RPGs released before 1997 and who lack familiarity with Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books or the gamebooks that combined RPG elements with CYOAs.

Computer games are singularly unsuited to providing narrative C&C relative to pen-and-paper RPGs, and complexity of game mechanics is the true C&C.

 

[Dave the Druid]

Choice & Consequences is a meme propagated by people who can't be bothered to play RPGs released before 1997 and who lack familiarity with Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books or the gamebooks that combined RPG elements with CYOAs.

Computer games are singularly unsuited to providing narrative C&C relative to pen-and-paper RPGs, and complexity of game mechanics is the true C&C.

Oh yeah, cause 80s CRPGs had no Choices and Consequences. None whatsoever

 

[PapaPetro]

Choice & Consequences is a meme propagated by people who can't be bothered to play RPGs released before 1997 and who lack familiarity with Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books or the gamebooks that combined RPG elements with CYOAs.

Computer games are singularly unsuited to providing narrative C&C relative to pen-and-paper RPGs, and complexity of game mechanics is the true C&C.

Oh yeah, cause 80s CRPGs had no Choices and Consequences. None whatsoever

Grinding monsters is related to plot, not story. A means to an end to move things forward, like a car chase scene in a movie.

 

[Dave the Druid]

Choice & Consequences is a meme propagated by people who can't be bothered to play RPGs released before 1997 and who lack familiarity with Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books or the gamebooks that combined RPG elements with CYOAs.

Computer games are singularly unsuited to providing narrative C&C relative to pen-and-paper RPGs, and complexity of game mechanics is the true C&C.

Oh yeah, cause 80s CRPGs had no Choices and Consequences. None whatsoever

Grinding monsters is related to plot, not story. A means to an end to move things forward, like a car chase scene in a movie.

Nah, I was referencing the fact that your characters' alignment can change as a CONSEQUENCE if you CHOOSE to fight friendlies.

And I was being facetious. Obviously we're talking about modern C&C (which started with Fallout 1 right? Is there any earlier, pre-1997 RPG that handles choices and consequences in the same way as Fallout? Ultima IV's virtues system doesn't really count, it's too different)

 

[JarlFrank]

Choice & Consequences is a meme propagated by people who can't be bothered to play RPGs released before 1997 and who lack familiarity with Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books or the gamebooks that combined RPG elements with CYOAs.

Computer games are singularly unsuited to providing narrative C&C relative to pen-and-paper RPGs, and complexity of game mechanics is the true C&C.

Oh yeah, cause 80s CRPGs had no Choices and Consequences. None whatsoever

Grinding monsters is related to plot, not story. A means to an end to move things forward, like a car chase scene in a movie.

Nah, I was referencing the fact that your characters' alignment can change as a CONSEQUENCE if you CHOOSE to fight friendlies.

And I was being facetious. Obviously we're talking about modern C&C (which started with Fallout 1 right? Is there any earlier, pre-1997 RPG that handles choices and consequences in the same way as Fallout? Ultima IV's virtues system doesn't really count, it's too different)

Dark Sun has some.

 

[Egosphere]

Dark Souls is on the list of top 100 rpgs on this site. Has very little c&c. Optional boss fight against Gwyndolin, optional secret areas, and a binary choice at the very end that spits out a different cutscene.

 

[KateMicucci]

Choice & Consequences is a meme propagated by people who can't be bothered to play RPGs released before 1997 and who lack familiarity with Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books or the gamebooks that combined RPG elements with CYOAs.

Computer games are singularly unsuited to providing narrative C&C relative to pen-and-paper RPGs, and complexity of game mechanics is the true C&C.

My recollection is that the C&C meme started with the marketing for Witcher 1. The marketers argued that it was the first game where the consequences of your choices wouldn't be revealed until much later in the game, while for most games at the time the consequences were (supposedly) revealed immediately and people would just quickload to get the better outcome. I mean, you could say that Baldurr's Gate or Fallout 1 had C&C but nobody bought it for that reason, they bought them for sword fights and power armor with mind-blowing HD graphics.

My recollection is also that the C&C meme pretty much died out with Telltale Games when C&C's limitations as a major game element were finally understood.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

My recollection is also that the C&C meme pretty much died out with Telltale Games when C&C's limitations as a major game element were finally understood.

The C&C meme died out everywhere, except on RPG Codex.

 

[gaussgunner]

"C&C" might have been coined by the early Codexers to describe that aspect of older CRPGs.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

And I was being facetious. Obviously we're talking about modern C&C (which started with Fallout 1 right? Is there any earlier, pre-1997 RPG that handles choices and consequences in the same way as Fallout? Ultima IV's virtues system doesn't really count, it's too different)

Wasteland, Dragon Wars, Quest for Glory, Star Trail, arguably Darklands and Ultima V...

 

[KateMicucci]

What C&C was there in Wasteland? Explode them like a blood sausage, or turn them into a fine red mist?

 

[Sreggin Etah I]

Choice & Consequences is a meme propagated by people who can't be bothered to play RPGs released before 1997 and who lack familiarity with Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books or the gamebooks that combined RPG elements with CYOAs.

Computer games are singularly unsuited to providing narrative C&C relative to pen-and-paper RPGs, and complexity of game mechanics is the true C&C.

Oh yeah, cause 80s CRPGs had no Choices and Consequences. None whatsoever

C'mon bro, that is a slippery slope, if this is C&C then literally any decision in-game is C&C, stealing a car in GTA is C&C cause you had the choice of not to, now a random generated NPC have no car. fighting a battle in a JRPG is C&C cause you could've run from it instead, now you have more blood in your hands. Jumping on a goomba in Mario is C&C cause you could've jumped pass him instead, you monster. While all actions in a video game are a choice and have a consequence, even starting it(you had the choice to click Exit instead of New Game), we need to draw clear lines so it does not end up in a meaningless slippery slope term.

For me C&C are distinct choices that feels meaningful, that's going to have long term consequences for your gameplay or that's going to change the game world permanently, or story. Emphasis on distinct, choosing your own build in a RPG, strategy/playstyle in a Strategy game or taking your own path in a story/campaign, needs to be distinct enough and have long term consequences to be considered C&C. I don't think Half life or Call of duty and others linear games have any C&C, yes each playthrough of someone is going to be slightly different, some are going to die more, others are going to be more efficient, but not enough to count(we are against slippery slope here). Same with your example, not killing a random encounter of friendly flies is not a meaningful choice, neither consequence(unless i'm missing some context here), neither is choosing to kill or not the scientists in Half Life.

The more freedom a game gives to the player to make each playthrough and playstyle different the better.

I do think almost all if not all RPGs have choice and consequence, since almost all of them have some kinda of character customization or story path that can feel distinct enough to worth a replay. That does not mean all C&C are equal though, choosing spears instead of axes is not going to make the game as distinct as choosing another faction in Fallout New Vegas.

 

[Dave the Druid]

Choice & Consequences is a meme propagated by people who can't be bothered to play RPGs released before 1997 and who lack familiarity with Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books or the gamebooks that combined RPG elements with CYOAs.

Computer games are singularly unsuited to providing narrative C&C relative to pen-and-paper RPGs, and complexity of game mechanics is the true C&C.

Oh yeah, cause 80s CRPGs had no Choices and Consequences. None whatsoever

C'mon bro, that is a slippery slope, if this is C&C then literally any decision in-game is C&C, stealing a car in GTA is C&C cause you had the choice of not to, now a random generated NPC have no car. fighting a battle in a JRPG is C&C cause you could've run from it instead, now you have more blood in your hands. Jumping on a goomba in Mario is C&C cause you could've jumped pass him instead, you monster. While all actions in a video game are a choice and have a consequence, even starting it(you had the choice to click Exit instead of New Game), we need to draw clear lines so it does not end up in a meaningless slippery slope term.

For me C&C are distinct choices that feels meaningful, that's going to have long term consequences for your gameplay or that's going to change the game world permanently, or story. Emphasis on distinct, choosing your own build in a RPG, strategy/playstyle in a Strategy game or taking your own path in a story/campaign, needs to be distinct enough and have long term consequences to be considered C&C. I don't think Half life or Call of duty and others linear games have any C&C, yes each playthrough of someone is going to be slightly different, some are going to die more, others are going to be more efficient, but not enough to count(we are against slippery slope here). Same with your example, not killing a random encounter of friendly flies is not a meaningful choice, neither consequence(unless i'm missing some context here), neither is choosing to kill or not the scientists in Half Life.

The more freedom a game gives to the player to make each playthrough and playstyle different the better.

I do think almost all if not all RPGs have choice and consequence, since almost all of them have some kinda of character customization or story path that can feel distinct enough to worth a replay. That does not mean all C&C are equal though, choosing spears instead of axes is not going to make the game as distinct as choosing another faction in Fallout New Vegas.

...hence why I said I was being facetious in the very next post? And that we we're obviously talking about modern C&C which arguably started with Fallout? (Although apparently there's a bit of that kind of C&C in Dark Sun and a few other earlier CRPGs. Also Fallout 1 being modern lol)

 

[Sreggin Etah I]

...hence why I said I was being facetious in the very next post?

Ah ok i did not read much of the thread. I do think creating your party is a C&C, the problem with CRPGs design is that the party creation is not welcoming for experimentation in you first playthrough. Almost everyone is going to go with the safe balanced but boring party: fighter + mage + thief + Cleric. I do too, you can not blame them, you don't know how hard the game is going to be or if it's going to soft-lock you if you don't have one of the standard classes, like a thief to open a door or some shit or a monster immune to physical damage. Technically you could go with a party of only physical damage dealers in Icewind Dale, no mage or cleric, but that's going to feel like shit compared to a balanced party, you going to have to buy a lot of potions and scrolls just to survive.

and that we we're obviously talking about modern C&C which arguably started with Fallout?

what is modern C&C? how does it differ from old ones?

 

[Bigg Boss]

Ness.

 

[thesheeep]

Are we intentionally conflating the meaning of the term C&C for good boy points?

Because that is fooken tarded.

C&C corresponds to a specific situation in games, where a *story* choice leads to a change in the story experience from that point on or in the future. Is C&C necessary for a game to be RPG? Of course not. RPGs are about the actions and their efficacy determined by stats that the player can select and improve.

C&C can easily exist in all other types of computer games and yes, even in FPSs.

Exactly. C&C in the story sense is not needed for RPGs to be RPGs.

Otherwise we'd have hundreds or thousands of games that are clearly RPGs that suddenly wouldn't be anymore. Tons of roguelikes (so some of the most hardcore RPGs to begin with) come to mind. Or blobbers that have a story of course, but no real way for you to influence the story beyond progressing in it.
Come to think of it, most RPGs (or RPG hybrids) have little to no C&C.

C&C doesn't make or break any genre. It is a welcome bonus in any game, though, and some games would suck a lot without it.