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People News Chris Avellone gives his blessing to inXile's Torment successor, probably won't join

Mastermind

Cognito Elite Material
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Bethestard
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Then tell me why a game that has amazing combat, beautiful graphics and wonderful writing hasn't been made yet? Oh, right. Because Obsidian didn't ask for your money before. Now shit's definitely going to change.

PE is all hype and promises while they're trying to set the bar higher than ever before. And this is still Obsidian we're talking about. Their best game is still a deeply flawed gem.

Doom 2 has already been made, it's just not an RPG. :smug:

Anyway, there's a difference between saying PE won't hit the mark and lying to yourself and claiming the mark isn't worth aiming for at all. If I set out to do a RPG that is great on all fronts but without an AA budget a successor to one of the IE games would be my first bet.
 

jewboy

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@ infinitron & rake: fair enough, but then he goes on:


In games, do you feel that you need to be able to let the players decide for themselves what's meaningful or important?
CA: I think it's fine to suggest a theme, and suggest a question to the player, but ultimately let them find their own answer in the environment. New Vegas obviously had one critical end point, but at the same time, the overarching goal of the game was just to find out where you stand with all these factions. Do you agree with their philosophies? All of them have good and negative points about them. Or do you feel that you have a better vision for the world? And if so, just go out and create your own story. I think that's how you have to approach the narrative of games. Sort of like an open world narrative.
It's hard, because you can't always get the pacing down right, but at the same time, I think because you're allowing the player to choose the pacing, that that actually makes it a more accommodating experience for them.
But yeah, giving up on a really strict structure is one thing that's hard to let go when you move from [other] media to games, especially role playing games. There's so much branching that can take place, and so many different paths the conversation can take and it can be difficult creating a playground for the players.
An analogy I've used is that the player is like a shaman on a spirit quest and as a narrative designer you're kind of like the spirit guide -- you have to put all things in their path that could be meaningful to them, but it's up to them to work out what is ultimately is important to them.
CA: Yeah, I think the more you can allow a player to leave their meaning on the environment, the better the game is going to be for them. Sometimes I get into an argument with designers [about whether] it's better to provide a narrative story arc, or is it better just to provide a bunch of system mechanics and let the player derive their story from that? There's been so many times where any story I've attempted to tell will get trumped by some action the player can do in the game systems, and it's a better story for that, and I can't argue with it.
Do you have an example of that?
CA: Yeah. In New Vegas, our project director used the reputation mechanics between the factions to create a pretty awesome story, and he did it unintentionally. This entire sequence would have taken probably a month of several people's time to actually try and narratively create, and I don't think would have been as strong. He used the reputation system to piss off one faction, Caesar's Legion, and once you piss them off they start sending assassin squads after you whenever you try and sleep. Then he completely reversed and started pissing NCR off. And suddenly they start sending assassin squads after him [as well].
So he's running around the wasteland like a crazy man, and then he wakes up, and both assassin squads have spawned, but because their AI makes them hate each other, they started exterminating each other rather than attacking him. So he waited until they were all dead, and then he just shot the last one. Fantastic story. And because he was able to push the world to make that happen, I think that made it stronger than if we'd tried to narratively design that situation. So I think allowing for stories like that is really important.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not going to be dismantling the 12' high Avellone statue built out of my own feces in front of the inevitable candle-lit altar or the thousands of pictures of him pasted to my bedroom wall with my own semen or even the hundreds of audio/video surveillance devices from his home/office, but people change. I still hold out hope that MCA hasn't given up on the power of narrative in games. After all that is what he's famous for. His raison d'être.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Well, jewboy is right. Chris' growing fascination with emergent gameplay mechanics seems to be a newish thing for him. So it is a change.
 

Rake

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Messages
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@ infinitron & rake: fair enough, but then he goes on:


In games, do you feel that you need to be able to let the players decide for themselves what's meaningful or important?
CA: I think it's fine to suggest a theme, and suggest a question to the player, but ultimately let them find their own answer in the environment. New Vegas obviously had one critical end point, but at the same time, the overarching goal of the game was just to find out where you stand with all these factions. Do you agree with their philosophies? All of them have good and negative points about them. Or do you feel that you have a better vision for the world? And if so, just go out and create your own story. I think that's how you have to approach the narrative of games. Sort of like an open world narrative.
It's hard, because you can't always get the pacing down right, but at the same time, I think because you're allowing the player to choose the pacing, that that actually makes it a more accommodating experience for them.
But yeah, giving up on a really strict structure is one thing that's hard to let go when you move from [other] media to games, especially role playing games. There's so much branching that can take place, and so many different paths the conversation can take and it can be difficult creating a playground for the players.
An analogy I've used is that the player is like a shaman on a spirit quest and as a narrative designer you're kind of like the spirit guide -- you have to put all things in their path that could be meaningful to them, but it's up to them to work out what is ultimately is important to them.
CA: Yeah, I think the more you can allow a player to leave their meaning on the environment, the better the game is going to be for them. Sometimes I get into an argument with designers [about whether] it's better to provide a narrative story arc, or is it better just to provide a bunch of system mechanics and let the player derive their story from that? There's been so many times where any story I've attempted to tell will get trumped by some action the player can do in the game systems, and it's a better story for that, and I can't argue with it.
Do you have an example of that?
CA: Yeah. In New Vegas, our project director used the reputation mechanics between the factions to create a pretty awesome story, and he did it unintentionally. This entire sequence would have taken probably a month of several people's time to actually try and narratively create, and I don't think would have been as strong. He used the reputation system to piss off one faction, Caesar's Legion, and once you piss them off they start sending assassin squads after you whenever you try and sleep. Then he completely reversed and started pissing NCR off. And suddenly they start sending assassin squads after him [as well].
So he's running around the wasteland like a crazy man, and then he wakes up, and both assassin squads have spawned, but because their AI makes them hate each other, they started exterminating each other rather than attacking him. So he waited until they were all dead, and then he just shot the last one. Fantastic story. And because he was able to push the world to make that happen, I think that made it stronger than if we'd tried to narratively design that situation. So I think allowing for stories like that is really important.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not going to be dismantling the 12' high Avellone statue built out of my own feces in front of the inevitable candle-lit altar or the thousands of pictures of him pasted to my bedroom wall with my own semen or even the hundreds of audio/video surveillance devices from his home/office, but people change. I still hold out hope that MCA hasn't given up on the power of narrative in games. After all that is what he's famous for. His raison d'être.

Well, i see your point.But i think this is more of open world problem in Vegas case. Open world game design its not exactly story diriven-friently.The games with the best stories are linear or semi-linear.Also all the games that Obsidian made in the past were ported to consoles too, and consoles aren't text friently
 

jewboy

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No. I'm arguing that it doesn't have to be as interactive as MCA seems to be indicating. I definitely felt that the PS:T story was interactive enough. Yes, I know that PS:T has taken some flack here in the past for being half adventure game--some kind of cRPG-Adventure hybrid or just an interactive story. Some have gone so far as saying that it isn't a real RPG. I don't really have an argument with any of that. All I want to do is point to whatever PS:T was and say, "That is what I want to see again."

Colin seems to have the right idea in focusing on philosophy and central riddles. MCA's comments make me nervous. If he can't be relied on to sell the idea of novel-rpgs then who can? Having said that I don't want to see the opposite extreme with jrpgs and non-interactive cut scenes dominating the narrative or god forbid EAware's idea of RPG-as-movie. Or some hybrid half assed film meets Harlequin romance novel. There's always a balance between interactivity, choice, non-linearity and story and it's a delicate one.
 

IronicNeurotic

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Well, jewboy is right. Chris' growing fascination with emergent gameplay mechanics seems to be a newish thing for him. So it is a change.

No, it isn't. Even if he's praising it a bit overly here, he's had this for a long, long time. Beginning even in his Black Isle days and admiration for Fallout 1. And he certainly knows how to pace it or what game what needs.
 

IronicNeurotic

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No. I'm arguing that it doesn't have to be as interactive as MCA seems to be indicating. I definitely felt that the PS:T story was interactive enough. Yes, I know that PS:T has taken some flack here in the past for being half adventure game--some kind of cRPG-Adventure hybrid or just an interactive story. Some have gone so far as saying that it isn't a real RPG. I don't really have an argument with any of that. All I want to do is point to whatever PS:T was and say, "That is what I want to see again."

Colin seems to have the right idea in focusing on philosophy and central riddles. MCA's comments make me nervous. If he can't be relied on to sell the idea of novel-rpgs then who can? Having said that I don't want to see the opposite extreme with jrpgs and non-interactive cut scenes dominating the narrative or god forbid EAware's idea of RPG-as-movie. Or some hybrid half assed film meets Harlequin romance novel. There's always a balance between interactivity, choice, non-linearity and story and it's a delicate one.

Oh what the hell. If you search for MCA comments search for relevant ones and fucking realize when MCA's talking about different things:

http://forums.obsidian.net/blog/1/entry-155-torment-and-character-agency/

http://kotaku.com/5935737/the-guy-w...us-what-a-spiritual-successor-would-look-like

  • Utilize similar writing style elements (slang, dialogue screen format similar to Planescape), depth (lots of choices per node, lots of reactivity), presentation (action descriptions interwoven in the text) and density (the Wasteland 2 backers have repeatedly asked for more text in Wasteland rather than spending resources on something else like [voiceovers], thankfully enough).
  • Similar narrative mechanics. As a classic example, there's some form of morality/personality bar that's affected by your actions, although I'd want to research some other mechanic tied to the narrative.
 

Rake

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Well, jewboy is right. Chris' growing fascination with emergent gameplay mechanics seems to be a newish thing for him. So it is a change.

No, it isn't. Even if he's praising it a bit overly here, he's had this for a long, long time. Beginning even in his Black Isle days and Fallout 1. And he certainly knows how to pace it or what game what needs.

Well different approaches to diffirent games.Not all games need the same amount of freedom.PS:T was great exactly because of the limitations it forced on you.I'm not saying that i want all my games to resrict me,but it's not like we hade a ton of games who taked a novel approach and as Torment shows they can be great. I'm sure MCA knows what game needs what.He knows what made Torment so great. But we don't know if he is willing to follow the game-novel approach any more .If not its a pity because none can do it better than him. Whether he likes it or not his whole career is defined by Torment, and will continue to be until he makes another game with similar novel approach. Thats said, i still believe he can and wants to do it, he just didn't have the chance before now.
 

IronicNeurotic

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Well, jewboy is right. Chris' growing fascination with emergent gameplay mechanics seems to be a newish thing for him. So it is a change.

No, it isn't. Even if he's praising it a bit overly here, he's had this for a long, long time. Beginning even in his Black Isle days and Fallout 1. And he certainly knows how to pace it or what game what needs.

Well different approaches to diffirent games. I'm sure MCA knows what game needs what.He knows what made Torment so great. But we don't know if he is willing to follow the game-novel approach any more .If not its a pity because none can do it better than him. Whether he likes it or not his whole career is defined by Torment, and will continue to be until he makes another game with similar novel approach. Thats said, i still believe he can and wants to do it, he just didn't have the chance before now.

What does game-novel approach even mean?

Do you mean the expansive descriptions? Because they did that. Like multiple times. Last time in Dead Money with Christine. Even if they never did it again over the whole game.
 

Rake

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Messages
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Well, jewboy is right. Chris' growing fascination with emergent gameplay mechanics seems to be a newish thing for him. So it is a change.

No, it isn't. Even if he's praising it a bit overly here, he's had this for a long, long time. Beginning even in his Black Isle days and Fallout 1. And he certainly knows how to pace it or what game what needs.

Well different approaches to diffirent games. I'm sure MCA knows what game needs what.He knows what made Torment so great. But we don't know if he is willing to follow the game-novel approach any more .If not its a pity because none can do it better than him. Whether he likes it or not his whole career is defined by Torment, and will continue to be until he makes another game with similar novel approach. Thats said, i still believe he can and wants to do it, he just didn't have the chance before now.

What does game-novel approach even mean?

Do you mean the expansive descriptions? Because they did that. Like multiple times. Last time in Dead Money with Christine. Even if they never did it again over the whole game.

I just took an expresion jewboy used, as i was talking to him. And Torment indeed has taken some flack here in the past for being half adventure game--some kind of cRPG-Adventure hybrid or just an interactive story. Someone even said that it would work better as a visual novel. That is the approach i meant. And no, Dead Money doesn't cut it. MotB is a better example of what i mean
 

IronicNeurotic

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How does that matter. I said *last time* and specifically reffered to *Christine*. And last I checked Dead Money came out after MOTB

.....

Let's just leave it, I'm a bit on the bad side anyway. Gotta sleep.
 

Rake

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How does that matter. I said *last time* and specifically reffered to *Christine*. And last I checked Dead Money came out after MOTB

.....

Let's just leave it, I'm a bit on the bad side anyway. Gotta sleep.

Sorry bro, i didn't realized you were talkin only about Christine.I thought the "whole game" thing was because Dead Money was a DLC
 
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Doom 2 has already been made, it's just not an RPG. :smug:


doom-ii-rpg_5.jpg


Are you sure? :smug:
 

Al_Grey

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About MCA involvement: perhaps he simply don`t want to make PS:T sequel or spiritual successor (regardless of Codex opinion about it).
 

jewboy

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About MCA involvement: perhaps he simply don`t want to make PS:T sequel or spiritual successor (regardless of Codex opinion about it).

He may be afraid of putting on weight again and losing his hot girlfriend.
 

HanoverF

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MCA Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Codex USB, 2014 Divinity: Original Sin 2
Guys, I'm pretty sure MCA is too busy prepping for his upcoming Arcanum runthrough to be bothered with something as frivolous as a Torment sequel.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Well they have a nice little uphill battle here. Associate a name with Torment: Avellone. Anyone else would be "Who?" (Or "Why them?") Might have another Thorvalla on our hands.

It surely wouldn't be that bad, but it might underperform, yes.
 

crawlkill

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I'm not sure what it'd mean to make a 'new Torment game.' The first story really finished itself. I don't give a fuck about Nameless anymore. He came full circle, and if he didn't die in the Blood War I don't wanna hear about it (well, no, I'll play it and love him, but I don't see why we should waste our creativity there, is what I really mean). I hope what they really mean is that they want to make a new -Planescape- game with reference to original characters from Torment, and with the same hyper-dialogue-heavy philosophical style (and omg how bout the same graphical engine). And ofc that would be all the heaven. All of it.
 

Brother None

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It surely wouldn't be that bad, but it might underperform, yes.

That's ok. It really doesn't need to perform like WL2 or P:E did, it really doesn't. Also do realize that how this looks now and what we (or you, rather :smug:) know right now is not what we'll know when it launches. A lot of stuff is really flexible and up in the air, and inXile is keeping an eye on all this feedback (by which I mean I keep spamming them about it) and taking it on board. Very little is set in stone at this point.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
It surely wouldn't be that bad, but it might underperform, yes.

That's ok. It really doesn't need to perform like WL2 or P:E did, it really doesn't. Also do realize that how this looks now and what we (or you, rather :smug:) know right now is not what we'll know when it launches. A lot of stuff is really flexible and up in the air, and inXile is keeping an eye on all this feedback (by which I mean I keep spamming them about it) and taking it on board. Very little is set in stone at this point.

Partial funding by the developer, eh?
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
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Sort of? I mean logically, Fargo will keep coming back to Kickstarter because he wants to, but inXile's revenue stream base, games they themselves own and publish, is only expanding. The more that expands, the less you have to worry about Kickstarter.

Oversimplifying things, but you get my gist. WL2 and P:E way overshot their target anyway, which is great but it is possible to budget this stuff with less. Though it would naturally mean a smaller game, too.
 

Wizfall

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For the Torment kickstart i really hope it will be in isometric 2D without rotative/zooming camera.
I wanted to believe so much in W2 that i did not realize how bad the screenshot is (from art to animation in the video).
Well, gameplay and setting/story are way more important though.
 

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