Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Review Choose Your Own Fallout 3

BLOBERT

FUCKING SLAYINGN IT BROS
Patron
Joined
Jun 12, 2007
Messages
4,286
Location
BRO
Codex 2012
Alex said:
This suggests that, rather than being immersed in the game, playing as a character that makes decisions as he uncovers things about the world, she wanted to play as a co author, able to take elements as she finds in the game and use them to create the story. Fallout 3 isn't a game that supports this, and I think the closest of doing something like this was Planescape: Torment.

BRO BUT BETHFAGSDA WANTS IT BOTH WAYS A FREE OPEN WORLD AND A STORY WITH LIAM NEESON I THINK THE WHOLE DESIGAN WAS KINDA FUCKED THAT WAY AND AZREAL SAID IT BETTER THAN I COULD EITHER GO WITH THE OPEN WORLD OR STORY MIXING TOO MUCH JUST MAKES A RETARTED MESS
 

denizsi

Arcane
Joined
Nov 24, 2005
Messages
9,927
Location
bosphorus
Stop giving her undeserved credit. She's plain straightly asking to meta game knowing everything in advance so she can make only the right social/material choices. Boring.

ps: do you like my post better this time? I didn't use politically incorrect language for you softies.
 
Self-Ejected

Davaris

Self-Ejected
Developer
Joined
Mar 7, 2005
Messages
6,547
Location
Idiocracy
denizsi said:
I also loved her rant on gender. Damned if you conform to feminazi bitches, damned if you don't. "The NPC didn't acknowledge that I have tits and a vagina!"

Emily Short said:
It doesn't have to be that way -- and making it different doesn't have to mean setting all stories in a perfectly egalitarian society, either.

Emily Short said:
One of my favorite examples of player-selected gender is in the interactive fiction Bolivia By Night, in which the player's choice of gender (and also of nationality, interestingly) affects the attitudes of the non-player characters. Sometimes being a girl makes the other characters treat you in sexist, unpleasant ways.

denizsi said:
So, why is this a news item? Will we be getting every random multikult liberaltard's PC subhuman "opinions" on RPGs?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Short
 

Alex

Arcane
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
9,221
Location
São Paulo - Brasil
BLOBERT said:
Alex said:
This suggests that, rather than being immersed in the game, playing as a character that makes decisions as he uncovers things about the world, she wanted to play as a co author, able to take elements as she finds in the game and use them to create the story. Fallout 3 isn't a game that supports this, and I think the closest of doing something like this was Planescape: Torment.

BRO BUT BETHFAGSDA WANTS IT BOTH WAYS A FREE OPEN WORLD AND A STORY WITH LIAM NEESON I THINK THE WHOLE DESIGAN WAS KINDA FUCKED THAT WAY AND AZREAL SAID IT BETTER THAN I COULD EITHER GO WITH THE OPEN WORLD OR STORY MIXING TOO MUCH JUST MAKES A RETARTED MESS

I don't think this is just a question of being sandbox against being story oriented. I don't disagree with anything Azrael posted, but I don't think that changing F3 to either type of game would have solved Emily's complaints about the game. In either types of games, a player might come across some event, piece of lore or even just a character that makes him think the game would have been better if he had chosen differently.

denizsi said:
Stop giving her undeserved credit. She's plain straightly asking to meta game knowing everything in advance so she can make only the right social/material choices. Boring.

ps: do you like my post better this time? I didn't use politically incorrect language for you softies.

But that is the thing. Metagaming, in normal crpgs, is a bad thing. You are basically taking away the fun from yourself. But I think it might be interesting to discuss how could we make games that had some amount of metagaming in them, that required the player to know or set things about the story beforehand, but used this to make the game better instead of worse.

For example, imagine a game that responded really well for all your choices. Now imagine that it would let you create your character by, among other things, set something about the story. For example, maybe you could set an option that made your character a "labor of love", in other words, there would be a npc that sacrificed a lot for your character.

So, as you set that option in character creation, the game will change the story somewhat to include a storyline about that. More to the point, the story would react to a myriad of choices you can make during the game. The idea being that, as the player knows about something that is coming up, he will make choices to influence it. However, he still would be surprised by how it is played out.

I think that it might be interesting to see how, if at all, we could make that work.
 

Chefe

Erudite
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
4,731
I would have to say this woman is a meta-gamer. She seems like the kind of person who continually restarts games just to choose the "right" response, and would probably have an aneurysm if ever confronted with BG2.

I found it odd that she applauded the "environmental storytelling" while drawing the biggest criticisms from it (i.e. 200 year old edible food). In fact, one of the biggest problems from Fallout 2's wasteland was the fact that much of the environment just plain did not make sense. I also found it odd that she felt to point out that apocalyptic scenarios lead to a unique situation where most of the present is about the past. This is actually true of every single thing that has existed and will ever exist. Nothing builds on nothing. Environmental storytelling works for every game except obscure platformers and puzzle games, so either she doesn't really know what she's talking about or poorly communicated a much narrower definition of "environmental storytelling". The radio stations certainly weren't environmental storytelling. They were there for the most ancient of gameplay mechanics - to show the player his or her progress.

I certainly did not feel that the game featured player controlled exposition either. The main quest was incredibly linear; told in very certain, concrete steps. The side quests were completely arbitrary and most had no relation at all to anything the main story was about. It would be like reading Moby Dick and putting it down every other chapter to read a few pages out of Pride and Prejudice.

As I mentioned above, and as Alex mentioned earlier, it seems our dear Emily wants to be co-author. If she wants to radically alter her character based on a late development, then why does she even bother playing before then? I'm having trouble wrapping my head around what she's saying. She praises the game for allowing you to gradually create your story, but then when that story becomes backstory (by the sheer virtue of you doing it in the past), she wants the option to radically change it. She must have really enjoyed KOTOR's "choose your own ending!" scenario where, despite you decisions throughout the entire game, you still had the choice to either save the galaxy and kill the sith or kill half your party and enslave the galaxy under the sith. Furthermore, if she's so upset that every character she ends up playing is the same (which is even more odd since she starts out saying that she consciously picks a certain type of character, but whatever), then mix it up. Emily needs to realize that most games tend to lean towards the light side of the force (why do I have starwars on my mind? hmm...), and if she really wants to have her big lolironic moment, then she should get out there and start kicking those dogs right out of the tutorial gate.

The tutorial gate, by the way, is meant to offset complaints like "I picked all these characteristics but I don't know what they do and I don't have the time to start a new character because the new Halo/GOW/COD/bullshitshootergame just came out". I have a hard time seeing how anyone could find that FO3 had you choose a lot of things at the outset, whether she sees the end of the tutorial or the SPECIAL book as being the "outset". You live in a vault, you choose some stats, and you're off. Having your dad run off to save the world is supposed to be the big reveal. Throughout the game, why he left is the :mystery:. If she's talking purely about the stats, then start a new character if the lengthy tutorial wasn't long enough for you to try stuff out. Not that it really matters, because the flexibility and outright brokenness (is it flexible because it is broken? :philosoraptor:) of Bethesda's game systems means that stats aren't really worth a damn at all. Most of the "choices" you make throughout the game are pretty much pointless anyways.

She certainly read too much into the gender issue. The game was targeted towards boys and knew that anyone who wanted to get-off to the game would make a beeline towards the 'nexus, not to mention that they're a lazy batch of fuckers (or it could have been development time, but this is the Codex and I'm Chefe so RAAWWWRRR BETHESDA BAD!), so we get a tacked on vagina.

@ Denizsi
What the fuck are you talking about? She was upset that the game didn't acknowledge the gender, and expressed a little distaste about how Heavy Rain presented gender with the only female character (meaning there wasn't another female character to take a different perspective, and if you've ever seen some of the videos of that game, it's the stuff of pure adolescent boy's dreams). It wasn't anything about political correctness. Fuck, she even says that she enjoyed another game where gender is taken into account, and in that game some people are sexist towards your character. The choice of gender would present *gasp* C&C!



tl;dr fuck off lazy bitches
 

Emily Short

Novice
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
3
Hi! I'm finding this discussion interesting, so I hope you don't mind my clarifying a couple of things that it looks like I didn't say clearly enough in the original article.

Re. gender, I would actually have found it very interesting (if perhaps unmarketably grim) to have the game portray a woman's life in the Wasteland as a lot harder than a man's. For that matter, I've played and liked a lot of games where there was no option for a female avatar at all. What did bother me was the sense that the game designers hadn't really *thought* about what a woman's existence in this world would be like except as an after-effect with some very minor and unpersuasive modifications to the default: the world as seen by a heterosexual man. This caused a number of fictional moments that rang false to me and jarred me out of the game -- and unlike the cases where I was jarred out of the game by, oh, a bottle of beer that somehow was still good 200 years after bottling, I couldn't see a good game design justification for things to be that way.

I certainly did not feel that the game featured player controlled exposition either. The main quest was incredibly linear; told in very certain, concrete steps. The side quests were completely arbitrary and most had no relation at all to anything the main story was about. It would be like reading Moby Dick and putting it down every other chapter to read a few pages out of Pride and Prejudice.

Nnnnno, because the intersticial stuff still had a bearing on the broader story of what was going on in the world, and gave additional color to your choices.

What impressed me was the successful interleaving of Main Quest and sandbox/side-quest elements: when you get to Megaton and the game basically says, "okay, now you have to go do some side stuff; come back when you have some money to buy your next plot coupon", that structure -- though obvious -- did work for me. I felt like I knew what to do next in general, I wasn't lost and undirected, but the invitation to make it on my own in the world was an effective piece of the fictional arc. Fable 2 tried to do something similar, I think, but it didn't work for me nearly as well; the "important" and "unimportant" parts felt much more unlike in nature.

I would have to say this woman is a meta-gamer. She seems like the kind of person who continually restarts games just to choose the "right" response

Nah. I rarely restart anything unless it's a very short, broad game and I've already finished the game once, and I tend to resist the urge to check out wikis and other cheats for guidance unless I run into something that feels like a bug. (I did, at one point, have some serious trouble progressing the Little Lamplighters mission, and had to resort to a wiki to find the continuation of the main storyline. But for the most part I try to steer clear of that kind of spoiler.)

What I do find is that character creation -- even if I have a pretty good idea of the effects of my skill point distribution -- is not a very good way to generate a protagonist that I find interesting in story terms.

Furthermore, if she's so upset that every character she ends up playing is the same (which is even more odd since she starts out saying that she consciously picks a certain type of character, but whatever), then mix it up.

"So upset" overstates matters quite a lot, but: I choose stealthy rogues who use ranged weapons because that specifies the kind of *gameplay* I enjoy -- I'd rather sneak around and snipe enemies from a distance than run right up and hit them with a melee weapon. If I pick a melee set-up I usually spend the game dying a lot, and when I'm not dying, I'm still not having as much fun.

But there's very little narrative content to that choice at all, and it doesn't contribute to much sense of the protagonist as a character.

Similarly, usually the early choices about whether to act good or bad are sufficiently generic and uncontextualized that they're not really interesting from a storytelling perspective. By default, I'll choose to be nice, if I'm not given any kind of motivation to be otherwise.

By contrast, I felt like getting rolling in Mass Effect took too long, and I didn't really need to spend *that* long customizing the shape of my protagonist's lips -- but because I was invited to pick some backstory elements for my protagonist alongside the other choices, I was forced to start imagining some kind of specific and characterized person, and then I found myself making other choices for her around this idea that I had. It was like being given an improv prompt or two and then fleshing that person out. There were still a lot of issues I had with the intro there, but overall I felt I wound up with someone a good bit less generic.

As I mentioned above, and as Alex mentioned earlier, it seems our dear Emily wants to be co-author.

Not necessarily all the time, but sometimes, yes. (I've actually written a couple of other columns on that general idea, http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2008/08/col ... betray.php and http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2008/07/col ... playin.php .)

If you've got a fairly sandboxy game, but you want to let the player have a story experience with it if he wants one, then I think you have to hand over some structural and interpretive tools to the player. Like: letting him pick goals; encouraging him to think about character motivation and background; either signaling moments of crisis that he can choose whether to activate, or letting the player define his *own* moments of crisis on some way. (That's what I really wanted in Fable 2, discussed at http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2009/10/col ... commun.php .)

Alice and Kev (http://aliceandkev.wordpress.com/) is an example of this in action. Sims 3's traits come a lot closer than conventional RPG stats to expressing characters; add to that the ability to pick life goals and an ability to change them at certain points if you gain enough XP, and you have a kind of rudimentary story-arc kit for the player to do things with -- if he wants to. It's not forced on anyone who isn't into that aspect.

On the other hand, the kinds of crises and experiences that are possible in Sims 3 are still centered on a very mundane consumerist model, so it's hard to have stories about challenges other than poverty.

So what I usually imagine when I'm blue-skying about playing co-author is something between Fallout 3 and Sims 3 on the sandbox continuum, but with events that can function as motivating prompts to the player.

That would be not so much "press this button if you'd like a romantic crisis to occur soon", but "here's a world with its own built-in rules, and you can make up goals and wishes for your character, then see how they play out in this universe; you get to push that character towards big crises and successes and changes of motivation".

Meanwhile, the game's rules do contain a procedural rhetoric that has its own message -- like "life in the Wasteland is unfair, and when you try to interfere in the unfairness, you very often just make things worse". The particular *way* in which the character experienced that theme, the goals he tried to pursue, the motivations he brought to it, whether he decided to give up at some point or to keep fighting the bad odds, or somehow managed in fact to overcome them despite everything -- those aspects of the story would be up to the individual player.

But I'd be pretty interested in the "push this button for a romantic crisis" game too, honestly.
 
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,876,730
Location
Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
the world as seen by a heterosexual man. This caused a number of fictional moments that rang false to me and jarred me out of the game -- and unlike the cases where I was jarred out of the game by, oh, a bottle of beer that somehow was still good 200 years after bottling, I couldn't see a good game design justification for things to be that way.

Could you give some examples? I imagine an interesting one for a female player would be Jenny and Jericho after he tried to rape her. He strikes up a conversation with her when he's eating at her counter. He's the reason she carries a gun with her at all times, despite never leaving town. The game doesn't let you do anything about it, not even blackmail Jericho, so the matter is pretty much settled.
 

Emily Short

Novice
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
3
Could you give some examples? I imagine an interesting one for a female player would be Jenny and Jericho after he tried to rape her.

I didn't run into that. I did have a very similar reaction to the early vault scenes as are described here:

http://www.infinitelives.net/2010/01/16 ... is-a-girl/

(and no, I hadn't read that article before playing). Later, my interactions with a prostitute in Megaton just felt completely broken, as she flirted with me and offered to sell me some time, then got into a bed where some man was sleeping already, so there was no room for me: probably a bug, but at the time I couldn't work out whether the game just didn't have a way to react if a female character hired a hooker.

From there on out it was mostly odd dialogue situations. Dukov's girls being flirtatious at me, much more than Dukov himself. Male characters addressing me in a kind of macho man-to-man way sometimes (though this in specific jarred less and less as the game went on and my character evolved into a serious badass).

You could make up an explanation for this: most wasteland women are lesbians, the wasteland has (somehow, counter to common sense) brought an age of greater gender equality, something like that. But none of these explanations really fits the rest of the fiction as shown.
 

racofer

Thread Incliner
Joined
Apr 5, 2008
Messages
25,857
Location
Your ignore list.
So fucking what? The game is hogwash in every sense. Starting from the bottom to the top in a pyramid-like analysis of its fucks ups:

  • The base: It runs on a fucking piece of shit engine, the same one that "powers" (lawz!) Oblolivian where everything is weightless despite Bethfags hyping the fuck out of HAVOX PHSYX!!!1!1:
    Bethestardo #60987423234 said:
    DUDE1!!!!!!!!!! OMG I LAWVE BETHESDFOIA DEY MAEK GAEMS I CAN MOVE STUFF ARROUND ND HAEV NPIECES DANCE WIHT A SPEAWL!1 OOOOOOOOMMMMMGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • Platform of Choice: Teh XBAWK1! Who the fucking fuck would've made the pipboy the way to interact with your character stats and stuff if they made this game for the PC? NOBODY! Even Bioware acknowledge: different platforms, different interfaces. And they've shown this on both of their massively consolified games: ME and DA:O. What does bethardo do for PCs? They code in MAWSE SUPPORT OMG MOST CARING DEVELOPERS EVARH1!
  • Everything else: Everything else about this turd is well, turdified. Characters without characters, plot without basis, fedex quests ahoy! Endless grinding for itamz n ammo n GEARZ! FUCK THIS! The game is completely unpleasant to play without 2^flaws amount of mods.

The worst of it all though is that years later we still have people talking about this shit, just because Obsitard is about to, as we have all read in their news/blog posts, gonna fuck up yet another game(just this time they're gonna manage the impossible: fucking up a royally fucked up game) BECAUSE EVEIL DEVELOPTARD IS PUSHIN US TOOO HARD! GAWD WE CANT TAEK THE HEAT BANKRUPT US ALREADY FFFFS!

Fuck this shit I'm hungry. Good day.
 
In My Safe Space
Joined
Dec 11, 2009
Messages
21,899
Codex 2012
Emily Short said:
Hi! I'm finding this discussion interesting, so I hope you don't mind my clarifying a couple of things that it looks like I didn't say clearly enough in the original article.

Re. gender, I would actually have found it very interesting (if perhaps unmarketably grim) to have the game portray a woman's life in the Wasteland as a lot harder than a man's. For that matter, I've played and liked a lot of games where there was no option for a female avatar at all. What did bother me was the sense that the game designers hadn't really *thought* about what a woman's existence in this world would be like except as an after-effect with some very minor and unpersuasive modifications to the default: the world as seen by a heterosexual man.
It's because most of cRPGs are in reality barely disguised shitty tactical wargames/shooters.
BTW. Does Fallout 3 feature realistic races? If I'll play a person with a black skin, would the game treat him as a nigger? Or is it written from a white heterosexual man's perspective?

Emily Short said:
Mass Effect (...) Fable 2 (...) Fallout 3 (...) Sims 3
:|
 

racofer

Thread Incliner
Joined
Apr 5, 2008
Messages
25,857
Location
Your ignore list.
It's written from a person's perspective: caucasian, male, heterosexual, >=18cm long, high mid to upper class.

Everything else are discriminated minorities.
 

Emily Short

Novice
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
3
The race thing is something I thought of touching on, but my post was already getting pretty intolerably long. But what I was going to say was: my character was a black woman, and as far as I can tell her blackness had no effect whatever on my play experience.

On the other hand, in the context of the game fiction, I felt like that *did* make sense: racism tends to be much more about cultural and economic divisions and social history than it is about skin tone or facial structure. In the Wasteland, the divisions between people had shifted to be not about skin tone and to be about other things. (The whole Tenpenny Tower situation and the treatment of ghouls functions as the in-fiction version of racism.)
 
In My Safe Space
Joined
Dec 11, 2009
Messages
21,899
Codex 2012
Emily Short said:
The race thing is something I thought of touching on, but my post was already getting pretty intolerably long. But what I was going to say was: my character was a black woman, and as far as I can tell her blackness had no effect whatever on my play experience.

On the other hand, in the context of the game fiction, I felt like that *did* make sense: racism tends to be much more about cultural and economic divisions and social history than it is about skin tone or facial structure. In the Wasteland, the divisions between people had shifted to be not about skin tone and to be about other things. (The whole Tenpenny Tower situation and the treatment of ghouls functions as the in-fiction version of racism.)
Well, Fallout bible says that racism and sexism is alive and well in the Fallout setting. Maybe they just didn't have guts to include it. Or at least one developer thinks that it still exist but didn't have guts to include it.
 

madbringer

Arcane
Joined
Apr 22, 2010
Messages
1,885
Location
the vast
Take notes, folks.

Having your NPCs swear randomly and out of context = good.
Making almost every woman in the game seem like a possible lesbian = good.
Making children die from a direct nuclear blast to their scrotum = bad.
Having racist or sexist remarks in a world that's a leftover from a nuclear war = bad.

And no, i don't think the game reacts to your race *at all*. I played as an asian female and not only the NPCs didn't acknowledge that fact in any way, my character was constantly reminded she looks just like her father, a white caucasian male. :shock:
 

racofer

Thread Incliner
Joined
Apr 5, 2008
Messages
25,857
Location
Your ignore list.
Stop trying to nitpick the game's faults and enjoy it for what it is. You should be thankful to have a developer dedicate its time to producing games, you know?
 

madbringer

Arcane
Joined
Apr 22, 2010
Messages
1,885
Location
the vast
Man, you're right. Todd and the gang put up such an awesome effort, and here we are, complaining about bad implementation of different human race archetypes when it's quite obvious that every single one except white ain't worth the time and effort to emulate.

Now i feel bad. Hell, they even made that extra step to make black NPCs sound like white men trying really hard to talk like black men, so kudos to those old cheerful chaps!
 

The Todd

Novice
Joined
Apr 29, 2010
Messages
4
madbringer said:
Todd and the gang put up such an awesome effort

toddhead.png

Thanks, bro!
 

The Wizard

Educated
Joined
Apr 1, 2009
Messages
606
Location
Germany
emily whatever said:
Re. gender, I would actually have found it very interesting (if perhaps unmarketably grim) to have the game portray a woman's life in the Wasteland as a lot harder than a man's.
i so wanna hear the arguments for that.

:avatard:
 

Tails

Arbiter
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
1,674
Donkey Rhubarb
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom