Incline Chris Avellone Appreciation Station

[Lhynn]

"If I ever spent more than a fraction of a second worrying about how to make games fun, it would be too long."--Josh Sawyer

If this were true, he'd devote no time at all to balance.

Balance never made any game more fun, just more polished. Also the system he came up with is cancer, why would anyone sane want to spend time polishing that pos is beyond me.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Balance never made any game more fun

It apparently does for those so obsessed with how other people play the games that they must be sure everybody is playing them THE CORRECT WAY! They are good people, interested only in your well being and in having you play correctly they get their own fun.

 

[Fairfax]

The turbo subscriber said "be nice" just before I said that, so I assumed he was the moderator.
At least when I was banned in the D:OS2 Codex vs. Watch stream the mod bothered to say something.

What happened? Since I was the one actually playing

Spoiler

(and destroying The Watch )

I didn't see any of the chats going on.

Yeah, that was fun. Nice job.

Some of us were trashtalking the Watch nonstop. At some point, Bubbles* started to pretend he was an RPGWatch member and some of us played along. We both got timed out several times IIRC.
Don't remember exactly what I said, but I remember making up stuff about their GOTY picks over the years, saying they picked Fallout 3, Mass Effect 3 and so on. (I googled their GOTYs later on and they all turned out to be true )

Anyway, Bubbles was the one doing the most clever trolling.

Bubblegum_Bandit: As the Minister of Affairs for RPGWatch and highest ranked member of the Third-Watch Cult, Devotees of Watchwitz, I must declare that it was in the world's interest that we lost to RPGCodex this day; in no other circumstances, but for continued world peace, would we lose to Codex.

Bubblegum_Bandit: As an RPGWatch preliminary expert I must announce that I think there's too much focus on combat and skills in D:OS, and not enough story. I hope this is fixed in D:OS2.

Bubblegum_Bandit: As an RPGWatch patient, and David Gaider's personal fluffer, I must inform Swen that David Gaider can be hired for the low, low price of a brand new toupee and a bottle of non-alcoholic beer.

Bubblegum_Bandit: As an RPGWatch champion of the arena, nothing I do is childish, because I am an adult. Children do childish things, not adults like me. Please add Adult Mode, Swen.

Bubblegum_Bandit: As David Gaider, Divine Saint of the RPGWatch and their primary contributor, I would like to let you @LarianStudios know that I accept the job.

Bubblegum_Bandit: It is in my interests that Swen switches clothes with the man in the tie. But only wearing the tie.

Bubblegum_Bandit: As an RPGWatch member, I would like to request regenerating health and that death be removed. They are limitations of old and white-washed game design.

Bubblegum_Bandit: As the most dedicated brony of the brony stronghold RPGWatch, I demand at least RainbowDash as part of this shapeshifting.

Bubblegum_Bandit: As a partisan of the RPGWatch RPG Elite Community, I would like to speak for this woman and say that the writing shall be much improved by the recent hiring of David Gaider.

Bubblegum_Bandit:As your common RPGWatch member, I would like to stress that an experience such as this is triggering. I, as an average RPGWatch memeber, never had love from my mother. Please make this scene optional.

Bubblegum_Bandit: As the treasurer of RPGWatch, I shall hereby demand that we revoke our secret secondary payments made via Greg Martin Enterprises.

Bubblegum_Bandit: Every fight needs to be a eunuch, I agree. Testosterone is the plight of the modern man, so says RPGWatch.

Bubblegum_Bandit: @Boolsheat The new Enhanced Edition of DOS has been personally co-opted by RPGWatch's excellent writing staff, and features 90% more LGBT dialogue options, such as; 'Where's the nearest cocktail counter?'

Bubblegum_Bandit: I have already called the bank for my ninth mortgage to fund this game, in the name of RPGWatch.**

Bubblegum_Bandit: @LarianStudios Is Swen available for after-stream consultation meetings with top contributing RPGWatch memebers?

It was genius because random people who had nothing to do with the rivalry started to complain about the RPGWatch and how annoying we were, while actual users were trying to convince everyone we were frauds.

I was also honoured that Swen took my question:

"FairfaxOne: Can Undead characters be transgender? RPGWatch wants to know."


*He said it was someone impersonating him, but he seems to speak with a subtle sarcasm all the time, so I think that was part of the joke as well.
**Proper context for lurkers: this joke refers to one RPGWatch member - who also posts here - that donated $4000 to their D:OS2 fundraiser because it was failing.

 

[Lhynn]

Balance never made any game more fun

It apparently does for those so obsessed with how other people play the games that they must be sure everybody is playing them THE CORRECT WAY! They are good people, interested only in your well being and in having you play correctly they get their own fun.

Hah, it still doesnt make it more fun, it just gives their OCD a bit of pause.

 

[Roguey]

Balance never made any game more fun, just more polished. Also the system he came up with is cancer, why would anyone sane want to spend time polishing that pos is beyond me.

Avellone disagrees http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/mca-leaves-obsidian.99715/page-20#post-3994487

 

[Lhynn]

Avellone disagrees http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/mca-leaves-obsidian.99715/page-20#post-3994487

Fundamentally different discussion, we are talking class and character system balance, hes talking encounter design and gameplay in general. Also hes describing situations where the game itself is completely broken and not challenging in any way.

 

[Infinitron]

"Avellone...is a myth. Designers like him are our genre's last hope and in that sense, he is a truly dangerous man."

"If they're the last of us, Sawyer and Avellone, then God help us!"

 

[Roguey]

Fundamentally different discussion, we are talking class and character system balance, hes talking encounter design and gameplay in general. Also hes describing situations where the game itself is completely broken and not challenging in any way.

The second quote is specifically about class and character system balance.

 

[Rev]

"If I ever spent more than a fraction of a second worrying about how to make games fun, it would be too long."--Josh Sawyer

If this were true, he'd devote no time at all to balance.

Balance never made any game more fun, just more polished. Also the system he came up with is cancer, why would anyone sane want to spend time polishing that pos is beyond me.

Yeah sure, in fact everyone loved Alpha Protocol's broken builds and terribly unpolished gameplay.

 

[Fairfax]

Fundamentally different discussion, we are talking class and character system balance, hes talking encounter design and gameplay in general. Also hes describing situations where the game itself is completely broken and not challenging in any way.

The second quote is specifically about class and character system balance.

He says the most important thing is that they should matter in the gameworld. It's more about every option being viable and relevant in the game, rather than Ultimate Sawyerism of equally good options across the board. He even says it may sound self-evident, and it is.

Just look at PS:T and KOTOR2. It wasn't nearly as important to his design choices in those games than it was for Sawyer in PoE.

 

[Lhynn]

Fundamentally different discussion, we are talking class and character system balance, hes talking encounter design and gameplay in general. Also hes describing situations where the game itself is completely broken and not challenging in any way.

The second quote is specifically about class and character system balance.

Missed it like a dumbfuck. i fail to see where he states that every choice in the gameworld needs to have the same value. Also i disagree with the idea of specialization on a fundamental level, i think that concept in itself is anti fun if used as the basis for any RPG system.

Yeah sure, in fact everyone loved Alpha Protocol's broken builds and terribly unpolished gameplay.

I loved APs broken builds too. As for the unpolished gameplay, i dont think anyone aimed for that, we all know AP development was a nightmare, all the more reason to give less priority to balancing of systems and more to gameplay and the feel of the game.

 

[FeelTheRads]

"If I ever spent more than a fraction of a second worrying about how to make games fun, it would be too long."--Josh Sawyer

If this were true, he'd devote no time at all to balance.

Balance never made any game more fun, just more polished. Also the system he came up with is cancer, why would anyone sane want to spend time polishing that pos is beyond me.

Yeah sure, in fact everyone loved Alpha Protocol's broken builds and terribly unpolished gameplay.

hurr durr, the typical if it's not Sawyer's autistic "everybody's playing games wrong" type of design then it must be like "insert random shit game".

 

[Rev]

Yeah sure, in fact everyone loved Alpha Protocol's broken builds and terribly unpolished gameplay.

I loved APs broken builds too. As for the unpolished gameplay, i dont think anyone aimed for that, we all know AP development was a nightmare, all the more reason to give less priority to balancing of systems and more to gameplay and the feel of the game.

You're like the only one, though. Even the ones who liked the game (myself included, for that matter) criticized its gameplay and how some skills/builds totally destroyed any challenge whatsover, and recognized the game would be better if it was more polished and balanced.

 

[Lhynn]

You're like the only one, though. Even the ones who liked the game (myself included, for that matter) criticized its gameplay and how some skills/builds totally destroyed any challenge whatsover, and recognized the game would be better if it was more polished and balanced.

The game would have been heaps better if it had better gameplay, if shooting or stealthing felt good.
If X skill was worse or better than Y who gives a flying fuck.

 

[Beastro]

"If I ever spent more than a fraction of a second worrying about how to make games fun, it would be too long."--Josh Sawyer

If this were true, he'd devote no time at all to balance.

High point in fun for me in games are discovering unbalanced things that aren't game breaking and gaining an advantage.

The low points in fun are then those are patched out.

The quest for balance may be necessary, but it doesn't make a game more enjoyable except for making use of said imbalance while you can knowing it's going to be taken out.

In that sense, developers, especially ones like Sawyer are as much antagonists to players as the mobs they fight in games.

 

[One-and-a-half-Ivan]

He says the most important thing is that they should matter in the gameworld. It's more about every option being viable and relevant in the game, rather than Ultimate Sawyerism of equally good options across the board. He even says it may sound self-evident, and it is.

Where did Sawyer say that all the choices should be really equal?

 

[Athelas]

Well, this is a surprise (actually, it isn't):

 

[Diablo169]

Oh fuck me. I did not need to know that.

 

[Fairfax]

 

[Neanderthal]

That's no moon.

What can change the nature of a moon. Etc.

 

[Roguey]

Someone's rather happy.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Oh fuck. The atmosphere really must have been heavy there.... MCA is very diplomatic, it's rare for him to have a slip of tongue.

 

[Fairfax]

Oh fuck. The atmosphere really must have been heavy there.... MCA is very diplomatic, it's rare for him to have a slip of tongue.

Going through his interviews from the last couple of years was interesting in that regard. He barely ever mentioned that stuff before 2013 or so, but then he started to bring up the downsides of his job. Most notably, he seemed to hate the corporate side of it: partner meetings, firing people, pitching projects, etc. Most interesting change was this "freedom of genres, franchises" in the tweet above.
In an older interview, Chris said his friend Haden Blackman (ex-LucasArts) told him he envied his job, due to the wide variety of projects he was able to work on, while Blackman could only work on Star Wars. Shortly before and after his departure, however, MCA was talking about how some at Obsidian had a close mindset, always wanted to do the same thing, and so on.

Can't blame him, really. Back then Obsidian worked on fantasy RPGs as usual, but also Aliens, an espionage RPG, Fallout, even Seven Dwarfs. Very distinct franchises and settings. Now they have AW, which is too different, but also PoE, Tyranny, Pathfinder and Skyforge. All very similar, relatively speaking.
In retrospect, the fact he went out of his way to work on FTL for free was quite telling.

 

[Irenaeus III]

What is Skyforge?

 

[StrongBelwas]

What is Skyforge?

Another Russian MMO,this one of the RPG variety, although they are partnered with another development studio for it, so I doubt they are handling the whole thing.