Incline Chris Avellone Appreciation Station

[rusty_shackleford]

Many years before the Great War of 2077, specifically, the late 90s and a few years into the new millennium (2002, in fact), a time when all things regarding Fallout seemed to be going nowhere at Interplay, I worked on a “keep awareness of Fallout high (and also test out the community reaction to ideas)” series of releases called the “Fallout Bible.”

iirc didn't he originally state the reason for the fallout bible was a proposed tabletop game?

 

[Roguey]

If you’re looking for what’s canon and what’s not, then the actual game content from the Bethesda/Bethesda-backed titles (F3, NV, F4, 76) are the sources you should refer to (F1, F2, Tactics are not necessarily canon).

Obsidian also has Leonard Boyarsky and Tim Cain on board, even though both are on Outer Worlds (2), and Leonard and Tim are the original creators of Fallout.

They're on Outer Worlds 2 but not directing it? Strange.

I BET YOU HATE BETHESDA FOR WHAT THEY DID TO FALLOUT

Nope.

If anything, they kept it alive, and then added a much deeper layer of open-world exploration than anything we’d been able to do at Interplay.

Also, the marketing department at Bethesda had a much stronger push than anything Interplay could have made happen, and arguably helped Fallout enter the mainstream more than Interplay ever could have done. There’s a reason you’ll see Fallout shirts at Target, and that alone is a pretty big accomplishment (whether you agree that’s an accomplishment or not).

DID YOU PLAY FALLOUT 4

About 3 hours, then quit over a level design/encounter issue and haven’t gone back.

DID YOU PLAY FALLOUT 76

No.

 

[Kleptocratic debt serf]

DID YOU PLAY FALLOUT 4

About 3 hours, then quit over a level design/encounter issue and haven’t gone back.

This encounter, did it happen to have some wolves?

 

[deuxhero]

And also gets a bit too dangerously based when he expresses his approval of a fictional relationship between a 19 year old man and a 14 year old girl (this is why they were split up, the editor-in-chief got nervous and squeamish about it). https://twitter.com/ChrisAvellone/status/1511199081212747778

I will never forgive Secret Wars for breaking up Colossus and Kitty Pryde

Playing with that is why I think Billy Batson/Captain MarvelxStar Girl was a good comics couple. People around them not realizing Captain Marvel is actually the younger of the two and just has the ability to transform into an adult body was a nice gimmick and accomplished the near impossible for fictional romance of showing the audience something they haven't seen before without using very modern trends/tech that makes it instantly dated and did it with established characters in a natural way.

 

[koyota]

What an incline post by Chris.

Some of the locations I think broke the 4th wall (Dunwich, which I actually enjoyed playing, just not the premise).

My autistic question:

What does Dunwich do to break the 4th wall?
Is he talking about having Call of Cthulu style-Insanity elements in a Fallout game?

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

"It was confusing to find one’s way around Megaton, although it had beautiful set pieces and I got used to it."

 

[Roguey]

What does Dunwich do to break the 4th wall?
Is he talking about having Call of Cthulu style-Insanity elements in a Fallout game?

Yes, explicit Lovecraft fantasy elements/references should have no place in Fallout.

 

[Roguey]

https://twitter.com/ChrisAvellone/status/1513667386209038339

From Chris's verbiage, it seems like he thinks Bethesds would be resistive to sharing the IP. Which seems silly. They literally already shared it....with Obsidian.

They did, but it wasn't 100% willingly, speaking as someone who was in the room listening while the "challenges" to sharing it were being discussed by the Bethesda heads.

It's like saying BioWare "shared" the Baldur's Gate IP for Dark Alliance with Black Isle. They didn't. And BioWare wasn't happy they weren't able to weigh in on that, it caused a lot of problems at the studio. Did it do well? Sure. Could it have been handled better? Yes.

The point is, a studio's IP is something a studio (esp. creatives) feel strongly about, and to pass it off to someone else without strong oversight is hard for some to do, and that's normal. You want to protect what you care about it, not see it distilled or tarnished.

Amused to see support for an Obsidian spin-off title wasn't unanimous at Bethesda. Todd was in their corner, but not other guys.

Bioware was being daft though. They didn't create Baldur's Gate, it wasn't even their idea to name the title after a pre-existing city in the Forgotten Realms (that was Feargus's and allegedly the Biodocs didn't even like it). They have zero ownership over it.

 

[MF]

iirc didn't he originally state the reason for the fallout bible was a proposed tabletop game?

No. The goal was to preserve canon during a time when the Aussies were working on Tactics.

 

[Nano]

Bioware was being daft though. They didn't create Baldur's Gate, it wasn't even their idea to name the title after a pre-existing city in the Forgotten Realms (that was Feargus's and allegedly the Biodocs didn't even like it). They have zero ownership over it.

At least they didn't hold any grudges though, seeing how they happily handed off KotOR 2 to them.

Well, at least the Doctors didn't. Karpyshyn's writing for the Exile is saturated with hatred and bitterness.

 

[Old Hans]

Techland couldn't wrap their heads around nonlinear narratives

after playing dying light 2 im pretty sure they cant even wrap their heads around a linear narrative

 

[rusty_shackleford]

iirc didn't he originally state the reason for the fallout bible was a proposed tabletop game?

No. The goal was to preserve canon during a time when the Aussies were working on Tactics.

1. When is Fallout 3 going to happen?/How's Fallout 3 coming along?/I heard you guys are working on Fallout 3! When is it due out?/Will Fallout 3 be ready by Christmas?/Is Fallout 3 contingent on getting the Bible done?/Are you guys planning a sequel to Fallout 2?

Fallout 3 isn't in production.

Fallout 3 isn't contingent on getting the Bible done.

The Fallout Bible isn't a marketing ploy.

I am compiling this information because it's fun and because I'm trying to get prepped to release a Fallout pen-and-paper game (for free) on the web, and it pays to run this stuff by you guys and get your feedback, since a hundred extra pairs of eyes (and torches) never hurts.

 

[agris]

Bioware was being daft though. They didn't create Baldur's Gate, it wasn't even their idea to name the title after a pre-existing city in the Forgotten Realms (that was Feargus's and allegedly the Biodocs didn't even like it). They have zero ownership over it.

Are you speaking purely in the sense of naming it? BioWare very much did create Battleground Infinity, and then Baldur’s gate, even if they didn’t name it or even fully develop the concepts of it.

They literally crafted it with their hands, though.

edit: good summary with links to source material https://forums.beamdog.com/discussi...e-context-of-rtwp-tb-legacy-of-original-games

 

[Roguey]

Are you speaking purely in the sense of naming it? BioWare very much did create Battleground Infinity, and then Baldur’s gate, even if they didn’t name it or even fully develop the concepts of it.

They literally crafted it with their hands, though.

I'm saying they made a game using other people's ideas/intellectual property and the work-for-hire contract they agreed to made it clear they had no ownership of the ideas they were contributing themselves.

 

[agris]

Are you speaking purely in the sense of naming it? BioWare very much did create Battleground Infinity, and then Baldur’s gate, even if they didn’t name it or even fully develop the concepts of it.

They literally crafted it with their hands, though.

I'm saying they made a game using other people's ideas/intellectual property and the work-for-hire contract they agreed to made it clear they had no ownership of the ideas they were contributing themselves.

Ok, but having no contractural right to material doesn’t mean they didn’t create it. Yes, being a D&D game and the name came from Interplay, but Feargus was the the omnipresent “idea guy” and the actual creation of all the stories, quests, characters etc was done by BioWare.

At least, I’m not aware of any first parties asserting otherwise.

my point: you are speaking from a contractural perspective (“bioware doesn’t own it”) which is different from a creator perspective (“BioWare didn’t make it”).

For those not familiar with this history, it’s probably good to distinguish.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Are you speaking purely in the sense of naming it? BioWare very much did create Battleground Infinity, and then Baldur’s gate, even if they didn’t name it or even fully develop the concepts of it.

They literally crafted it with their hands, though.

I'm saying they made a game using other people's ideas/intellectual property and the work-for-hire contract they agreed to made it clear they had no ownership of the ideas they were contributing themselves.

Ok, but having no contractural right to material doesn’t mean they didn’t create it. Yes, being a D&D game and the name came from Interplay, but Feargus was the the omnipresent “idea guy” and the actual creation of all the stories, quests, characters etc was done by BioWare.

At least, I’m not aware of any first parties asserting otherwise.

my point: you are speaking from a contractural perspective (“bioware doesn’t own it”) which is different from a creator perspective (“BioWare didn’t make it”).

For those not familiar with this history, it’s probably good to distinguish.

What? Bioware did not create the city of Baldur's Gate, the Forgotten Realms, the names, Gods, setting, etc. They have no rights to the name Baldur's Gate. Roguey's point was pretty clear.

 

[Roguey]

Ok, but having no contractural right to material doesn’t mean they didn’t create it. Yes, being a D&D game and the name came from Interplay, but Feargus was the the omnipresent “idea guy” and the actual creation of all the stories, quests, characters etc was done by BioWare.

At least, I’m not aware of any first parties asserting otherwise.

my point: you are speaking from a contractural perspective (“bioware doesn’t own it”) which is different from a creator perspective (“BioWare didn’t make it”).

For those not familiar with this history, it’s probably good to distinguish.

I'm saying they didn't create the name or city of Baldur's Gate (Ed Greenwood and Jeff Grubb did in 1990) so it was absolutely none of their business if the people who owned Baldur's Gate wanted to make other games called Baldur's Gate without their input.

 

[agris]

Guess it wasn’t clear to me! I read it as “they didn’t make the game, they shouldn’t mind another game called the same thing”.

edit: mediocrepoet im not saying they created the name, I think it’s clear that I’m talking about the game. A company that makes the game [PROPER NOUN] has a right to not like another company making [PROPER NOUN]:[ADJECTIVE] [NOUN] without consulting them - when the proper noun is sufficiently unique to cause the consumer to make an instant mental association with the original game.

I get was roguey was going for in the post I quoted, I felt it was misleading though. Maybe I’m the only one!

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Are you speaking purely in the sense of naming it? BioWare very much did create Battleground Infinity, and then Baldur’s gate, even if they didn’t name it or even fully develop the concepts of it.

They literally crafted it with their hands, though.

I'm saying they made a game using other people's ideas/intellectual property and the work-for-hire contract they agreed to made it clear they had no ownership of the ideas they were contributing themselves.

Ok, but having no contractural right to material doesn’t mean they didn’t create it. Yes, being a D&D game and the name came from Interplay, but Feargus was the the omnipresent “idea guy” and the actual creation of all the stories, quests, characters etc was done by BioWare.

At least, I’m not aware of any first parties asserting otherwise.

my point: you are speaking from a contractural perspective (“bioware doesn’t own it”) which is different from a creator perspective (“BioWare didn’t make it”).

For those not familiar with this history, it’s probably good to distinguish.

What? Bioware did not create the city of Baldur's Gate, the Forgotten Realms, the names, Gods, setting, etc. They have no rights to the name Baldur's Gate. Roguey's point was pretty clear.

They didn't make the setting, but made an interpretation of an existing one. You underestimate how those interpretation can be wildly different.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

https://twitter.com/ChrisAvellone/status/1513667386209038339

From Chris's verbiage, it seems like he thinks Bethesds would be resistive to sharing the IP. Which seems silly. They literally already shared it....with Obsidian.

They did, but it wasn't 100% willingly, speaking as someone who was in the room listening while the "challenges" to sharing it were being discussed by the Bethesda heads.

It's like saying BioWare "shared" the Baldur's Gate IP for Dark Alliance with Black Isle. They didn't. And BioWare wasn't happy they weren't able to weigh in on that, it caused a lot of problems at the studio. Did it do well? Sure. Could it have been handled better? Yes.

The point is, a studio's IP is something a studio (esp. creatives) feel strongly about, and to pass it off to someone else without strong oversight is hard for some to do, and that's normal. You want to protect what you care about it, not see it distilled or tarnished.

Amused to see support for an Obsidian spin-off title wasn't unanimous at Bethesda. Todd was in their corner, but not other guys.

Bioware was being daft though. They didn't create Baldur's Gate, it wasn't even their idea to name the title after a pre-existing city in the Forgotten Realms (that was Feargus's and allegedly the Biodocs didn't even like it). They have zero ownership over it.

It's a stupid position, the way IPs are religiously guarded borders on insanity with no basis in reality.
Following this logic, D&D should be a dead brand wrt video games right now after two decades of faceplants.

 

[agris]

Regardless, anyone who read Roguey’s initial post the same way I did will now have the context to understand what he meant - if they needed it at all. I didn’t mean for this to be a distraction.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Worth pointing out that the Time of Troubles was a big company wide event for Forgotten Realms at the time BG was in pre-production. TSR was pushing it in adventures, source books, and novels, and I wouldn’t be surprised at all if a condition of BG getting greenlit was that it also had to touch on it in some way.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

The Time of Troubles was an "event" for the Forgotten Realms in 1989 to provide an in-setting explanation for changes in rules from AD&D 1st edition to AD&D 2nd edition --- rather superfluous, since the differences were limited enough that they could easily be handwaved away via retroactive continuity. TSR released a trilogy of related adventure modules --- FRE1 Shadowdale, FRE2 Tantras, and FRE3 Waterdeep --- accompanied by a trilogy of novels bearing the same names and cover art.

 

[deuxhero]

TSR released a trilogy of related adventure modules --- FRE1 Shadowdale, FRE2 Tantras, and FRE3 Waterdeep --- accompanied by a trilogy of novels bearing the same names and cover art.

Aren't those considered railroady and non-interactive to the point they're the worst modules ever published by TSR, even including The Forest Oracle?

 

[Volrath]

The Time of Troubles was an "event" for the Forgotten Realms in 1989 to provide an in-setting explanation for changes in rules from AD&D 1st edition to AD&D 2nd edition --- rather superfluous, since the differences were limited enough that they could easily be handwaved away via retroactive continuity. TSR released a trilogy of related adventure modules --- FRE1 Shadowdale, FRE2 Tantras, and FRE3 Waterdeep --- accompanied by a trilogy of novels bearing the same names and cover art.

Christ that cover art is fantastic...