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CKII is released.

Brinko

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http://kingofathousandworlds.com/2014/08/paradox-fan-gathering-cologne-2014-summary/
Crusader Kings 2: Charlemagne
This is the beefier part of the post, in part because Paradox haven’t actually put up a detailed release announcement of the game yet, and in part because I actually got to talk to a couple of the devs about it: Doomdark and Johan Lerstrom. Rather than an overview, I’m going to break this down into the parts I’ve already mentioned on the forums, and everything else I forgot to mention.

Tribal Holdings
So, the first thing that I accosted Doomdark about was the suitability of feudal mechanics to represent even the Old Gods start date, let alone the newer, earlier start. In return, I was told about a new type of holding that hopes to rectify this: ‘tribal’ holdings.

Tribal holdings (though I don’t know if that will be their actual in game names) sound like they will be much like castles, bishoprics and cities, although Doomdark also put trade posts in that list, which leads me to believe they might be an over-holding of some sort (to prevent the awkwardness of having one holding change to another later in the game). Essentially tribal holdings will represent lands that aren’t properly fortified yet, more owned by virtue of people living there than by people actually building towns etc.

An interesting aspect of tribal holdings, as Johan later expanded on them to me, is that vassals who are ‘tribal’ (presumably a new title equivalent to count, based on your holding type) don’t provide levies in the way that a feudal vassal does. Instead, a tribal vassal must be called to arms, like an ally. In this way, your vassal management becomes much more important, and vassal ties are much looser. A king can only gain power if he is respected enough by his vassals, even more so than currently, and a vassal maintains full control of his own armies, making war much more scattered.
I don’t know if I can emphasise how much I really, really love this idea. The reign of a king in this era was much more loose than CK2 currently has it (and even later than the 1066 start really), and the idea of a king having to scrounge support from vassals rather than just expect them to provide levies feels much more in keeping. In addition, with the elective gavelkind succession, the idea of a king having very little power over his subjects is expanded.

Elective Gavelkind

Sometimes, Empires can get a bit blobby

Which leads us neatly into another interesting new feature, designed for the breaking up of blobs: elective gavelkind. Empires being too blobby has always been a big concern, and even more so with the introduction of a start date that may very well include the entirety of Francia as one huge empire. At least one response to this, which also adds to the susceptibility of tribal civilisations falling apart without a leader, is elective gavelkind.

From what I can tell, elective gavelkind is much like what it sounds: it’s a cross between tanistry and gavelkind. The new ruler must be selected from your dynasty, but I believe that other dynasty members will also get titles, as gavelkind suggests. In addition, upon succession, some vassals may be given the option to become independent, no war involved, much like the decadence mechanics are supposed to work.

The exact nature of this hasn’t been settled on yet, since they’re still testing it out, but it may be based on the power of the vassal relative to liege, the opinion of the vassal, or perhaps even a choice that everyone is given regardless, and then acted on appropriately. In any case, this serves to make early empires more likely to break apart, and perhaps constantly try and put themselves back together, in a way that current succession laws don’t.

My only hesitation with this is that it will probably still be too easy to get a big mid-late game empire going. Once elective gavelkind is gone, I’m not sure what will be used to try and break apart large empires that have formed under primogeniture, or even normal elective. So, while this should solve the early Karling problem, I don’t think it will do anything for the HRE, or for later game blobs. We shall see however: blobbing is clearly something in the forefront of the minds at Paradox, so hopefully this will also be settled. One possible solution is:

Vassal Limit
A new limit, much like the current demesne limit, will be imposed upon rulers with the introduction of the Charlemagne DLC. This limit does exactly what it suggests: it imposes a soft-cap on the number of independent vassals you can have in your realm before you start taking penalties. To offset this, you will be encouraged to hand out more duchy titles, and perhaps even kingdoms, as your empire becomes too large for you to manage each vassal yourself.

This is a great idea, and as unfortunate as it may be to have to impose rules like this, rather than providing encouragement for playing the game in a certain way, I think it fits in very well with the current demesne limit. It makes sense that if you can only manage so many holdings yourself, you can logically only manage so many vassals as well before you become stretched thin. This is why vassals exist in the first place.

In addition, this adds a new balancing factor to crown law. As crown law gets higher, and the monarch begins to exercise more direct control over his vassals, the vassal limit will decrease, so that more titles need to be handed out. This means that going up to absolute crown law will not only make your vassals like you less, but also encourage you to give those vassals more power as well, to help maintain the laws you impose.

As said before, I very much hope this will be the way to make empires crumble. With low crown laws, empires can be sprawling, but somewhat weak, with fewer levies to help defend against outside threats and even factions, and less control over their vassals. As crown law increases, larger vassals will come into play, curbing the power of monarchs who they don’t like, making factions more likely to spawn. Ultimately, this may see more independence factions firing and being successful. Fingers crossed.

Seasons
Finally, seasonal changes, similar to EU4. I think everyone has been expecting something like this for a while, and I guess that Paradox decided to just throw it in there now. Seasons should have an effect upon attrition in provinces, making war in winter a more dangerous affair, and there was a hint that weather might effect combat, perhaps by changing terrain. Whether this will just affect military educations (fights better in snowy conditions) or whether there will be a weather effect on combat I’m not sure, but in either case this is a change I don’t have much to say on other than it’s there.

Overall, I think that might be all the information I got out of developers. I didn’t have my journalism hat on at the time, so I didn’t chase up nearly as many questions as I should have done, but hopefully that puts some fears to rest that people may have had. I know that I started off very disappointed in the idea of a further timeline extension, but having discussed with the devs, this sounds much more thought out than I gave them credit for. Here’s hoping that everything goes as well as it does in my imagination.

TL;DR new tribal holdings, new succession law, limit on vassals. Let's see how this totally fucks up the AI and makes them collapse into a black hole
 

RK47

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Oh, man, now I can play the exact same gameplay that I have been playing since 2012 for 100 more in game years!!! Best DLC yet.

:bravo:

Count your blessings man.
After long hours invested in trying to experience a RPG wargame in RTK X, I'm starting to appreciate the minimization of micro in CK2. There were literally too much tedium in managing a city, let alone a kingdom when you have so many decisions to make as compared to the free-flowing pain-free nature of decision making in CK2.

You don't even have to feed your troops. All you gotta watch is morale and income.
 

Kashmir Slippers

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I'd like a bit more tedium in CK2. It doesn't matter what person I play, which religion they follow, or where on the map I start, virtually every game reaches the same point where I have a strong, defensible kingdom/empire, and I just spend the last 200 years of the scenario at the fastest speed hoping something will happen. It gets old after a while, and I don't always want to conquer all of Europe.

I have posted about it before, but virtually all of the DLC's just lengthen the timeline, extend the map, or let you play different religions with slight UI changes but the same core gameplay, and this one seems par for the course. I just wish that Paradox would do a DLC that addressed some of the problems with the intrinsic gameplay instead of slapping new things on the side.
 

Brinko

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To be honest the vassal limit feels to me like Paradox have decided that people have bitched about the realm being boring because it's so easy to pacify vassals that they are forcing you to make king titles to create artificial instability through an annoying mechanic. It doesn't really solve the problem of things being boring in peace time but have really just mandated making content vassals only and going diplo education.
 

Kattze

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The next DLC is disappointing. The only feature that I like is the tribal holdings, the rest doesn't seem to justify another $20 DLC.
 

RK47

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rk47 playing ck2 chinese edition
bestgameever.jpg
 

Konjad

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I welcome the new changes and it's nice we will have winter (finally! I always wondered wtf were they thinking making winter offensives so effective), but for the DLC itself... I feel it's going to be Aztecs/RoI again - I'll get it for -75%/-66% just because I want my game to have more options, but I won't feel an urge to get it before the sale. Still, I'll await official announcements with it, but I am not very excited. I really thought the DLC will be about theocracies and popes, they disappointed me a bit with Charlemagne...
 

Brinko

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Do the Mongols invade India pretty hard or to they travel west? I ask because I have rarely had problems with the Mongols by lucking out and they just stop right when they get to me and internal politics rips them apart so I end up fight 1/10 of their total forces and wiping them out completely.
 

RK47

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Do the Mongols invade India pretty hard or to they travel west? I ask because I have rarely had problems with the Mongols by lucking out and they just stop right when they get to me and internal politics rips them apart so I end up fight 1/10 of their total forces and wiping them out completely.
Flip a coin. Sometimes that's just how the horde rolls.
I've had Mongols who never reached Eastern Europe and just conquer the whole Persian while at another game they won't stop past Russia and never even reached the middle east.
 

Brinko

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Well I have never gotten to the Mongols post-India and the farthest I've ever seen them get was Kiev. By that time the 2 hordes are killing each other or attrition has killed their stacks whenever that kicks in and I get invaded by some pitiful band which I wipe away and rebels engulf them.

Really not looking for ward to fighting them either way as taking Punjab from the Ghaznavids was a nightmare with all their horse archers.
 

Konjad

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rk47 playing ck2 chinese edition
bestgameever.jpg
You didn't even turn off the "action centre" (or whatever it's called in English) in the taskbar. What the fuck is wrong with you, you sicko.

Also, the oicture is obviously fake because it's the pr0n that is on top "layer", you can't play a game in the background as keyboard input would go into the Windows Media Player.

HA! Caught! Kodex Kool Points -2 for the two above reasons. +1 for making a joke though.
 

Abelian

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All these DLC's have me asking: what on earth will Paradox do with CK3?

After adding all this additional content to the game, CK3 will probably feel like a downgrade. It's like getting all The Sims expansions, they buying The Sims 2 and finding out lots of items and careers missing, or going from HoMM 3 to 4 and finding they cut the number of units in half and eliminated a couple of factions.
 

Tytus

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Vassal Limit and Tribal mechanics sound great, but the elective gavelkind things seems a little strange. It could actually work if for example the elective gavelking had also senior election. Meaning not only they choose what titles go to who, but also they choose a senior, de facto next ruler that they will be vassals to. Then after the election they should get a decision to honor the power of the senior or not, and the senior on the other hand should get a decision to declare war or not if a vassal decides to go independent. Senior would of course call in all levies, but because the vassals would be autonomous they could ignore the call to war with much lesser penalty then normal on the basis that this is an internal issue, but couldn't ignore call to war without normal penalty if the war was against a foreing threat. Also elevtive gavelkind should've fixed, unchangable lowest crown authority to simulate that - yes they are vassals of the Senior, but can do almost anything they want, like fight each other.

This would be actually somewhat historically accurate. Becasue this would similar to what happaned to Poland in 1138. Fragmentation of the country into 5 pieces, which one was a Seniorate Province that was suppose to have a degree of control over other parts. But the princes almost instantly started ignoring the Senior, yet when the outside threat presented itself they usually banded together. Like for example with Mongol Incursion into Poland.

The mechanic I wrote above is probably stupid and innacurate - I just wanted to give same example that elective gavelkind should have entirely new mechanic of ruling the country and not be just another form of succession law that changes little and which you can get rid of pretty fast.
 

Tytus

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All these DLC's have me asking: what on earth will Paradox do with CK3?

After adding all this additional content to the game, CK3 will probably feel like a downgrade. It's like getting all The Sims expansions, they buying The Sims 2 and finding out lots of items and careers missing, or going from HoMM 3 to 4 and finding they cut the number of units in half and eliminated a couple of factions.

Or it's like going from Tropico 4 with all DLC to vanilla Tropico 5 that feels barebone. Or like going from Civ 4 with all expansion into vanilla Civ 5. Or like going from EU3 with all expansions to vanilla EU4, or.....etc. It's just the nature of this type of business model. The next installment will always feel like a downgrade for a period of time.
 
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Well it seems I'm in the minority as I hate the sound of the new vassal limit. Because people didn't play feudalism the exact way Paradox wants (and the way that it wasn't actually done in much of the map and time frame of the game) they add more artificial limits to force them to instead of making their system better and more efficient then the alternative. Like vassals finally treating realm laws as laws and not mild suggestions to ignore for some stupid default.
 

RK47

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slow. cant be bothered to play ironman with the slow saves.
 

RK47

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rk47 playing ck2 chinese edition
bestgameever.jpg
You didn't even turn off the "action centre" (or whatever it's called in English) in the taskbar. What the fuck is wrong with you, you sicko.

Also, the oicture is obviously fake because it's the pr0n that is on top "layer", you can't play a game in the background as keyboard input would go into the Windows Media Player.

HA! Caught! Kodex Kool Points -2 for the two above reasons. +1 for making a joke though.
o rly
ohyeoflilfaith.jpg
 

Konjad

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Query: Is CK2 slower after India being added in the map? Because I heard they did some optimisations, but I don't know if that compensated or even helped make the game overrall faster. Because of that, I still haven't upgraded from 2.04.
The patch which added India (what was it? 2.11? 2.14?) improved the performance a bit for me even though it added the new lands. It wasn't an amazing improvement, but a noticeable one.

Anyway, if the game is slow for you then disable trees and clouds, it gives a huge FPS boost.
 

Konjad

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Query: Is CK2 slower after India being added in the map? Because I heard they did some optimisations, but I don't know if that compensated or even helped make the game overrall faster. Because of that, I still haven't upgraded from 2.04.
The patch which added India (what was it? 2.11? 2.14?) improved the performance a bit for me even though it added the new lands. It wasn't an amazing improvement, but a noticeable one.

Anyway, if the game is slow for you then disable trees and clouds, it gives a huge FPS boost.

Thank you, Konjad. Maybe I will get the newest versions, then.
Why don't you just get the new version while keeping the old one? So you could compare them and choose whichever works better for you?
 

Konjad

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Query: Is CK2 slower after India being added in the map? Because I heard they did some optimisations, but I don't know if that compensated or even helped make the game overrall faster. Because of that, I still haven't upgraded from 2.04.
The patch which added India (what was it? 2.11? 2.14?) improved the performance a bit for me even though it added the new lands. It wasn't an amazing improvement, but a noticeable one.

Anyway, if the game is slow for you then disable trees and clouds, it gives a huge FPS boost.

Thank you, Konjad. Maybe I will get the newest versions, then.
Why don't you just get the new version while keeping the old one? So you could compare them and choose whichever works better for you?


Hmmm... good idea! Thank you once again!
Is the India DLC worth it?
Not for the full price, it's actually a rather mediocre add-on. You don't lose anything interesting not buying it, but if you collect all DLCs you might enjoy playing with it for a while. Just get it on a -50% or a larger sale.

I'd recommend muslim, byzantine, norsemen and jew DLCs though (in this order), if you haven't got them yet.
 

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