People News Chris Avellone gives his blessing to inXile's Torment successor, probably won't join

[Murk]

I find it interesting how much credit people give the Planescape setting for the games. Planescape is no doubt an interesting setting, and the fluff and "concepts" are very cool -- but in terms of actual rules, you may be surprised how different it is than your experience in Torment. I have never had the fortune of playing a real Planescape game, but a d&d guru whom I trust has the following to say about it:

It's important to remember that the Planescape universe is actually very stupid and that Torment was awesome in spite of that. It took very excellent writing to make a fucking Modron be a character that people didn't find inherently offensive. Don't forget that your compatriots also include a Githzerai, a race that until Torment was a widely hated race of NPCs with class levels - part of the incredibly insulting series of AD&D races who exist for no purpose other than to provide challenges reminiscent of fights against other parties without handing out as much treasure as that would imply.

Torment succeeded, but it had to play incredibly fast and loose with the canon to do so. Of your entire party only Annah is a legal character. The Nameless One is a Mary Stu, Falls From Grace is a Succubus with Cleric levels in Sigil, Nordom is a Chaotic Quadrone with class levels, Dak'kon required a complete rewrite of the Gith canon, Morte isn't even a D&D monster, and Ignus not only has a spellbook full of "spells I made up for this character", he's a completely made-up fire-man thingy.

Saying you want something "like" Torment is rather like saying you want lightning to strike. Absolutely none of the inputs that went in to Torment would lead any rational person to expect a result that wasn't shitty. Only really good writing coupled with blatant contempt for the source material produced a positive result.

 

[Jaesun]

What we really need is a good new Dark Sun, Ravenloft or Planescape game.
Or better yet, all three.

How can a setting as cool as Dark Sun have only have so few games?

That would require WotC/HASBRO and whatever Publisher/Developer they will go forward with making more D&D games. Unfortunately they would want all those games to be shitty action games so no thank you.

 

[Murk]

A Ravenloft game, you say?

 

[hiver]

I find it interesting how much credit people give the Planescape setting for the games. Planescape is no doubt an interesting setting, and the fluff and "concepts" are very cool -- but in terms of actual rules, you may be surprised how different it is than your experience in Torment. I have never had the fortune of playing a real Planescape game, but a d&d guru whom I trust has the following to say about it:

It's important to remember that the Planescape universe is actually very stupid and that Torment was awesome in spite of that. It took very excellent writing to make a fucking Modron be a character that people didn't find inherently offensive. Don't forget that your compatriots also include a Githzerai, a race that until Torment was a widely hated race of NPCs with class levels - part of the incredibly insulting series of AD&D races who exist for no purpose other than to provide challenges reminiscent of fights against other parties without handing out as much treasure as that would imply.

Torment succeeded, but it had to play incredibly fast and loose with the canon to do so. Of your entire party only Annah is a legal character. The Nameless One is a Mary Stu, Falls From Grace is a Succubus with Cleric levels in Sigil, Nordom is a Chaotic Quadrone with class levels, Dak'kon required a complete rewrite of the Gith canon, Morte isn't even a D&D monster, and Ignus not only has a spellbook full of "spells I made up for this character", he's a completely made-up fire-man thingy.

Saying you want something "like" Torment is rather like saying you want lightning to strike. Absolutely none of the inputs that went in to Torment would lead any rational person to expect a result that wasn't shitty. Only really good writing coupled with blatant contempt for the source material produced a positive result.

Its the City of Doors that people actually like. The Sigil and all it brings, the portals, the seemingly endless possibilities of traveling to different planes and how it goes about it. The incredible sense of wonderlust it creates.
Not the AD&D itself.

 

[Hormalakh]

Its the City of Doors that people actually like. The Sigil and all it brings, the portals, the seemingly endless possibilities of traveling to different planes and how it goes about it. The incredible sense of wonderlust it creates.
Not the AD&D itself.

So then there is no reason to have to go back to Planescape, is there? Just make a city-of-doors setting and all will be gravy. I don't think it's that simple. Maybe PS:T was so crazy and out there and illogical that it just made sense. You can't put your finger on why, but so many things that were "terrible" separately made quite the delicious PS:T soup when put together.

 

[hiver]

No, no, the city is not ALL of what made the game great.
But thats the biggest reason people talk about missing the "setting".

As for making something like it... as you might guess its a bit complicated since it has to be different enough to avoid lawsuits from WotC and Hasbro.
I actually suggested/asked Colin about that over on Wasteland forums already.

 

[Jaesun]

Yeah I assume WotC/HASBRO will be watching PE and this game closely for copyright.

 

[hiver]

Yet, the belief, when strong enough can topple down gods and remake the Planes themselves.
Remember that, primes.


Also, i took a look at what the 4th edition did to Planes, on the wiki. It is a ghastly sight to behold.
To pay for that... only so you can subvert it and ridicule it? Doesnt make any sense.
They surely wouldnt allow that and they would demand too big of a control over the design, etc, etc.

 

[Alex]

I find it interesting how much credit people give the Planescape setting for the games. Planescape is no doubt an interesting setting, and the fluff and "concepts" are very cool -- but in terms of actual rules, you may be surprised how different it is than your experience in Torment. I have never had the fortune of playing a real Planescape game, but a d&d guru whom I trust has the following to say about it:

It's important to remember that the Planescape universe is actually very stupid and that Torment was awesome in spite of that. It took very excellent writing to make a fucking Modron be a character that people didn't find inherently offensive. Don't forget that your compatriots also include a Githzerai, a race that until Torment was a widely hated race of NPCs with class levels - part of the incredibly insulting series of AD&D races who exist for no purpose other than to provide challenges reminiscent of fights against other parties without handing out as much treasure as that would imply.

Torment succeeded, but it had to play incredibly fast and loose with the canon to do so. Of your entire party only Annah is a legal character. The Nameless One is a Mary Stu, Falls From Grace is a Succubus with Cleric levels in Sigil, Nordom is a Chaotic Quadrone with class levels, Dak'kon required a complete rewrite of the Gith canon, Morte isn't even a D&D monster, and Ignus not only has a spellbook full of "spells I made up for this character", he's a completely made-up fire-man thingy.

Saying you want something "like" Torment is rather like saying you want lightning to strike. Absolutely none of the inputs that went in to Torment would lead any rational person to expect a result that wasn't shitty. Only really good writing coupled with blatant contempt for the source material produced a positive result.

Sorry, but I fail to understand what your friend finds bad about Planescape. At first glance, it seems he is complaining that isn't good because it isn't politically correct? What exactly are the racial issues he seems to be so opposed against? Also, Nordom seemed to be a normal rogue modron, though well written and with a bit of emphasis on computer like behavior. I mean, I can understand how people can find that off-putting if they are reminded about racial issues at every turn, but I expect such people would be able to understand how others don't really care about when these issues are just incidental.

Furthermore, the setting was at its best when giving you ideas to use, instead of trying to establish a canon. True, it wasn't really great how they tried to make important npcs who had a story arc, as these usually lead to railroading. Still, the setting had a good amount of interesting ideas strewn out throughout the books so that you can handpick them leaving what doesn't fit in your own game behind.

The idea is that you can, and should, make things unique in your own games. Of course the game setting isn't going to give you these unique things, or else, of course, they wouldn't be unique. I do think the original setting could have put a bit more emphasis on having the GM create unique things, rather than taking what is written on the books as how things should be and always are, but even Planescape supplements are full of this kind of thing. Uncaged has quite a few unusual npcs (including Fell, though I am not sure which came first here), while the Modron March's archivillain is pretty unique himself (if not particularly creative).

A lot of the strength in AD&D comes from taking stuff that, back in 1st edition, was there more as a mold to the ideas of the GM (like the planar descriptions) and adding a certain spin to those things, so they are much more defined and specific. Torment followed through with this idea wonderfully, but it isn't Torment that came up with it in first place.

 

[Moribund]

I find it interesting how much credit people give the Planescape setting for the games. Planescape is no doubt an interesting setting, and the fluff and "concepts" are very cool -- but in terms of actual rules, you may be surprised how different it is than your experience in Torment. I have never had the fortune of playing a real Planescape game, but a d&d guru whom I trust has the following to say about it:

It's important to remember that the Planescape universe is actually very stupid and that Torment was awesome in spite of that. It took very excellent writing to make a fucking Modron be a character that people didn't find inherently offensive. Don't forget that your compatriots also include a Githzerai, a race that until Torment was a widely hated race of NPCs with class levels - part of the incredibly insulting series of AD&D races who exist for no purpose other than to provide challenges reminiscent of fights against other parties without handing out as much treasure as that would imply.

Torment succeeded, but it had to play incredibly fast and loose with the canon to do so. Of your entire party only Annah is a legal character. The Nameless One is a Mary Stu, Falls From Grace is a Succubus with Cleric levels in Sigil, Nordom is a Chaotic Quadrone with class levels, Dak'kon required a complete rewrite of the Gith canon, Morte isn't even a D&D monster, and Ignus not only has a spellbook full of "spells I made up for this character", he's a completely made-up fire-man thingy.

Saying you want something "like" Torment is rather like saying you want lightning to strike. Absolutely none of the inputs that went in to Torment would lead any rational person to expect a result that wasn't shitty. Only really good writing coupled with blatant contempt for the source material produced a positive result.

Probably the dumbest post ever.

Setting for planescape is fantastic. The rules are nothing to do with the setting.

Githyanki and Githzerai ARE AS AWESOME AS IT GETS. MCA didn't make up that they were captive to Mind Flayers that's right from the setting, and how awesome is that? Not even Planescape but way back from unearthed arcana. It would be almost impossible to fail to make them interesting as hell, same with mindflayers, beholders, and the demons and devils. The elves and dwarves and overpowered archmagi and other stupid shit that didn't make an appearance in torment but are emphasized in FR are what kills DnD aside from the ever declining rules.

Forgotten Realms is 100% bullshit munching. Rest of DnD before then is awesome in every way. Your friend is complaining that the old rules won't let you play as some ridiculously munchkin character that has a vorpal silver sword and astral plane special abilities? Well they "solved" all that in FR and 3rd-4th edition. You can play as a half dragon half ogre sorceror if you want to.

 

[Murk]

Sorry, but I fail to understand what your friend finds bad about Planescape. At first glance, it seems he is complaining that isn't good because it isn't politically correct? What exactly are the racial issues he seems to be so opposed against? Also, Nordom seemed to be a normal rogue modron, though well written and with a bit of emphasis on computer like behavior. I mean, I can understand how people can find that off-putting if they are reminded about racial issues at every turn, but I expect such people would be able to understand how others don't really care about when these issues are just incidental.

No, it's not an issue of racism, you completely misunderstood that part -- it's that some races, like the Gith and the Drow were specifically made to counter popular player-character parties with abilities that mirror-matched your own and often they used equipment that would not work when removed from location; there's a term for this mirror-match in gaming but unfortunately I forget what its called.

His point was that Zerthimon is an interesting character, but that Githzerai alone are not an interesting race. Basically, he's crediting the game for doing something interesting with otherwise novel but not all that interesting source-material. When he said Modrons are offensive he meant the idea that a Modron would be an actual PC is ridiculous to the point where people would be mad at the suggestion, there's no PC or racism in the conventional sense, it's the idea that some monster races such as Modrons are silly one-dimensional beings and to make an actual character out of them requires good writing that is not common in the setting itself.

I won't respond to the rest as there's nothing to contest.

Moribund... ok, opinions n stuff. He never claimed MCA invented anything about the setting. Then again, I don't know why we'd credit MCA with inventing parts of the setting instead of the people who worked on the setting and Torment, but that's another point altogether.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Yeah, actually Planescape is really not stupid. There are stupid things, but nobody said it was a perfect thing. To claim that Torment was a good game despite the setting is beyond retarded, though.

 

[Murk]

Eh, opinions. I'm not gonna defend it as I'm not sure if the dude is 100% serious but, the point stands -- the game took HUGE liberties with the rules and the setting and the setting alone is not what made the game good, the game was good regardless. I fully hold the notion that a Planescape setting is not necessary for a game on par with Torment, but otherwise whatevs.

I've only read the source material and heard retrospective stories of actually playing the setting -- I do not have hands on experience myself so I won't bother chiming in. The whole "Annah being the only legal character" is funny to me, tho.

 

[Moribund]

the game took HUGE liberties with the rules

One, what do the rules matter to the setting? WTF?

Two, they are DnD rules not SETTING rules.

Three, those rules are there to keep things in balance with standard modules. No choosing drow or dragons as PCs to go on a standard module is kind of a must. But if you were going to have a DM who takes it into account you could play as a troll fighter if you want, or queen of the drow making a crusade into hell. That's what happened here.

And if you are playing a campaign in the big leagues like invading the abyss you almost have to do that to survive.

and the setting and the setting alone is not what made the game good

There was not much new to dak'kon, your friend is dead wrong there. I don't know what he was smoking but the gith are one of the more fascinating creatures in any game setting.

the game was good regardless.

So the whole idea of jumping planes, diametric opposition, blood war, curst and sigil, all that made no difference? And the way people talk? None of it?

I fully hold the notion that a Planescape setting is not necessary for a game on par with Torment

Of course not, but at the same time, where are they? Inventing a whole new mythos isn't easy. I'd be interested to know what puts the sizzle in the torment steak (or especially WHO) but I don't think it's easy to figure that out when it was a collaboration of a lot of people.

I've only read the source material and heard retrospective stories of actually playing the setting -- I do not have hands on experience myself so I won't bother chiming in. The whole "Annah being the only legal character" is funny to me, tho.

I guess so, but like I said, so what. You "can't" play deep gnomes either but people do it anyway if it makes sense. They just aren't standard PCs and not adjusted for standard modules.

 

[Alex]

No, it's not an issue of racism, you completely misunderstood that part -- it's that some races, like the Gith and the Drow were specifically made to counter popular player-character parties with abilities that mirror-matched your own and often they used equipment that would not work when removed from location; there's a term for this mirror-match in gaming but unfortunately I forget what its called.

Oh, I see. thanks, sorry for the misunderstanding. And yes, I agree that making up really bullshit explanations for the Drow equipment not working on the surface was, well, bullshit. Still, I find it interesting that eventually the bullshit explanation got expanded on, and it because a real limitation, that player could use to their advantage with careful maneuvering. I really liked that kind of thing in old D&D.

His point was that Zerthimon is an interesting character, but that Githzerai alone are not an interesting race. Basically, he's crediting the game for doing something interesting with otherwise novel but not all that interesting source-material.

I see. Indeed, Torment was the first game I saw that expanded on the concept of the Gith. I don't know how they were used in AD&D, since I never encountered them as a player.

When he said Modrons are offensive he meant the idea that a Modron would be an actual PC is ridiculous to the point where people would be mad at the suggestion, there's no PC or racism in the conventional sense, it's the idea that some monster races such as Modrons are silly one-dimensional beings and to make an actual character out of them requires good writing that is not common in the setting itself.

I dunno man. The idea behind rogue modrons as PCs seemed to be pretty much exemplified by Nordom to me. True, rogue modrons are supposed to be lawful, if I am not mistaken. But aside from that, you have a creature that has a strange, alien frame of mind (if a bit one dimensional) who is slowly separating itself from it. It slowly becomes more human, but also starts more or less as a blank slate, personality wise. At least, that is what I got from their description in the boxed set. Maybe it was a bit too short to convey this all well, but still...

I won't respond to the rest as there's nothing to contest.

Ok, sorry if I came out a bit belligerent like in my last post. I didn't mean to, but upon reading, I think I didn't express myself well enough.

 

[agentorange]

It's kind of unfair criticism, as I don't think there are any, or at least very very few settings that are just inherently interesting. It's always up to a talented writer to flesh out the nuances of the world and create some interesting individual characters to inhabit it. Of course the setting became "better" when Obsidian wrote some great characters to act in it, that's how every fucking setting ever becomes better. Look at the Dune novels written by Frank Herbert and the ones by his son and others: same setting, but the ones by Frank, in particular the first, are masterpieces whereas the the ones by his son are kind of garbage, exact same setting though. Same with Star Wars Expanded Universe, and plenty of other universes.

 

[Murk]

Moribund, I appreciate your interest but I can't be bothered to defend someone else's opinion when I don't even know the full extent of that opinion. I get where you're coming from, but again -- opinions and all that. I have not played the setting myself so all I can go off of are others' thoughts and the brief glimpse that Torment gives into it. Having said that, I found the setting great -- but I don't know how the setting feels in a real game when using the actual rules than in a game that takes a lot of liberties with the rules to present a specific experience.

Alex, I think you're agreeing with Frank in regards to Nordom, but again I can't read the guy's mind -- it's just the feel I get. Don't get me wrong, you weren't belligerent -- when I said there's nothing to contest I mean I have nothing against what you wrote.

 

[suejak]

Mikayel, I thought your friend had great insight.

Torment did make me love the Planescape setting, though. Whether a more by-the-book tale in the setting would suck or not, I don't know, because I've never seen or played one. I love the idea of creating things through belief, gods (and everything?) relying on belief to exist, portals hidden throughout Sigil, the Lady of Pain, the factions, the planes, planars, petitioners, proxies, etc. It's good shit.

Anyway, I don't want this game to be made without heavy MCA involvement. I also want Darren involved. I don't want to cast needless aspersions on poor Colin, but things like this make me choke:

"The first step in designing a new Torment story is to ask the primary question. I'm older than I was when I worked on Torment, and my questions now are different than they were. I have children now, and I look at the world through their eyes and through mine, and that's changed me - in fact, the intervening years have changed me so much that I have new answers for the central story in the original Torment. So now that I know what can change the nature of a man, I ask: What does one life matter? … and does it matter at all?" he scribbled

Anyone who can toss out a glib answer to a question like "What can change the nature of a man?" and suggest that he only found the question interesting because of youth and inexperience, does not earn my trust for a spiritual successor.

My gut says he just expressed himself poorly, but really... that's not a good sign either.

Ugh. Make your own game, fool.

 

[Haba]

Anyone who can toss out a glib answer to a question like "What can change the nature of a man?" and suggest that he only found the question interesting because of youth and inexperience, does not earn my trust for a spiritual successor.

He expressed himself perfectly well and in agreeable fashion. You didn't ask different questions ten years ago than you do today? MCA wasn't exactly vacuum sealed all those years either, you know...

 

[ironyuri]

I also don't know if going from being a single 20-something, to a 30-something father of children is a glib answer either.

That's like saying, LOL DOSTOYEVSKY DOSE NOTES FROM DA UNDERGROUND WEN U WUZ YUNG AND COOL Y DAT NOT IN CRIME UN PUNISHMUNT WEN U CHRISTFAG BUT STILL DEEP DOWN TOUCHED BY DAT NEETSHEEANISM OF DA YOUTHS

Not that y'know, you can compare this shit to that in a qualitative sense, but give me a fucking break.

 

[RK47]

is this where we circle jerk on torment 2?

 

[suejak]

I think what you mean is that he only means to say, "My experiences have given me new perspectives, and now I have other questions to ask." That's a common thing to say, and so you may be right. However, "Now that I know what can change the nature of a man..." is not a good way to go about conveying that sentiment, imo.

Writing quality is a subjective thing, and if you guys don't think he's incapable of leading the charge on this, then go nuts. I think he deserves a subordinate position, as an assistant writer. Or the lead writer on an unrelated game.

 

[RK47]

If you want to jerk on Torment 2, try the Project Eternity thread.

 

[hiver]

"The first step in designing a new Torment story is to ask the primary question. I'm older than I was when I worked on Torment, and my questions now are different than they were. I have children now, and I look at the world through their eyes and through mine, and that's changed me - in fact, the intervening years have changed me so much that I have new answers for the central story in the original Torment. So now that I know what can change the nature of a man, I ask: What does one life matter? … and does it matter at all?" he scribbled

Anyone who can toss out a glib answer to a question like "What can change the nature of a man?" and suggest that he only found the question interesting because of youth and inexperience, does not earn my trust for a spiritual successor.

My gut says he just expressed himself poorly, but really... that's not a good sign either.

Anyone who can blurt out such imbecile opinions only shows he actually didnt get the point and didnt understand Torment or its question.
i.e - youre a complete moron.

 

[suejak]

"The first step in designing a new Torment story is to ask the primary question. I'm older than I was when I worked on Torment, and my questions now are different than they were. I have children now, and I look at the world through their eyes and through mine, and that's changed me - in fact, the intervening years have changed me so much that I have new answers for the central story in the original Torment. So now that I know what can change the nature of a man, I ask: What does one life matter? … and does it matter at all?" he scribbled

Anyone who can toss out a glib answer to a question like "What can change the nature of a man?" and suggest that he only found the question interesting because of youth and inexperience, does not earn my trust for a spiritual successor.

My gut says he just expressed himself poorly, but really... that's not a good sign either.

Anyone who can blurt out such imbecile opinions only shows he actually didnt get the point and didnt understand Torment or its question.
i.e - youre a complete moron.

OH YEAH?!