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Incline Chris Avellone Appreciation Station

Roguey

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Chris reveals that Todd was a bro: https://twitter.com/ChrisAvellone/status/1511161022333083652

No, if they had an issue with something, they would have asked us to remove it. We did have to change ED-E's backstory character from "Dr. Howard," however, as people at Bethesda (not Todd), thought it was a reference to Todd. So we did.

Later on, Todd came back with (paraphrased) "check with me first, since a lot of folks around here say I said something/approve/disapprove of something, when I didn't." He was chill about it. It was a harmless change, though, so no big deal (no Dr. Howard).

Also reveals that the Polacy at Techland couldn't wrap their heads around nonlinear narratives even when shown specific examples: https://twitter.com/ChrisAvellone/status/1511194986603159554

Nothing from me is in the game, and I'm sorry the reactivity was a letdown.

Choices and consequences were one of the main reasons I was brought on board, but it was hard to communicate non-linear plots to the devs, even when you showed them examples. :(

And also gets a bit too dangerously based when he expresses his approval of a fictional relationship between a 19 year old man and a 14 year old girl (this is why they were split up, the editor-in-chief got nervous and squeamish about it). https://twitter.com/ChrisAvellone/status/1511199081212747778

I will never forgive Secret Wars for breaking up Colossus and Kitty Pryde
 

conan_edw

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Pathfinder: Wrath


https://chrisavellone.medium.com/fallout-apocrypha-77c75954641a

Fallout Apocrypha
Many years before the Great War of 2077, specifically, the late 90s and a few years into the new millennium (2002, in fact), a time when all things regarding Fallout seemed to be going nowhere at Interplay, I worked on a “keep awareness of Fallout high (and also test out the community reaction to ideas)” series of releases called the “Fallout Bible.”

1*3mZzVdEao2Xl8N3OcZ-4jQ.png

The Fallout Bible contained a lot of questions from the community, specifics about Fallout 1 and 2 development and design information, and other things that it seemed the Fallout community (you) would be interested in seeing.

And so is this — a living “Fallout Apocrypha” page. I’ve only recently been introduced to Medium, but this “page” is something where I’ll try to make a repository of all the questions I get asked, factoids, and other fun Fallout-y stuff that may have occurred during Fallout 1, 2, Tactics (which I got to see being developed and had some minor insights on), and New Vegas. It’s a much easier place to search for info than on most social media sights, so there’s that as well.

If you’d like, you can ask questions on Twitter: @chrisavellone or you can ask them in the Comments section. I’ll also likely be re-ordering this page and re-structuring its categories and potential sub-pages depending on if the questions and answers can be easily categorized (ex: “Everything about Stimpaks”).

Ask away!
IS THIS “APOCRYPHA” CANON? IS THE FALLOUT BIBLE?

Neither this or the Fallout Bible are canon, these just compile insights and factoids from development.

If you’re looking for what’s canon and what’s not, then the actual game content from the Bethesda/Bethesda-backed titles (F3, NV, F4, 76) are the sources you should refer to (F1, F2, Tactics are not necessarily canon).

OMFG DID BETHESDA LIKE, TOTALLY, SCREW OBSIDIAN OUT OF A BONUS ON METACRITIC???!!!

Nope.

The “Metacritic bonus” if the game got above an 84 review score was something Bethesda offered above and beyond the New Vegas contract.

We didn’t ask for this, they offered it, and it was our responsibility to hit that review score. We did have to have layoffs at Obsidian around this time period, but the bonus from Metacritic wouldn’t have prevented that from happening.

HOW MANY PEOPLE FROM NEW VEGAS ARE STILL AT OBSIDIAN

As of 4/9/22, about 20-ish, I believe, out of an original team of ~70. The remainder either quit, were laid off, or were fired.

Before that’s a cause for alarm, however, many of these remaining 20 were key people in New Vegas’ development, and Obsidian also has Leonard Boyarsky and Tim Cain on board, even though both are on Outer Worlds (2), and Leonard and Tim are the original creators of Fallout.

I BET YOU HATE BETHESDA FOR WHAT THEY DID TO FALLOUT

Nope.

If anything, they kept it alive, and then added a much deeper layer of open-world exploration than anything we’d been able to do at Interplay.

Also, the marketing department at Bethesda had a much stronger push than anything Interplay could have made happen, and arguably helped Fallout enter the mainstream more than Interplay ever could have done. There’s a reason you’ll see Fallout shirts at Target, and that alone is a pretty big accomplishment (whether you agree that’s an accomplishment or not).

DID YOU PLAY FALLOUT 3

Yes.

UH, WHAT DID YOU THINK ABOUT FALLOUT 3

My critique was:

:: Floodgates open ::

It’s a testament to the game that for every thing that initially bothered me, there was a solution or a tool to counterbalance it. For example, I was exploring Hubris Comics, dropped my Power Fist so I could haul some extra loot, then came back and couldn’t find it on the floor. Pissed. And then I remembered Dogmeat has the dialogue option to go “fetch” existing weapons in the environment and bring them back — so I asked him to go hunt down the Power Fist for me, and he found it in 5 seconds. Awesome. The game had enough options and tools at my disposal to insure I was having fun no matter what the challenges, so I can’t ask for much more.

So here’s the list:

The negatives: Dogmeat’s breathing if you don’t adjust the sound sliders. The tiny model house in Minefield not containing anything special. Anyone armed with a flamer can kick my melee-specialized ass, and thus, can kiss my ass. It was confusing to find one’s way around Megaton, although it had beautiful set pieces and I got used to it. I played with a 4 ST character and regretted it, but it made me appreciate the ST boost from alcohol more (1st time I’ve ever considered alcohol a viable drug in any game system, ever) and also made me appreciate Buffouts. I suck at the Science minigame, which is a horrible confession for an English major. Thought Hubris Comics should have had more Grognak issues, although I really liked the fan mail and the text adventure game in there. Didn’t like not being able to kill Amata or Andy the Robot at the outset because I hated them both. I didn’t like that the first potential companion was a bad Karma companion and expensive, but then the twin goals of being an asshole and scrounging up a thousand caps became bait and a challenge in trying to get him — when I got Jericho, I felt like I’d earned him as a companion. I think Repair became too valuable as a skill, but it’s better than the special case it was in Fallout 1 and 2, so I’d rather that than it remain a broken skill (like Doctor in F2). Maybe because I’m approaching it from the development end, I didn’t care, but I think the level cap turned a number of people off, as did not being able to play after and continue the game until Broken Steel came out. Some of the locations I think broke the 4th wall (Dunwich, which I actually enjoyed playing, just not the premise).

So that said…

Likes: Opening immersion and re-introducing you into the Fallout world. Fallout 1 and 2 had consistently broken or special case skills that were rectified in F3 (for example, Repair — and Doctor vs. First Aid in Fallout 2 became broken without a time limit, so Medicine was clearly an improvement). Fast Travel. Felt my skills mattered in general. The kitchen bell XP sound. I love radiation more in F3, it makes me pay close attention to the environment, I loved the Grognak text adventure game, I loved the Gutsy and Robobrain combat barkstrings, I liked the usage of the radio and the reactivity to the player’s actions — that seemed an elegant way of reinforcing your actions in the world as well as introducing a bad guy you couldn’t immediately shoot in the face, I liked a lot of the moments in the game, including suddenly being surrounded by the creepy Andale residents after entering the basement in town, I never thought a neighborhood filled with land mines would be a good adventure locale and I ate my words, loved the juxtaposition of real world mundane locations and their change into dungeons (Campgrounds, Springvale School, Super Duper Mart). Liked tracking down radio transmission signals for rewards. This is the first game I’ve ever played where I was excited to see barricades.* Nerd Rage surprised me as a Perk — chose it by default at one level only so I could drop grenades on myself to increase my carrying capacity and found it surprisingly useful at saving my ass when I walked into an ambush. The Pitt DLC, especially the opening vista crossing the bridge, is incredible. Liked the lockpick minigame. The Arlington Cemetery actually hit me pretty hard, and as a location it really drove home the futility of war to me — just seeing all those graves with Washington DC stretching out behind it made me feel really bad. Loved firing my combat shotgun into a bus with 5 ghouls trapped on the Dupont Circle freeway below and watching the whole screen erupt in fire. Consistently being rewarded for exploring the environment — there was always at least three things to see on the horizon that you wanted to go check out. I didn’t think I would like Liberty Prime, but the Iron Giant aspect worked for me and made me do a 180. I liked the Brotherhood camping out at the Pentagon. The sign inside the portable bomb shelters made me smile. I liked the Time Bandits aspects of Mothership Zeta. Seeing Dogmeat on fire, and being so tough that he didn’t even care that he was on fire. Liked playing as a Psycho-using alcoholic and murdering caravan folks for things I didn’t even need. Thought beer was valuable as a ST enhancer to carry loot. Liked the Well-Rested Perk. Shiskebab rocks — tap and burn.

* Yes, barricades. I have never had anything but hate for barricades until this game. They block my progress. Fuck barricades. But in F3, they are filled with the equivalent of RPG candy — containers are usually embedded in the wreckage, which was a great way to turn something hated into a gaming loot opportunity. Good level design call.

UH, WHAT’S A “BARKSTRING”?

Different companies have different names for this, but it’s the “bark” (usually 1 line of text or VO) that floats above a character or they say without entering an actual dialogue window.

DID YOU PLAY FALLOUT 4

About 3 hours, then quit over a level design/encounter issue and haven’t gone back.

DID YOU PLAY FALLOUT 76

No.

WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT NEW VEGAS 2. COME ON. TELL US. NOW.

Nothing. Except it probably wouldn’t be called “New Vegas 2”.

I do think any such game would require Bethesda’s support, even though they are owned by Microsoft. I know people assume that Phil Spencer could simply force Bethesda to do something, that’s not the pattern from the studios that Microsoft has acquired.

That’s it for now. Looking forward to your questions. If I can answer them, I will.
 
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Many years before the Great War of 2077, specifically, the late 90s and a few years into the new millennium (2002, in fact), a time when all things regarding Fallout seemed to be going nowhere at Interplay, I worked on a “keep awareness of Fallout high (and also test out the community reaction to ideas)” series of releases called the “Fallout Bible.”
iirc didn't he originally state the reason for the fallout bible was a proposed tabletop game?
 

Roguey

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If you’re looking for what’s canon and what’s not, then the actual game content from the Bethesda/Bethesda-backed titles (F3, NV, F4, 76) are the sources you should refer to (F1, F2, Tactics are not necessarily canon).

:lol:

Obsidian also has Leonard Boyarsky and Tim Cain on board, even though both are on Outer Worlds (2), and Leonard and Tim are the original creators of Fallout.

They're on Outer Worlds 2 but not directing it? Strange.

I BET YOU HATE BETHESDA FOR WHAT THEY DID TO FALLOUT

Nope.

If anything, they kept it alive, and then added a much deeper layer of open-world exploration than anything we’d been able to do at Interplay.

Also, the marketing department at Bethesda had a much stronger push than anything Interplay could have made happen, and arguably helped Fallout enter the mainstream more than Interplay ever could have done. There’s a reason you’ll see Fallout shirts at Target, and that alone is a pretty big accomplishment (whether you agree that’s an accomplishment or not).

DID YOU PLAY FALLOUT 4

About 3 hours, then quit over a level design/encounter issue and haven’t gone back.

DID YOU PLAY FALLOUT 76

No.

:lol:
 

deuxhero

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And also gets a bit too dangerously based when he expresses his approval of a fictional relationship between a 19 year old man and a 14 year old girl (this is why they were split up, the editor-in-chief got nervous and squeamish about it). https://twitter.com/ChrisAvellone/status/1511199081212747778

I will never forgive Secret Wars for breaking up Colossus and Kitty Pryde

Playing with that is why I think Billy Batson/Captain MarvelxStar Girl was a good comics couple. People around them not realizing Captain Marvel is actually the younger of the two and just has the ability to transform into an adult body was a nice gimmick and accomplished the near impossible for fictional romance of showing the audience something they haven't seen before without using very modern trends/tech that makes it instantly dated and did it with established characters in a natural way.
 

koyota

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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming!
What an incline post by Chris.

Some of the locations I think broke the 4th wall (Dunwich, which I actually enjoyed playing, just not the premise).

My autistic question:

What does Dunwich do to break the 4th wall?
Is he talking about having Call of Cthulu style-Insanity elements in a Fallout game?
 

Roguey

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What does Dunwich do to break the 4th wall?
Is he talking about having Call of Cthulu style-Insanity elements in a Fallout game?
Yes, explicit Lovecraft fantasy elements/references should have no place in Fallout.
 

Roguey

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https://twitter.com/ChrisAvellone/status/1513667386209038339

Avellone said:
From Chris's verbiage, it seems like he thinks Bethesds would be resistive to sharing the IP. Which seems silly. They literally already shared it....with Obsidian.
They did, but it wasn't 100% willingly, speaking as someone who was in the room listening while the "challenges" to sharing it were being discussed by the Bethesda heads.

It's like saying BioWare "shared" the Baldur's Gate IP for Dark Alliance with Black Isle. They didn't. And BioWare wasn't happy they weren't able to weigh in on that, it caused a lot of problems at the studio. Did it do well? Sure. Could it have been handled better? Yes.

The point is, a studio's IP is something a studio (esp. creatives) feel strongly about, and to pass it off to someone else without strong oversight is hard for some to do, and that's normal. You want to protect what you care about it, not see it distilled or tarnished.

Amused to see support for an Obsidian spin-off title wasn't unanimous at Bethesda. Todd was in their corner, but not other guys.

Bioware was being daft though. They didn't create Baldur's Gate, it wasn't even their idea to name the title after a pre-existing city in the Forgotten Realms (that was Feargus's and allegedly the Biodocs didn't even like it). They have zero ownership over it.
 

Nano

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Strap Yourselves In
Bioware was being daft though. They didn't create Baldur's Gate, it wasn't even their idea to name the title after a pre-existing city in the Forgotten Realms (that was Feargus's and allegedly the Biodocs didn't even like it). They have zero ownership over it.
At least they didn't hold any grudges though, seeing how they happily handed off KotOR 2 to them.

Well, at least the Doctors didn't. Karpyshyn's writing for the Exile is saturated with hatred and bitterness.
 
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iirc didn't he originally state the reason for the fallout bible was a proposed tabletop game?

No. The goal was to preserve canon during a time when the Aussies were working on Tactics.
1. When is Fallout 3 going to happen?/How's Fallout 3 coming along?/I heard you guys are working on Fallout 3! When is it due out?/Will Fallout 3 be ready by Christmas?/Is Fallout 3 contingent on getting the Bible done?/Are you guys planning a sequel to Fallout 2?

Fallout 3 isn't in production.

Fallout 3 isn't contingent on getting the Bible done.

The Fallout Bible isn't a marketing ploy.

I am compiling this information because it's fun and because I'm trying to get prepped to release a Fallout pen-and-paper game (for free) on the web, and it pays to run this stuff by you guys and get your feedback, since a hundred extra pairs of eyes (and torches) never hurts.
 

agris

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Bioware was being daft though. They didn't create Baldur's Gate, it wasn't even their idea to name the title after a pre-existing city in the Forgotten Realms (that was Feargus's and allegedly the Biodocs didn't even like it). They have zero ownership over it.

Are you speaking purely in the sense of naming it? BioWare very much did create Battleground Infinity, and then Baldur’s gate, even if they didn’t name it or even fully develop the concepts of it.

They literally crafted it with their hands, though.

edit: good summary with links to source material https://forums.beamdog.com/discussi...e-context-of-rtwp-tb-legacy-of-original-games
 
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Roguey

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Are you speaking purely in the sense of naming it? BioWare very much did create Battleground Infinity, and then Baldur’s gate, even if they didn’t name it or even fully develop the concepts of it.

They literally crafted it with their hands, though.

I'm saying they made a game using other people's ideas/intellectual property and the work-for-hire contract they agreed to made it clear they had no ownership of the ideas they were contributing themselves.
 

agris

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Are you speaking purely in the sense of naming it? BioWare very much did create Battleground Infinity, and then Baldur’s gate, even if they didn’t name it or even fully develop the concepts of it.

They literally crafted it with their hands, though.

I'm saying they made a game using other people's ideas/intellectual property and the work-for-hire contract they agreed to made it clear they had no ownership of the ideas they were contributing themselves.
Ok, but having no contractural right to material doesn’t mean they didn’t create it. Yes, being a D&D game and the name came from Interplay, but Feargus was the the omnipresent “idea guy” and the actual creation of all the stories, quests, characters etc was done by BioWare.

At least, I’m not aware of any first parties asserting otherwise.

my point: you are speaking from a contractural perspective (“bioware doesn’t own it”) which is different from a creator perspective (“BioWare didn’t make it”).

For those not familiar with this history, it’s probably good to distinguish.
 

mediocrepoet

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Are you speaking purely in the sense of naming it? BioWare very much did create Battleground Infinity, and then Baldur’s gate, even if they didn’t name it or even fully develop the concepts of it.

They literally crafted it with their hands, though.

I'm saying they made a game using other people's ideas/intellectual property and the work-for-hire contract they agreed to made it clear they had no ownership of the ideas they were contributing themselves.
Ok, but having no contractural right to material doesn’t mean they didn’t create it. Yes, being a D&D game and the name came from Interplay, but Feargus was the the omnipresent “idea guy” and the actual creation of all the stories, quests, characters etc was done by BioWare.

At least, I’m not aware of any first parties asserting otherwise.

my point: you are speaking from a contractural perspective (“bioware doesn’t own it”) which is different from a creator perspective (“BioWare didn’t make it”).

For those not familiar with this history, it’s probably good to distinguish.

What? Bioware did not create the city of Baldur's Gate, the Forgotten Realms, the names, Gods, setting, etc. They have no rights to the name Baldur's Gate. Roguey's point was pretty clear.
 

Roguey

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Ok, but having no contractural right to material doesn’t mean they didn’t create it. Yes, being a D&D game and the name came from Interplay, but Feargus was the the omnipresent “idea guy” and the actual creation of all the stories, quests, characters etc was done by BioWare.

At least, I’m not aware of any first parties asserting otherwise.

my point: you are speaking from a contractural perspective (“bioware doesn’t own it”) which is different from a creator perspective (“BioWare didn’t make it”).

For those not familiar with this history, it’s probably good to distinguish.

I'm saying they didn't create the name or city of Baldur's Gate (Ed Greenwood and Jeff Grubb did in 1990) so it was absolutely none of their business if the people who owned Baldur's Gate wanted to make other games called Baldur's Gate without their input.
 

agris

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Guess it wasn’t clear to me! I read it as “they didn’t make the game, they shouldn’t mind another game called the same thing”.

edit: mediocrepoet im not saying they created the name, I think it’s clear that I’m talking about the game. A company that makes the game [PROPER NOUN] has a right to not like another company making [PROPER NOUN]:[ADJECTIVE] [NOUN] without consulting them - when the proper noun is sufficiently unique to cause the consumer to make an instant mental association with the original game.

I get was roguey was going for in the post I quoted, I felt it was misleading though. Maybe I’m the only one!
 
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Are you speaking purely in the sense of naming it? BioWare very much did create Battleground Infinity, and then Baldur’s gate, even if they didn’t name it or even fully develop the concepts of it.

They literally crafted it with their hands, though.

I'm saying they made a game using other people's ideas/intellectual property and the work-for-hire contract they agreed to made it clear they had no ownership of the ideas they were contributing themselves.
Ok, but having no contractural right to material doesn’t mean they didn’t create it. Yes, being a D&D game and the name came from Interplay, but Feargus was the the omnipresent “idea guy” and the actual creation of all the stories, quests, characters etc was done by BioWare.

At least, I’m not aware of any first parties asserting otherwise.

my point: you are speaking from a contractural perspective (“bioware doesn’t own it”) which is different from a creator perspective (“BioWare didn’t make it”).

For those not familiar with this history, it’s probably good to distinguish.

What? Bioware did not create the city of Baldur's Gate, the Forgotten Realms, the names, Gods, setting, etc. They have no rights to the name Baldur's Gate. Roguey's point was pretty clear.

They didn't make the setting, but made an interpretation of an existing one. You underestimate how those interpretation can be wildly different.
 
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https://twitter.com/ChrisAvellone/status/1513667386209038339

Avellone said:
From Chris's verbiage, it seems like he thinks Bethesds would be resistive to sharing the IP. Which seems silly. They literally already shared it....with Obsidian.
They did, but it wasn't 100% willingly, speaking as someone who was in the room listening while the "challenges" to sharing it were being discussed by the Bethesda heads.

It's like saying BioWare "shared" the Baldur's Gate IP for Dark Alliance with Black Isle. They didn't. And BioWare wasn't happy they weren't able to weigh in on that, it caused a lot of problems at the studio. Did it do well? Sure. Could it have been handled better? Yes.

The point is, a studio's IP is something a studio (esp. creatives) feel strongly about, and to pass it off to someone else without strong oversight is hard for some to do, and that's normal. You want to protect what you care about it, not see it distilled or tarnished.

Amused to see support for an Obsidian spin-off title wasn't unanimous at Bethesda. Todd was in their corner, but not other guys.

Bioware was being daft though. They didn't create Baldur's Gate, it wasn't even their idea to name the title after a pre-existing city in the Forgotten Realms (that was Feargus's and allegedly the Biodocs didn't even like it). They have zero ownership over it.
It's a stupid position, the way IPs are religiously guarded borders on insanity with no basis in reality.
Following this logic, D&D should be a dead brand wrt video games right now after two decades of faceplants.
 

agris

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Regardless, anyone who read Roguey’s initial post the same way I did will now have the context to understand what he meant - if they needed it at all. I didn’t mean for this to be a distraction.
 

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