Can We Get Another Turn-Based CRPG Already?

[zeitgeist]

If the purpose of fancy 3d graphics and animation is to create a more cinematic, "immersive" and "real feeling" (not necessarily realistic) visual experience in a game, then that seems to conflict with breaking up the action into separate turns.

You spent all that money and time to create breathtakingly fluid animations for the defenders, but then due the to turn based mechanics they're forced to just stand there looking silly while the ball carrier runs past them into the endzone.

So yeah, there is an something of a conflict there, as the fancy graphics cause you to expect a cinematic, real feeling experience, and the turn based mechanics force the players to act in a completely unreal manner, so it feels "wrong" or silly.

With simpler graphics, you're likely to expect and accept a much greater level of abstraction in the visual presentation, so it doesn't look odd at all to move your piece right past the opponent's pieces, if he left a gap for you.

I mostly agree with this, but it's still possible to create graphics suited for a game like that in 3D too, it just depends on the level of stylization, how the animations are handled etc. - the goal should be for the character models to feel more like like miniatures or action figures instead of actual beings, in order to achieve similar levels of abstraction of the visuals and the gameplay mechanics.

But yeah, the way it's mostly done doesn't work as well as it should.

 

[spekkio]

How can you enjoy games with shitty/immature/childish art style. Can't you see how shitty it is?

I'm with CK, the Admiral and MissBee on this one.
The only thing that turns me off in games is shitty gameplay. I don't mind if the art style is:

a) oldgen western immature:

b) nextgen western immature:

c) oldgen animu immature:

d) nextgen animu immature:

I mean... what's 'mature art style' when it comes to GAMES...?

Some (not all, Lonely Vazdru and other posters in this thread sound reasonable) animu-hating Codexers give a strong vibe of Suite-Lyricism:

I play only deep, mature, challenging (western) games like Torment, Wiz7, Elite, Star Control, Dues Ex etc. etc.

OK, good for you...

... And that makes me a mature person with better taste than people playing some weaboo games with immature art style.

No. You're still a basement-dwelling moron who thinks that reading Dostoyevsky, listening to Mozart (and enjoying Michelangelo ) somehow makes you a better person than the rest of the plebs.
Sometimes it's also the old "I won't touch the Beatles, because millions enjoy their music, so it's inevitably shit" argument...



But as I wrote, not all animu-haters are like that, mind you.

As you probably noticed, I haven't posted anything "western and mature".
Can some people who despise animu post their examples of good art style in games (can be oldgen but also next-gen)? Good gameplay would be a plus.
I want to be illuminated.

Oh, and about gameplay - the only games with good gameplay from the screenshots I posted are Tales of Phantasia and Pong (AFAIK, I haven't played neither Dragon Age nor FF13).

 

[torpid]

How can you enjoy games with shitty/immature/childish art style. Can't you see how shitty it is?

I'm with CK, the Admiral and MissBee on this one.

Wait, is Crooked Bee female? All this time I thought he/she was a guy, but now I'm seeing more and more references to him/her being a woman.

RPGCodex, the gender-confused forum :dizzy:

 

[Black Cat]

Can some people who despise animu post their examples of good art style in games (can be oldgen but also next-gen)? Good gameplay would be a plus.

I'll bite, because I hate animu and all things weaboo and it is time someone frees Codexia of your taint.



Cosmology of Kyoto is very unique and atmospheric...

http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/cosmology-of-kyoto/screenshots

Same with The Dark Eye...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfPJF3ksJic
http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/dark-eye/screenshots/gameShotId,29914/

... And The Teh Void...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ-FvuzPrgk

... and my new favorite(st) game ever, Hungry Ghosts Ghosties!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C0LY_amW4I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BWuXHZ_Y9s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O5Zsy7pwbg

Then we have, uhm, Pathologic...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XLq_5rOeow

... and, since we are at it, The Path, though a game I wouldn't dare to call it, and it is really pretentious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EhF1T5lQ2Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjmSQxE38FI

What else? Azrael's Tear, maybe. The designs don't come through as much as they would with a less clunky engine, but the fact remains it is one of the most immersive games ever made and the style has much to do with it. And both Rainblood and the, still being made I believe, sequel. And the still to be finished Journey. Maybe Of Light and Darkness, too? I did play that one a long time ago, so I don't really remember and maybe I'm mixing it up with something else. There are more if you keep going artsy fartsy, but i'm kind of tired so I'll stop now.

Kuroneko is turning into a game as experiences retard.



Edit:

Oh, yeah, I almost forgot this one.



Moar edit:

And, yes, totally, this one, the entire reason I'm buying my own PS3 instead of just keep playing on my best friends' ones.

 

[Excommunicator]

You will have to do better than that, spekkio.

And you don't need to sound so threatened and insecure about someone thinking their tastes are better than yours.

I'm not going to get into an argument of who is better, but I reserve the right to reject any game that has a style I don't like. That style will have an effect on my enjoyment of the game in a holistic way, and that style is typically separate from the technical graphical quality. Does that matter to the purposes of this discussion? Not really.

Arguments like "I only care about the gameplay, not the art style" are just the same as "I only like games that have [good gameplay, and] a mature art style". Don't kid yourself into thinking your stance is any different. At least the "animu-haters" are owning their self-superior attitudes.


Here are some quick, non-exhaustive mentions on this topic:

+ The Dawn of War games for me have a very high quality art style (despite Warhammer being caricatured in certain ways) and I really enjoyed the gameplay as well. Admittedly, they were able to take this style from an already very well developed universe.

+ Icewind Dale 1 & 2 have probably the best art style for the character portraits that I have seen in any game. The pre-rendered IE worlds are also very good in many places, but not at the same level IMO.

+ Ravenloft 1 & 2 both have mature, high quality art styles of their own ( although very different artistic "themes" between them), and this artistic maturity fits perfectly with the tone and atmosphere of each game.

+ I am quite the fan of the Disciples 2 visual style, even though it suffers partly in the way it comes across due to lower resolutions and such. Despite that, the portraits, intro movies, menus etc are all well done, with the creature and hero portraits some of my favourites.

The above games can be seen as "mature" in artistic style, and I enjoyed the gameplay of each as well.


I enjoyed the style of many non-mature games as well, but I haven't enjoyed myself any anime game yet (although I have enjoyed certain anime animations), partly because I haven't played any, and partly because I have no interest in extracting the gameplay from a game that appears unappealing to begin with.

Just to be clear, I am one who likes mature style in his games, I do believe anime is most of the time inherently inferior to more mature styles, and I made that known when we brought Rance onto the Codex. For the purposes of this discussion spekkio, I am your enemy.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

As you probably noticed, I haven't posted anything "western and mature".
Can some people who despise animu post their examples of good art style in games (can be oldgen but also next-gen)? Good gameplay would be a plus.

Mature is a bit strong a word for what, in the end, is still a game, plus it's highly subjective, but I'll show you some stuff I enjoyed.

Meeting the frost giants in Icewind Dale is an awesome memory :

Same with the fire ones.

Not to mention the beautiful portraits :

As far as paper doll/character sheet/inventory go I'm partial to the M&M 6/7/8 style :

also Thunderscape :

Now, for something completely different... I enjoyed the comic book style of both

Shadow Watch :

and Freedom Force :

But the one game that has it all (excellent turn based gameplay included) is by far Age of Wonders 2 (or Age of Wonders Shadow Magic, same engine and UI). Nice overland maps :

Nice tactical maps :

and even nice hero screens :

 

[spekkio]

I am your enemy.

No, you're not.

I haven't enjoyed myself any anime game yet, partly because I haven't played any, and partly because I have no interest in extracting the gameplay from a game that appears unappealing to begin with.

I do believe anime is most of the time inherently inferior to more mature styles.

Thanks for the list. Now could you post some japanese games which art-style you enjoyed? Because ATM your list is a little bit PC & western - centric... You played some japanese games with an art style you found good, did you?

Cosmology of Kyoto, Dark Eye, The Void, Pathologic

Get this artsy shit outta mah Codex, woman!



Plus you mentioned some japanese games in your post, and since everything made in japan is animu, and:

I do believe anime is most of the time inherently inferior to more mature styles.

Your list is invalid.

@ LV: same problem as with Ex - have you played any japanese games?

Plus most of the sceens you posted (IWD, AoW2) look like general PC cRPG/Strategy Game from the 90-ties to me. Sure, graphics in IwD2 are better than in BG1, but... Ax example of great art style...



I have shitty taste probably...

For now, BC wins this thread by listing both western and japanese games (this way I'm sure that she at least played some).

 

[sgc_meltdown]

icewind dale

I have always found it fairly strange that IWD somehow had a better resolution on their prerendered creature sprites in it than BG2.

IIRC there are even a few overlaps in creature types in the two games and IWD had the ones with very different and better models.

Maybe it's a 'there's less reading so we should make this look good' thing.

 

[Black Cat]

How comes no one mentioned bloody Sacrifice yet?



I'm surrounded by noobs, that's it!

@ Mirror-Kun

There's two chinese ones in there, too. And a chilean one. *multicultural neko, nya*

And I actually did play them all, my dark secret is that while being, you know, hardcore gamer neko and the like I actually play and love a lot of surrealist and artsy fartsy games, being a The Dreaming GM and all. I even played a couple of hours of Folksoul when I was on my best friend's house and she went, like, I'm going to show you a game that's going to make you buy your own PS3 and stop stealing my own. And she actually did, I love that game so much.

@ Ronery V

I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, but Icewind Dale's art style isn't, like, standard fantasy fare, only better drawn? When I see the screens it's more of wow, they are pretty instead of wow, the uniqueness of the art style is blowing me away. The same goes for Shadow Magic. I mean, I love AoW and stuffies, but the art is just very well executed standard fantasy fare.

@ Excommunicator

I would never dare say a game has a mature art style, or that there's actually a diference between mature art styles or immature ones, but since you actually do... And then mention Warhammer... No, sorry. Your credibility went down to zero, and then came out from the other side.

Also, and you know I, like, love the Ravenloft games, but saying they are mature, be it on art style or anything else, is kind of a stretch, don't you think?

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

@ LV: same problem as with Ex - have you played any japanese games?

No. I don't fancy anime styled games and I hate consoles. End of story.

Plus most of the sceens you posted (IWD, AoW2) look like general PC cRPG/Strategy Game from the 90-ties to me. Sure, graphics in IwD2 are better than in BG1, but... Ax example of great art style...

I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, but Icewind Dale's art style isn't, like, standard fantasy fare, only better drawn? When I see the screens it's more of wow, they are pretty instead of wow, the uniqueness of the art style is blowing me away. The same goes for Shadow Magic. I mean, I love AoW and stuffies, but the art is just very well executed standard fantasy fare.

I never claimed to post the next shit that's gonna blow generic fantasy away. Just generic fantasy done right, which, as old and BSB as it may have become (even for me) still kicks anime ass anytime as far as I'm concerned. Plus I'm a sucker for 2D so I stopped caring sometime in the late nineties.
IE games are where I peaked and ID is the one with the most beautiful/immersive/well executed art among them. I could add ToEE to the list though.

Finally, after playing AoW for hundreds and hundreds of hours I still dig managing 'em lil' fantasy unit sprites, so I guess that counts for something. Who knows, you might find magic vegetables and saucer-plated eyed heroes a wee bit annoying after such a long time...

 

[mondblut]

I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, but Icewind Dale's art style isn't, like, standard fantasy fare, only better drawn? When I see the screens it's more of wow, they are pretty instead of wow, the uniqueness of the art style is blowing me away. The same goes for Shadow Magic. I mean, I love AoW and stuffies, but the art is just very well executed standard fantasy fare.

What's wrong with standart fantasy fare? Should they instead prominently feature 500-pound pauldrons with long rusty barbed hooks with puppies impaled, dresses made of chain and machinery and multiheaded dicks for noses?

Whoops, that would make it an anime game

 

[Excommunicator]

@ LV: same problem as with Ex - have you played any japanese games?

No. I don't fancy anime styled games and I hate consoles. End of story.

This.


My credibility is not defined by bleeding crotches like yourself, Black Cat.

If it was anyone else, I would probably respond to your comments. Unfortunately I know exactly who you are from your other posts and topics here, and there is good reason why I try my best not to speak to you directly.

You can work that out for yourself.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

multiheaded dicks for noses?

Well...

 

[Admiral jimbob]

Should they instead prominently feature 500-pound pauldrons with long rusty barbed hooks with puppies impaled, dresses made of chain and machinery

Sounds like Warhammer alright.

 

[Black Cat]

@ Mondblut

That sounds more like western grimdark, to be honest.

@ Excommunicator

Of course not. Your credibility is defined by believing warhammer to be even slightly mature.

@ Ronery V

Not all japanese games are anime.

 

[mondblut]

Hey, japs aren't known for their inventiveness, only for their ability to turn absolutely anything into 8 years old-friendly. Lovecraftian horrors included.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Not all japanese games are anime.

Don't make my world more complex than it already is. I also hate being wrong.

 

[mondblut]

That sounds more like western grimdark, to be honest.

Oops, I forgot about androgynous 12 year olds for carriers and color scheme of a rainbow

Screw impaledness too, puppies just sit on their shoulders and are very cute and kawaii

 

[spekkio]

@ LV: same problem as with Ex - have you played any japanese games?

This.

No. I don't fancy anime styled games and I hate consoles. End of story.

"Anime styled games"? Let me help you.
You mean stuff like this:

Or this:

Or this:

?



The problem with this whole "western or japanese games - which is better and why" discussion is that we compare art style and gameplay.

While we can criticize the art style of any game without actually playing it (by simply posting screenshots / videos), it's quite impossible with the gameplay.
So people who play both western and japanese games can comment on both art style and gameplay of these games.
But people who don't play japanese games at all ('cuz' their art style suxx, I know because I saw Andyman my cousin playing FF7') don't have a clue if these games are any good, because they haven't played any.

That's why I think you're wrong here, Ex:

Arguments like "I only care about the gameplay, not the art style" are just the same as "I only like games that have [good gameplay, and] a mature art style". Don't kid yourself into thinking your stance is any different.

Still, whatever rocks your boat...

 

[Excommunicator]

I think Black Cat thinks she is putting up some variety of valid and successful rebuttals to the things being said.

Who wants to break the news to her?

@ spekkio

None of that appeals to me. Why do you try to point out the distinction? I don't see the relevance.

Explain to me the connection between your quote and your little piece about people not having experience with Japanese games being unable to judge them, because I don't think my quote even made any reference to playing experience.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

So people who play both western and japanese games can comment on both art style and gameplay of these games.

Sure but people who can go from this :

to this :

...without flinching, are to me so alien and far from having what I'd call a real opinion on anything that I can't really trust their comments. For art and setting that is, gameplay comments are totally valid for me. That's why I checked both games mentioned earlier in the thread, because I'm sure the gameplay would appeal to me. But damn... I was surprised to see Etrian Odyssey's sort of kiddies crap here. Just like I was surprised to find a real honest to God "Power Rangers" thread in the Codex Library.

 

[spekkio]

I think Black Cat thinks she is putting up some variety of valid and successful rebuttals to the things being said.

Who wants to break the news to her?

Go ahead, nobody is stopping you.

None of that appeals to me.

The important thing is, are all of them animu?

I don't think my quote even made any reference to playing experience.

I think it did...

 

[Black Cat]

@ Excommunicator

I'm not rebutting anyone, i'm just pointing at facts:

1. That there's nothing mature about Warhammer's art style, nor about the Ravenloft games or setting.

2. That not all japanese games are anime. Examples would be Hungry Ghosts, King's Field, The Calling, Dark Spire, and a quite long etc.

Now, you are free to stop hiding behind i'm not talking to you and the like, and break the news to me all you want. You can, for example, show to me how all those completely not anime games I can mention are actually anime because they were made in Japan. You can also show me how Warhammer and Ravenloft are settings of truly mature depth and art styles. Given it is so obvious that anyone here can tell me, you can obviously just put some links up and solve the problem.

But you will not, because you are not only an ignorant jerk that doesn't know shit about what he's talking about but a little cowardly faggot, too, that needs to look for popular moral support when trying to argue with me. How old are you, twelve?

@ Mondblut

Now we are talking in the same language, yes.

 

[Excommunicator]

None of that appeals to me.

The important thing is, are all of them animu?

You want me to get in a technical discussion on the term anime/animu?

The thing is it isn't important to me. I'm not reacting with "that looks like anime, therefore I don't like it". I make an intuitive artistic judgement on the visuals as to whether or not I like them, but that is it. It won't prevent me from playing the game if I decide I don't like the visuals (although it can be discouraging), and it won't make me automatically want to play it if I do like it (although it can be encouraging). I need more information to decide whether I want to play a game, otherwise I would rather move on to find something that has more going for it.

I don't think my quote even made any reference to playing experience.

I think it did... [/quote]

I mentioned gameplay in both contrasting examples, therefore it stands to reason that it isn't being compared in the examples.

What that comparison was illustrating was how your "it is all about the gameplay to me" was just as self-righteous as the attitude towards both gameplay and artistic style in a collective assessment. You might be appealing to traditional sensibilities when you call someone out who has a haughty attitude when it comes to art in games, but the real substance is the same in both stances, yours merely has that advantage of seeming less conceited.

 

[KalosKagathos]

Moar edit:

And, yes, totally, this one, the entire reason I'm buying my own PS3 instead of just keep playing on my best friends' ones.

Holy crap, I'm not the only person in the world who bought Folklore? I really liked how flexible the controls were, allowing you to freely map fairies to the face buttons, and all that. Now, if only the game put up a challenge, had more variety between the playable characters' fighting styles and especially their chapters, and had a less terrible translation (or script, I dunno which it is). Whatever, I only paid 20$ for it. The art direction and the soundtrack (Yama's battle theme rocked) were worth the price.