Interview Chris Avellone Sugarbombed Interview, Part Two

[ilitarist]

Prior to nu-Doom, a publisher's decision not to give away early review copies was universally interpreted as a concession that the game was shit (i.e. that the best they can hope for is to scrape some money back from sales before the bad reviews get published). By starting the trend with a successful product, they've carved their own exception to that rule, allowing them to give or withhole early review copies as they please for all future titles.

They quickly lost this privilege. Dishonored 2 was released a technical shit. And it's obvious this review copy policy exist just to hide screw ups like that as long as possible.

 

[l3loodAngel]

MCA being positive about Bethesda is nothing new. He's been doing this for a long time already, long before he left Obsidian. So, while the way he's talking about Obsidian is new, the way he's talking about Bethesda really isn't.

Has he ever praised anything other than their marketing (which really is highly efficient) or their exploration (which is, de facto, enjoyed by a whole lot of people), though? I don't remember him ever praising their writing or reactivity or RPG systems or anything of that sort.

It's like youre too smart for this place. People will just cuck tag you... Therefore, you should just write in caps:"They took our RPGs!".

 

[Excidium II]

So does Tim Cain. He bought the CE of Fallout 3 and everything.

 

[l3loodAngel]

You didn't really praise the story, reactivity, exploration or quest design.

I wouldn't do that for any of the Infinity Engine games either. They are what they are. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

OK. So you praised the one thing Obsidian sucks big time (In POE case it's main weakness due to reasons discussed to death), while you couldn't force yourself to compliment the things Obsi was tradittionally good at. You do understand that it smells like shit on multiple levels...

 

[Roguey]

OK. So you praised the one thing Obsidian sucks big time (In POE case it's main weakness due to reasons discussed to death), while you couldn't force yourself to compliment the things Obsi was tradittionally good at. You do understand that it smells like shit on multiple levels...

Josh focused on building up gameplay first and succeeded.

Tyranny was the one that put narrative and reactivity ahead of everything else and turned out to be a clunker to anyone who isn't an Obsidian fanboy or people like Anthony Burch.

 

[l3loodAngel]

OK. So you praised the one thing Obsidian sucks big time (In POE case it's main weakness due to reasons discussed to death), while you couldn't force yourself to compliment the things Obsi was tradittionally good at. You do understand that it smells like shit on multiple levels...

Josh focused on building up gameplay first and succeeded.

Tyranny was the one that put narrative and reactivity ahead of everything else and turned out to be a clunker to anyone who isn't an Obsidian fanboy or people like Anthony Burch.

That's a love letter to Josh than, rather than a review. The gameplay was bland even by i.e. standards and I not sure, what you define as succeeding...

 

[Roguey]

That's a love letter to Josh than, rather than a review. The gameplay was bland even by i.e. standards and I not sure, what you define as succeeding...

I listed everything I found fun.

(also you haven't played the game since 1.x)

 

[l3loodAngel]

That's a love letter to Josh than, rather than a review. The gameplay was bland even by i.e. standards and I not sure, what you define as succeeding...

I listed everything I found fun.

(also you haven't played the game since 1.x)

You see I cannot remember if I did and that's the problem!

 

[Prime Junta]

In re the Sawyer >>><<< Avellone thing... I've been looking pretty hard and I can't find a lot of evidence for it. It's clear they're very different personalities, have different tastes in writing, and have some -- but nowhere near as big as some people(TM) like to portray them -- differences in design philosophy. The only on-record instance I can think of them disagreeing on design has to do with companions -- Chris feels one of their primary functions is ego-stroking the player, Josh... doesn't.

Buuut... Josh keeps giving Chris credit for stuff he's done whenever somebody asks him about something related to it on his blog and doesn't seem to consider him in any way Someone Who Should Not Be Named, and Chris keeps on keeping on about his problems with the way Obsidian is managed. I.e. if any of his barbs are aimed at Josh they're so expertly veiled that someone who hasn't been at the company can't easily tell.

 

[hpstg]

In re the Sawyer >>><<< Avellone thing... I've been looking pretty hard and I can't find a lot of evidence for it. It's clear they're very different personalities, have different tastes in writing, and have some -- but nowhere near as big as some people(TM) like to portray them -- differences in design philosophy. The only on-record instance I can think of them disagreeing on design has to do with companions -- Chris feels one of their primary functions is ego-stroking the player, Josh... doesn't.

Buuut... Josh keeps giving Chris credit for stuff he's done whenever somebody asks him about something related to it on his blog and doesn't seem to consider him in any way Someone Who Should Not Be Named, and Chris keeps on keeping on about his problems with the way Obsidian is managed. I.e. if any of his barbs are aimed at Josh they're so expertly veiled that someone who hasn't been at the company can't easily tell.

Faggots need to understand that people can have their differences and still be proper gentlemen about it.

 

[Fairfax]

In re the Sawyer >>><<< Avellone thing... I've been looking pretty hard and I can't find a lot of evidence for it. It's clear they're very different personalities, have different tastes in writing, and have some -- but nowhere near as big as some people(TM) like to portray them -- differences in design philosophy. The only on-record instance I can think of them disagreeing on design has to do with companions -- Chris feels one of their primary functions is ego-stroking the player, Josh... doesn't.

Buuut... Josh keeps giving Chris credit for stuff he's done whenever somebody asks him about something related to it on his blog and doesn't seem to consider him in any way Someone Who Should Not Be Named, and Chris keeps on keeping on about his problems with the way Obsidian is managed. I.e. if any of his barbs are aimed at Josh they're so expertly veiled that someone who hasn't been at the company can't easily tell.

Chris: wild, expressive characters x Sawyer: dry, mundane.
Chris approaches themes as questions for the players. Sawyer often uses allegories and his personal views.
As Project Lead or Lead Designer, Chris always tried to salvage as much content as possible. Sawyer is fond of cutting anything that might seem problematic. Ulysses is a good example.
Back in NWN2, Sawyer assigned all companions to MCA. Chris inherited a bunch of character concepts he didn't like, and called it a "terrible experience".
Chris had 3/4 of his content cut from PoE and said he didn't enjoy working on it.
In a presentation about hierarchy in game development, Chris criticized devs who take on multiple leading roles. Sawyer did that in FNV and PoE, and IIRC Aliens as well.
Chris stopped praising or mentioning Sawyer by name in interviews after 2014 or so.

I do believe it's easy to see they don't really mesh well. Chris worked under Sawyer on 4 released games, and he got a lot of his content cut in 3 out of 4 times, 2 of which he called bad experiences. Still, I never said they have a rivalry or hate each other, I was only explaining why people find the idea entertaining.
If there was any actual bad blood between the two, I don't see why Chris wouldn't criticize him along with the owners in interviews. The presentation may be one of the rare instances where he criticized Sawyer, but he still avoided mentioning any specific person or project.

 

[Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd]

While Chris can criticize Fergus using an obscure term 'higher management', it is hard for him to criticize Sawyer without mentioning him by name or at least by a very specific description which has a definite reference. And as you can see Chris avoids using definite references. I guess his reasons are either ethical or legal.

 

[Fairfax]

While Chris can criticize Fergus using an obscure term 'higher management', it is hard for him to criticize Sawyer without mentioning him by name or at least by a very specific description which has a definite reference. And as you can see Chris avoids using definite references. I guess his reasons are either ethical or legal.

Agreed, but I also think there's a big difference in his relationship with the owners and with Sawyer. We already know some of the fuckery by the owners, but there's nothing to suggest Sawyer ever meant any harm. It's just that when two co-workers don't mesh well like that, the one on the receiving end is much more likely to feel frustrated.

 

[Rev]

Chris: wild, expressive characters x Sawyer: dry, mundane.
Chris approaches themes as questions for the players. Sawyer often uses allegories and his personal views.
As Project Lead or Lead Designer, Chris always tried to salvage as much content as possible. Sawyer is fond of cutting anything that might seem problematic. Ulysses is a good example.
Back in NWN2, Sawyer assigned all companions to MCA. Chris inherited a bunch of character concepts he didn't like, and called it a "terrible experience".
Chris had 3/4 of his content cut from PoE and said he didn't enjoy working on it.
In a presentation about hierarchy in game development, Chris criticized devs who take on multiple leading roles. Sawyer did that in FNV and PoE, and IIRC Aliens as well.
Chris stopped praising or mentioning Sawyer by name in interviews after 2014 or so.

I do believe it's easy to see they don't really mesh well. Chris worked under Sawyer on 4 released games, and he got a lot of his content cut in 3 out of 4 times, 2 of which he called bad experiences. Still, I never said they have a rivalry or hate each other, I was only explaining why people find the idea entertaining.
If there was any actual bad blood between the two, I don't see why Chris wouldn't criticize him along with the owners in interviews. The presentation may be one of the rare instances where he criticized Sawyer, but he still avoided mentioning any specific person or project.

Some of your points are a little far stretched, for example MCA has often said he deeply regret not having cut a lot of content in KotOR II to save the game from becoming a terrible mess in the ending and full of bugs, Sawyer just applied that lesson and he probably had solid reasons to cut most of the stuff he deleted from their games.
Also, JES only inherited NWN2 later on, so it may have been the previous director assigning all those companions to Avellone.
You're right about the hierarchy talk in which some of his criticisms seemed directed toward Josh but we can't know for sure, beyond that Sawyer doesn't seem to have a problem mentioning MCA or giving him credit for characters, quests or ideas and Chris has been mostly talking shit at the managers, so I agree with your last piece: they may not be very close but they don't necessarily hate each other or anything worthy of all the Codex drama they received.

While Chris can criticize Fergus using an obscure term 'higher management', it is hard for him to criticize Sawyer without mentioning him by name or at least by a very specific description which has a definite reference. And as you can see Chris avoids using definite references. I guess his reasons are either ethical or legal.

That's true but MCA didn't have a problem with mentioning Chris Parker directly on these very forums, so it's not like he's beyond making names or anything, and he wasn't exactly praising his former co-owner.

 

[Fairfax]

Some of your points are a little far stretched, for example MCA has often said he deeply regret not having cut a lot of content in KotOR II to save the game from becoming a terrible mess in the ending and full of bugs, Sawyer just applied that lesson and he probably had solid reasons to cut most of the stuff he deleted from their games.

I didn't say it was a point of contention, just different philosophies (which PJ disputed).

Assuming the content is good, both sides always have solid reasons. I'd say KOTOR2 was a special case because of the verbal agreement debacle, but it's not unreasonable to criticize him for it. On the other hand, I don't think anyone here would argue that MCA's approach didn't pay off in PS:T. For example, the game almost didn't have companion dialogue. Sawyer's approach is basically "work with what you have". Had he been in charge of PS:T, he probably would've cut all companions and let the player to create the rest of the party instead.

Also, JES only inherited NWN2 later on, so it may have been the previous director assigning all those companions to Avellone.

Chris joined NWN2 late in its development. It's one of the reasons he said it "almost broke him", he didn't have a lot of time to write them.

 

[Mustawd]

It's 2016 and white people are STILL defending PoE

It's 2016 and people are STILL discussing PoE in EVERY fucking thread.

It's no surprise it comes up every once in a while. It'd be like if you won the lottery, but your dog accidentally ate the ticket and shit it out. 5 years from then you'd be having a random conversation, remember the lotto ticket, and yell, "Goddamn fucking stupid ass shit dog!" for no apparent reason. That's PoE.

 

[DeepOcean]

PoE was the moment it became visible that unfortunately RPGs as they used to be done is dead, there is no crowdfunding that can fix the destruction of a culture, there is no reason for optimism anymore, it wasn't only big and evil publishers but developers too could be as cynical as them and many of those fuckers only cry victim because they wish they were on the same position of a Bethesda or EA and they are not, it has nothing to do with gamming as a hobby and building something interesting, sticking to a vision, creating games focused on vision, nope, just money, money and money. The old RPG guys like Chris and others or are relicts from the past marginalized or are burn out and really not wishing to do anything just waiting for retirement and the new designers are a bunch of mediocre yes men that don't bring anything of value more than porsuing their companies financial aims and design games with only that goal.

Boy, it took decades to empty Hollywood of any pretense of internal life beyond pure rent seeking, same happened with music, pretty interesting how the rent seeking behavior dominated gamming so much faster, maybe because gamming already was born on a culture that had no values anymore, so the only thing left is rent seeking and the next popamole virtual hamburger for the zombies to eat before next year and next year, next year. Chris seems burn out, so Bethesda is the safe bet but that means we can't hope for anything of quality on the future from him. Funny how we had a whole host of RPG nerd designers that created so much stuff and build things with value that inspired this very site that just left a complete vacum.

 

[Mustawd]

The end is nigh.

 

[Fenix]

PoE was the moment it became visible that unfortunately RPGs as they used to be done is dead, there is no crowdfunding that can fix the destruction of a culture, there is no reason for optimism anymore, it wasn't only big and evil publishers but developers too could be as cynical as them and many of those fuckers only cry victim because they wish they were on the same position of a Bethesda or EA and they are not, it has nothing to do with gamming as a hobby and building something interesting, sticking to a vision, creating games focused on vision, nope, just money, money and money. The old RPG guys like Chris and others or are relicts from the past marginalized or are burn out and really not wishing to do anything just waiting for retirement and the new designers are a bunch of mediocre yes men that don't bring anything of value more than porsuing their companies financial aims and design games with only that goal.

Boy, it took decades to empty Hollywood of any pretense of internal life beyond pure rent seeking, same happened with music, pretty interesting how the rent seeking behavior dominated gamming so much faster, maybe because gamming already was born on a culture that had no values anymore, so the only thing left is rent seeking and the next popamole virtual hamburger for the zombies to eat before next year and next year, next year. Chris seems burn out, so Bethesda is the safe bet but that means we can't hope for anything of quality on the future from him. Funny how we had a whole host of RPG nerd designers that created so much stuff and build things with value that inspired this very site that just left a complete vacum.

I have never heard more precise words. Gold, platinum and other precious metals are equivalents of your words.

 

[Axie]

Games are here with problem similar to film; they are entertainment and only maybe art. Also in games it's harder for them to transcend to art as it requires to be product of "one mind with vision" and "creative plural" who delivers on it.

(...) unfortunately RPGs as they used to be done is dead.

I would say fortunately. If you go out of your way to re-create that specific look and atmosphere, camera and lenses, film and processing of Tarkovsky's Stalker, you won't become new Tarkovsky. Different time, technology, different era, psychology... In best case you will make one-hit-wonder. In worst — you're a fool who managed to fundraise enough money playing on nostalgia.

Film directors in industry of today (same as top gaming people) are mostly healthy life, tofu green tea biking and hiking idiots or decadent blow, hookers and endless clubbing retards. What kind of story these people have to convey to me that is interesting and worthy of listening / watching / playing? Only a few are exceptions.

RPGs and gaming in general is just about to enter its renaissance period. Tech is becoming available and cheap and allows one/small team sizes to create. There will be more shit than ever, but more diamonds will shine.

Just don't expect Guys named Todd or Josh to deliver.

Now let's wait for Chris to do his magic. And today today it is possible for him to be the author.

 

[Fenix]

Axie I said similiar thing, but I did it on another basis - in update to Copper Dream (I think) I said that there is no hope that old dinosaurus will made something of value, like they did before, the only hope is 1-2 man team of young and passonate. The only exeption is ITS I think.