Civilization VI - Now available, so you can sink all your free time into it

[IncendiaryDevice]

I guess it will depend a lot on what you define as complexity...

If you think Religion in Civ4 is a complexity rather than a perfunctory non-entity then I guess we'll argue for eternity.

 

[ArchAngel]

And that italian-french octomum.

i don't understand all the scandal for an italian person leading france.
napoleon was italian too.

I beg to differ good Sir. Nappi wasn't italian. Genoa had pawned Corsica off to Frenchland before he was born

still genetically italian master race.

There is nothing genetically master about Italians. They are so pathetic they are not even called Romans anymore.
When Italians say they are lovers and not warriors, it is more true for them than any other nation/people in the world.

 

[sser]

Civ4 + BtS is by far the most complex game in the series. More mechanics, by far the most 'technical' plays in the entire series (slingshots, chopping, slavery abuse/happiness management, etc.), and it has none of 5/6's coddling (cities that defend themselves and retarded AI that can't handle hexes).

I guess it will depend a lot on what you define as complexity...

If you think Religion in Civ4 is a complexity rather than a perfunctory non-entity then I guess we'll argue for eternity.

Religion in Civ4 is the biggest diplo-modifier and diplomacy is literally one of the win conditions

Hell, adopting the wrong religion can lose you the game on the higher difficulties where diplo-management is the key to survival.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

on the higher difficulties

Always with the 'on higher difficulties'... same with any of them. So they implemented Religion solely as tool for people who only play the higher levels? Yeah... right. Diplomacy is a difficult thing to master in most of them, heck a lot of 'expert' players of Civ 3 don't even know how to stabilise Diplomacy in Civ 3 and then wrongly assume it has no mechanic to that end. Still, since your post only references Civs 4-6 I'm guessing you're exactly the kind of person I was referring to. And yeah, I'm aware any post I make on this will guarantee me the wrath of all the Civ 4 fanboys like it's some kind of political debate, and yet every single mention of 'complexity' with regards to Civ 4 always end up in a caveat of 'on the higher difficuties', well shit, practically every game ever made is 'more complex' if you play on insane or whatever equivalent difficulty setting and as regards to difficulty settings I've already stated Prince difficulty in Civ4 is child's play compared to Prince difficulty in previous games, which was my (ignored) point.

 

[Spectacle]

Anyone who thinks that civ4, (or even civ5 or civ 6) is less complex than civ1 has lost their mind. Civ1 has much less going on than civ4, and the systems in place are more basic than in the later iterations.
You can argue that civ1's elegant design and lack of unnecessary crud makes it the better game, but it's cetainly not more complex.

 

[sser]

on the higher difficulties

Always with the 'on higher difficulties'... same with any of them. So they implemented Religion solely as tool for people who only play the higher levels? Yeah... right. Diplomacy is a difficult thing to master in most of them, heck a lot of 'expert' players of Civ 3 don't even know how to stabilise Diplomacy in Civ 3 and then wrongly assume it has no mechanic to that end. Still, since your post only references Civs 4-6 I'm guessing you're exactly the kind of person I was referring to. And yeah, I'm aware any post I make on this will guarantee me the wrath of all the Civ 4 fanboys like it's some kind of political debate, and yet every single mention of 'complexity' with regards to Civ 4 always end up in a caveat of 'on the higher difficuties', well shit, practically every game ever made is 'more complex' if you play on insane or whatever equivalent difficulty setting and as regards to difficulty settings I've already stated Prince difficulty in Civ4 is child's play compared to Prince difficulty in previous games, which was my (ignored) point.

Nice pivoting away from your own nonsense.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

No pivoting, it's my points that are being 'pivoted'. Anyway, move to the new thread about this http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ation-iv-is-the-most-complex-civ-game.111706/ and put your money where your mouth is, etc etc etc

 

[sser]

Not to be a dick or anything, but if you take one of the biggest game mechanics there is and state it's a "perfunctory non-entity", then I just don't see much point in talking to you about the game

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

It is. You're only comeback is "on higher difficulties it has a diplomatic function". The previous Civ game had a complex Diplomatic algorithm, so complex even a lot of experts don't know how to fully use it, Civ 4 has Religion, which is just a big obvious beacon saying "They'll like you more if you have the same religion" - What? Really? Noooooo, never would have figured that out using complex thought, what with it being an obvious beacon an all. So Religion made Diplomacy more obvious? Why is that more complex? If they added a mechanic where you could marry your wife off to another AI Civ's leader would that be more 'complex' or more 'obvious'?

I knew you didn't actually have any citations for these claims, it's just fanboyism isn't it, you can't actually put your argument into words that mean anything beyond "because I say so" can you...

 

[Snorkack]

Civ1 was the most complex Civ game

had a complex Diplomatic algorithm

in-your-face UI

dual core Hard Drives

Your shit's giving me the headaches, for real man

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Your shit's giving me the headaches, for real man

Your misquotes are giving me brainrot.

Feel free to actually post reasons... (in the relevant thread)

 

[coldcrow]

You are insane. It is pretty much established that the AI in any Civ-like can only be a challenging adversary on monarch and upwards. Of course you don't feel the negative impacts of Isabella going medieval on your ass when you can use your superior human wits in an equal ressource situation. Either you struck preemptively anyways, or just roll them over with your superior economy. On higher diffs this will backfire, as they usually have too many units for you to chew through, which will in return assign a much higher importance to that diplo modifier and its governing systems. Suddenly it may become important to spread religion, beeline for a rel tech, or just give in and adopt Bella's religious circlejerk.

Complexity in previous civs came from hidden mechanics. Not a bad thing, per se.
I agree on one point, though: Civ4 became too formulaic. If that was your point, anyways.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Complexity in previous civs came from hidden mechanics. Not a bad thing, per se.

I'm yet to even hear how people are defining 'complexity' in the first place. Do they mean 'more stuff happening, even if it's pretty pointless fluff' or do they mean 'it requires more complex thought to achieve an aim' or do they just mean 'it's more difficult'? Or maybe even something utterly bizzare no-one else has even thought of?

 

[coldcrow]

Civ4's fault is that everything is well documented and traceable. Be it diplo modifiers, combat strength mods, thorough economical overview through functional UI and a good encyclopedia. Mods even elaborated on that formula and now you have basically the whole game systems laid out in front of you without needing to consult a manual.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Civ4's fault is that everything is well documented and traceable. Be it diplo modifiers, combat strength mods, thorough economical overview through functional UI and a good encyclopedia. Mods even elaborated on that formula and now you have basically the whole game systems laid out in front of you without needing to consult a manual.

So that makes it less complex...? Or more complex?

 

[coldcrow]

Chess is fucking well documented too. Is it not complex?

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Chess is fucking well documented too. Is it not complex?

You tell me...

 

[MilesBeyond]

You are, of course, referring to me.

No? I've never even heard of you before.

 

[Mr. Pink]

Armies/Armadas (the military units that are actually 2-3 copies of the same unit stuck together into a more powerful unit) cost less gold than the gold you get by selling/deleting them.

I just bought a Destroyer Armada for 6400 and sold it for 9700. Unlimited times. In one turn.

 

[rezaf]

May I interrupt your musings about what constitutes complexity with another stupid question: Is there a way to tell whether or not a city has fresh water access?
And building on that, a way to tell the effects of said access or lack thereof?

 

[sser]

May I interrupt your musings about what constitutes complexity with another stupid question: Is there a way to tell whether or not a city has fresh water access?
And building on that, a way to tell the effects of said access or lack thereof?

Talking about Civ6?

If so, fresh water is any lake or river tile. You get +3 housing for that.

 

[Lone Wolf]

No access to fresh water means no bonus housing, and growth takes forever.

 

[ArchAngel]

Seems the best way to win Civ6 is to chop down all forests around your cities and to build units and then sell them for lots of cash. So if you settle your city in area with not a lot of forests around, you are screwed.

 

[kris]

I guess it will depend a lot on what you define as complexity...

If you think Religion in Civ4 is a complexity rather than a perfunctory non-entity then I guess we'll argue for eternity.

i am sure we would. But I just pointed out that you made a long post about complexity in the cIv-series, but you didn't actually say anything about why you think so.

Now you added a line to dismiss the features in one game in the series. But what makes Civ the most complex? civ2 is basically just an improved and in most aspects more complex version of civ1.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

i am sure we would. But I just pointed out that you made a long post about complexity in the cIv-series, but you didn't actually say anything about why you think so.

Now you added a line to dismiss the features in one game in the series. But what makes Civ the most complex? civ2 is basically just an improved and in most aspects more complex version of civ1.

I didn't say Civ1 was the most complex, I said I wouldn't make an argument that it wasn't because I didn't know enough about it - reading comprehension. Many have now stated Civ4 is somehow the 'best' or 'most complex' or whatever else point about Civ4 but supply zero actual content on why they believe this beyond the usual fanboy crap. What I believe is the most complex Civ game is fucking irrelevant, I haven't claimed any of them are 'the best' or 'most complex' - reading comprehension.