Can We Get Another Turn-Based CRPG Already?

[Black Cat]

@ Excommunicator

I wouldn't expect you to give anything other than subjective answers obviously. I am fine with that so long as you understand the topic, but I don't think you do understand.

Ehm, it is you who don't. You keep talking about anime being an art style with such and such qualities, those of Pokemon mostly, while anime is the blanket term for all art styles involved in japanese animation, regardless of any other consideration or particular qualities. If it is animation produced in the land of sushi and tentacles, it is anime. Period.

There are, say, cultural conventions, but those are cultural conventions stretching through many art styles and not a result of all those being part of one unique art style. Fucking Berserk = Pokemon, man. Think about it. It doesn't bloody compute.

The biggest problem with you is that you take it personally that your favourite styles are seen as less mature or even immature, and then you try to get intellectual about and ignore your own instinct just to feel better about yourself on the matter.

Uhm, my favorite styles? What part about I don't actually watch anime outside of puntual cases are you unable to understand? Go back to the list of games with good art styles I made, in which there are many japanese games yet none similar to what you deem anime. I never said I actually liked anime in all of its forms, mostly because to actually put things like Pokemon, Jin Roh, and Witch Hunter Robin in one big and homogeneous art style is retarded. And then you acuse me of jumping at conclusions, right.

I'm not arguing to defend anime, because I don't like anime itself, only particular series and particular styles. I'm arguing because anime isn't a bloody art style but a blanket term defining all japanese animation regardless of art style and genre, be it Pokemon, Jin Roh, Blame, CLAMP's latest shit, or whatever the fuck you want.

So when you are talking of anime as if Pokemon, you are saying this and this and this and this = Pokemon, which doesn't even work as a joke.

Are we going to sit here and pretend that the artists were not aiming for a certain thing when they came up with the various artistic styles? Most of the artists responsible for the things being discussed (including even the anime) I am quite sure are skilled and experienced and are quite aware of the styles they used, and the way people are likely to interpret them, including the apparent level of maturity in their art.

Of course not, because the artists do aim for certain things when they come up with the various artistic styles. Problem is, again, anime is not an art style. So the actual problem here is that I was interpreting you as talking of anime (i.e: The sum of all japanese animation styles) and you were talking of Pokemon. So, sure, Pokemon isn't mature, and it is cartoony. Wow! News at eleven.

You know it is quite okay to be seen by other people as having less mature tastes in things? You sound like one of those die-hard fans of a particular author who argue in the most academic and scientific way about the authors creations in the face of any kind of criticism, going so far as to build a whole web of internal logic to defend the content/author, and then the author comes along and gets asked a question about it and hes like "What?? Oh no, I didn't even think about those details! I just put that into the book because it seemed cool at the time!".

Ehm, I don't care about maturity, really. I mean, I'm on a site about spending great deals of time playing games about elven witches and angry dwarves fighting green guys because they want to lead adventurous lives, jesus, I really must be taking maturity seriously. And, as I said, I like Ravenloft, myself, and know my Warhammer lore well enough when it comes to the Eldar, at least, so my belief on them being immature isn't an excuse to dislike them, nor vice-versa. Again, uhm, way to throw shit around, I guess.

Such a response is hiding an unsophisticated approach to design, but not so much as it is hiding a very elementary understanding of style and symbolism.

Sure, I don't understand symbolism. That's why I can write essays on Kabalah and Theology from memory, and why half my Let's Play thingies' length is actually about me discussing cross referenced alchemical and occult symbolism no one cares about. Yeah, whatever, really. You do know your art shit and your symbolism because you like Ravenloft, sure.

@ malko_sundervere



If you like Zeno Clash the Kurokasha likes you. :3

But no, there are other games with surreal and dreamlike styles, but Zeno Clash is pretty much Zeno Clash, and the other ones are pretty much themselves.

 

[Excommunicator]

Ignorant oversimplified responses don't deserve a thoughtful response. Learn it.

@ Excommunicator

I wouldn't expect you to give anything other than subjective answers obviously. I am fine with that so long as you understand the topic, but I don't think you do understand.

Ehm, it is you who don't. You keep talking about anime being an art style with such and such qualities, those of Pokemon mostly, while anime is the blanket term for all art styles involved in japanese animation, regardless of any other consideration or particular qualities. If it is animation produced in the land of sushi and tentacles, it is anime. Period.

There are, say, cultural conventions, but those are cultural conventions stretching through many art styles and not a result of all those being part of one unique art style. Fucking Berserk = Pokemon, man. Think about it. It doesn't bloody compute.

I suspect the only reason you go back to this terminology debate is because you know I don't have much knowledge on it. I know next to nothing about anime styles, but I don't care what is technically anime and what isn't, because that discussion is an extraction of a larger, more important one. As soon as you try to debate the terminology you completely circumvent the point of the discussion, and that is this: the evaluation of an art style identified within a piece to coincide (aesthetically, symbolically, psychologically and so on) with certain themes, "mature" or otherwise.

Uhm, my favorite styles? What part about I don't actually watch anime outside of puntual cases are you unable to understand? Go back to the list of games with good art styles I made, in which there are many japanese games yet none similar to what you deem anime. I never said I actually liked anime in all of its forms, mostly because to actually put things like Pokemon, Jin Roh, and Witch Hunter Robin in one big and homogeneous art style is retarded. And then you acuse me of jumping at conclusions, right.

I'm not arguing to defend anime, because I don't like anime itself, only particular series and particular styles. I'm arguing because anime isn't a bloody art style but a blanket term defining all japanese animation regardless of art style and genre, be it Pokemon, Jin Roh, Blame, CLAMP's latest shit, or whatever the fuck you want.

Pokemon was a single example. You know what an example is, right? A specific thing. Why should it matter if Pokemon relates back to specific terminology or styles? It is an example showing a contrast between one thing and another. That. Is. All.

I am aware there are many, many styles that can fall under "anime", but again, it doesn't matter. This is not a debate about specific things that fall under a specific term. For me this is about styles identified in specific products, whether they are technically anime or not is purely circumstantial at this point. The only point I am making in using the "anime" art as examples is the fact that I have so far identified elements of intentional visual simplification in all of the "anime" that I have seen. That makes them good examples of what I think are inherent weaknesses in dealing with mature topics in contrast to less mature ones. You don't have to agree, and I am not going to change that opinion.

So when you are talking of anime as if Pokemon, you are saying Pokemon, which doesn't even work as a joke.

Just one example, mentioned once. You know why I used it? Because just about everyone will recognise it without having to have it linked, and it is a more concentrated version of the phenomena occurring in all similar styles. The example was never used to represent every form of anime, only to reference as a common grounded point.

So the actual problem here is that I was interpreting you as talking of anime (i.e: The sum of all japanese animation styles) and you were talking of Pokemon.

I wasn't.

Sure, I don't understand symbolism. That's why I can write essays on Kabalah and Theology from memory, and why half my Let's Play thingies' length is actually about me discussing cross referenced alchemical and occult symbolism no one cares about. Yeah, whatever, really. You do know your art shit and your symbolism because you like Ravenloft, sure.

That wasn't what the analogy was about. What I was saying was that I think there is a pretty large emotional element in the way people defend things like anime (in the same form that it exists when defending computer games against outsiders, as in the games as art debate) when people criticise such things. Many people do criticise them with superficial criticisms and that emotional response works in those situations, but when when the criticisms towards these forms of entertainment/art are actually based on more than that, it isn't enough. People often go so far as to project their own analysis into things as a way of defending it when there is often no connection whatsoever between the original product and the criticism.

That is what makes anime lovers around here act like pack animals every time I debate the topic. You know who you are.

Ehm, I don't care about maturity, really. I mean, I'm on a site about spending great deals of time playing games about elven witches and angry dwarves fighting green guys because they want to lead adventurous lives, jesus, I really must be taking maturity seriously. And, as I said, I like Ravenloft, myself, and know my Warhammer lore well enough when it comes to the Eldar, at least, so my belief on them being immature isn't an excuse to dislike them, nor vice-versa. Again, uhm, way to throw shit around, I guess.

You probably know it better than me since, outside of Dawn of War, I have little knowledge on the specifics of the universe. I would admit that certain immaturities do exist in Warhammer (I never said maturity was a binary thing), after all I did say Warhammer was caricatured, but I would still call it a much better context to coincide with and portray mature topics and themes than the anime that I have seen. Not in every way because anime obviously has emotional advantages afforded by the use of more stylised visuals, but when maturity can actually be linked back to physiology and psychology in ways that I most certainly believe go beyond plain matters of taste, I believe there are inherent advantages and disadvantages when you analyse the details relating to the way the human mind interprets the information.

Garfunkel made mention of the large eyes and claimed that it meant nothing, yet apparently he doesn't realise that humans - and many animals too - are psychologically wired to recognise things - specifically larger eyes - in order to identify offspring, because most baby animals do have proportionally much larger eyes, the identification of which is a survival mechanism for both the adult and the baby. Unless you can separate that biological instinct - which you can't, don't kid youselves - then you certainly can't claim that it is just my experience with cartoons that gives me that opinion.

 

[mondblut]

If it is animation produced in the land of sushi and tentacles, it is anime. Period.

You mean my avatar is anime too?

 

[Black Cat]

That makes them good examples of what I think are inherent weaknesses in dealing with mature topics in contrast to less mature ones. You don't have to agree, and I am not going to change that opinion.

The problem is that you keep repeating that while ignoring the fact that japanese animation has already dealt with topics as mature as anything dealt with on Warhammer or Ravenloft or anything you want to add, and it did it well, and the only reason you don't know about it is because, first, it isn't well known about in the west and, second, you aren't interested in knowing about it.

So you can keep inventing theories all you want, but your theories will keep being denied by the simple facts, and that's it, and you would know about it if you did your research as it is suposed to be done before opening your bloody mouth and saying stupid things.

Garfunkel made mention of the large eyes and claimed that it meant nothing, yet apparently he doesn't realise that humans - and many animals too - are psychologically wired to recognise things - specifically larger eyes - in order to identify offspring, because most baby animals do have proportionally much larger eyes, the identification of which is a survival mechanism for both the adult and the baby. Unless you can separate that biological instinct - which you can't, don't kid youselves - then you certainly can't claim that it is just my experience with cartoons that gives me that opinion.

Big eyes =/= Anime, as you would know if you, like, made your own research instead of expecting others to do it for you. To say Big Eyes = Anime is to say Oblivion = RPG, period. Easily marketable? Yes. Representative of an entire something? Nope.

You mean my avatar is anime too?

I don't know, you tell me.

Japanese write the English term "animation" in katakana as アニメーション (animēshon, pronounced [animeːɕoɴ]), and the term アニメ (anime, pronounced [anime] ( listen) in Japanese) emerged in the 1970s as an abbreviation.[17] Others claim that the word derives from the French phrase dessin animé.[4] Japanese-speakers use both the original and abbreviated forms interchangeably, but the shorter form occurs more commonly.

It's, in the end, as simple as that.

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

Never really got into the whole 'Gaming Art Style!' thing. I am guessing it is due to the games I began with largely having little, to no, 'Art Style', so I see games purely through the gameplay they deliver, with graphical content merely being a window and representation to the gameplay itself.

Is it Art?

Can you feel the Art?

Oh God the Art is Heavan!

The Art; can you feel it?

Multiheaded Art.

True Art.

Art on Art.

Art overload.

 

[Excommunicator]

So you can keep inventing theories all you want, but your theories will keep being denied by the simple facts, and that's it, and you would know about it if you did your research as it is suposed to be done before opening your bloody mouth and saying stupid things.

Facts? You really are not a learning animal, at all.

You are also a caricature of yourself, and the only satisfaction I have in responding to the emotional, reductionist BS you spew out is for the benefit of the reasonable minded people who are preferring to participate in this discussion passively.

You made the right choice, observers.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

I can feel the Art.

 

[Black Cat]

Facts? You really are not a learning animal, at all.

Facts. Example: Utena = Gnosticism, Jungian Psychology, Social Structures, Maturity, Kabalah, Budhism, and a very long etc, with lesbians thrown in for good measure. That's, as I said, fact, as you can rebuild the entirety of Gnostic belief, to mention the one I'm most familiar with, from nothing but the symbols present in the entirety of both the series and the movie through different prisms.

Meaning, regardless of what you believe is there, that's what is there. Fact.



It is you who believe I say Fact not meaning Fact. I pick the words I use vewy carefully.

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

I can feel the Art.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Garfunkel made mention of the large eyes and claimed that it meant nothing, yet apparently he doesn't realise that humans - and many animals too - are psychologically wired to recognise things - specifically larger eyes - in order to identify offspring, because most baby animals do have proportionally much larger eyes, the identification of which is a survival mechanism for both the adult and the baby. Unless you can separate that biological instinct - which you can't, don't kid youselves - then you certainly can't claim that it is just my experience with cartoons that gives me that opinion.

What...what the fuck does that have to do with the discussion...or anyhting, at all? Why are you sperging so hard?

 

[Excommunicator]

I love information overload on my screens. Feels good.


Also: Poos?



Don't worry about it CF. I'll tell you about it all one day. Maybe.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

That is what makes anime lovers around here act like pack animals every time I debate the topic. You know who you are.

Starting to sound a bit like someone arguing at length that just because he loves a good dick, he's not necessarily gay.

 

[Excommunicator]

The comment was directed at you, obviously, jimbob.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

Michaelangelo has already judged you for watching degenerate cartoons. It's too late to make amends.

 

[Excommunicator]

Then I die in the flames.

And you're all going to burn with me.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

I'm still pure. Though I did watch Pokemon as a kid.

 

[Black Cat]

I'm still pure. Though I did watch Pokemon as a kid.

I can't believe that. No one pure would know that game.

Do confess!

 

[mondblut]

I don't know, you tell me.

Well, Celtic Tales is a KOEI game. For years, I thought KOEI are a rare breed of oriental aryans due to keeping their eyes, noses, mouths, hairstyles and dressing code in human likeness instead of imitating a deformed foetus dressed in an industrial dumpster, but now you are saying anything drawn by a japanese is a priori anime. Am I now tainted with this filth? Oh, the shame!

 

[torpid]

Why are you sperging so hard?

The whole "I am a rational, dispassionate super brain watching you weak, emotional minds" kinda gives it away, doesn't it?

 

[Tolknaz]

For years, I thought KOEI are a rare breed of oriental aryans due to keeping their eyes, noses, mouths, hairstyles and dressing code in human likeness instead of imitating a deformed foetus dressed in an industrial dumpster

Old KOEI games were really awesome. Celtic Tales, Genghis Khan series, Romance of the three Kingdoms series, Bandit Kings of Ancient China and Uncharted Waters 1 & 2 are all really great games. And none of that teletubbies faggotry to be seen anywhere. Too bad they didn't make any RPG-s during the time they made their great strategy hybrids.

 

[Xor]

You made the right choice, observers.

I like how you act like you won the argument even though you pretty clearly lost.

 

[Excommunicator]

This board is so full of half wits that don't even understand insight when it is written clearly and concisely. That is not my problem.

The only way to have "lost" that argument is to have agreed with the completely misguided opinions on the other side.

I lost interest as soon as I realised she was quoting things that I didn't actually say.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

I lost interest as soon as I realised she was quoting things that I didn't actually say.

Constant harsh reinforcement is the only way the untermensch befouling the codex with their spoor will even come close to enlightenment, so take heart in your works here. Besides, your posts in this thread have already won over the ones too sensible to argue your point in the first place.

 

[Johannes]

Japanese write the English term "animation" in katakana as アニメーション (animēshon, pronounced [animeːɕoɴ]), and the term アニメ (anime, pronounced [anime] ( listen) in Japanese) emerged in the 1970s as an abbreviation.[17] Others claim that the word derives from the French phrase dessin animé.[4] Japanese-speakers use both the original and abbreviated forms interchangeably, but the shorter form occurs more commonly.

It's, in the end, as simple as that.

From that quote I can only tell that animation is called anime in japanese (doesn't include the specification of being japanese either). But it doesn't answer what anime means in english, which isn't as simple as that.

In western world I do think that anime more commonly means japanese styled animation, not just japanese animation. While I'm not well versed in any kind of animation/cartoon history, so I can't really pinpoint the exact defining differences between the western and jap traditions (which is not just geographical - if I live in Finland, watch DragoballZ and Pokemon and they give inspire me to produce something similar, I'm of course part of the jap tradition), but I do have a hunch that such can be found if the looker is well versed enough in the history of both.
And of course both western animation and anime are huge umbrella terms which encompass tons of more distinct subgenres. And certainly enough room to have both mature and immature stuff on both sides, even if I can't agree that mature content would need somekind of special art style to fully bring its maturity to bear.

You made the right choice, observers.

Yeah but did you?

 

[sgc_meltdown]

watch DragoballZ and Pokemon and they give inspire me to produce something similar

I wish you success in this and look forward to seeing traditional finnish folklore figures being featured in japanese comicbook porn in the near future.