Colony Ship Early Access Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Vault Dweller]

Ever thought about reconsidering going for crowdfunding or some sort of alternative funding(like Patreon) in case things don't go well post-release?

If our games can't sell enough to keep us in business (not even to expand the team but to continue as is), it would be pointless to continue. As for crowdfunding, it's an intermediate step to raise some funds and then find a publisher. If Colony Ship doesn't fund our next game, crowdfunding won't either.

Vault Dweller ever considered a publisher, ie Hooded Horse or Microprose or something in that venue?

I did. There are two scenarios there:

1) We finish the game without a publisher's help and let the publisher sell it on the assumption that a publisher can do it better. The problem is, we'd need to sell 40% more just to break even. Making such a deal would require a lot of blind faith.

2) If you're asking about the possibility of a publisher paying for a sequel to a game that didn't sell, I doubt it will go well. First, I doubt there'd be many takers. Second, whoever pays the piper calls the tune, which is only fair. If Colony Ship sells fuck all, what right would we have to tell the publisher that we know better (when we clearly don't)?

So one way or another, if Colony Ship doesn't sell, it's over.

 

[Jaedar]

1) We finish the game without a publisher's help and let the publisher sell it on the assumption that a publisher can do it better. The problem is, we'd need to sell 40% more just to break even. Making such a deal would require a lot of blind faith.

It also seems kind of questionable it would help? I guess they might manage to bribe some journo outlets or youtubers to cover the game, but I guess you could just do that directly with only slightly reduced odds of success?

 

[Vault Dweller]

It's very questionable. It's tempting to think that someone can help and do what we can't, tempting to imagine a partnership where we focus on design and the publisher on promoting the game, BUT....

I talked to many publishers over the last few years. I asked them two questions: what exactly are you going to do and what's your experience with promoting hardcore RPGs? With the exception of Hooded Horse, none of them really answered these questions. The impression I walked away with was that they'll do very little and rely on their brand. That's it. If it sells, great; if it doesn't, oh well... better luck next time. They lose nothing in any scenario. We've all seen some abysmal no-marketing where-did-this game-come-from releases from pretty big publishers.

This brings us to the next question: what exactly is game marketing and how do you promote a hardcore RPG? Let's say PC Gamer will post a very positive review tomorrow; how would it affect sales? No idea. Perhaps it won't have any effect at all. What if we give out keys to 100 'generic' influencers? Would it have a noticeable effect? I doubt it. We all know the really effective hardcore RPG influencers, but I doubt the publishers would have any sway over them and I doubt it's worth 30% of sales. Ads on gaming sites? Probably waste of money.

We'll be participating in a turn-based festival on Steam in December, so let's see how it goes and what it gets us in terms of sales and wishlists.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

It's very questionable. It's tempting to think that someone can help and do what we can't, tempting to imagine a partnership where we focus on design and the publisher on promoting the game, BUT....

I talked to many publishers over the last few years. I asked them two questions: what exactly are you going to do and what's your experience with promoting hardcore RPGs? With the exception of Hooded Horse, none of them really answered these questions. The impression I walked away with was that they'll do very little and rely on their brand. That's it. If it sells, great; if it doesn't, oh well... better luck next time. They lose nothing in any scenario. We've all seen some abysmal no-marketing where-did-this game-come-from releases from pretty big publishers.

This brings us to the next question: what exactly is game marketing and how do you promote a hardcore RPG? Let's say PC Gamer will post a very positive review tomorrow; how would it affect sales? No idea. Perhaps it won't have any effect at all. What if we give out keys to 100 'generic' influencers? Would it have a noticeable effect? I doubt it. We all know the really effective hardcore RPG influencers, but I doubt the publishers would have any sway over them and I doubt it's worth 30% of sales. Ads on gaming sites? Probably waste of money.

We'll be participating in a turn-based festival on Steam in December, so let's see how it goes and what it gets us in terms of sales and wishlists.

Do you think working with a publisher is better or worse than hiring a dedicated PR manager?

 

[lukaszek]

just implement organ harvesting and have Sseth review it a couple of days after release. $$$$$.

already there. Sseth only cares about penises though

 

[Vault Dweller]

Do you think working with a publisher is better or worse than hiring a dedicated PR manager?

I'm not sure that PR does anything at all (when it comes to sales).

 

[Jaedar]

Do you think working with a publisher is better or worse than hiring a dedicated PR manager?

I'm not sure that PR does anything at all (when it comes to sales).

I think PR can do a lot for sales (just look at the true hype machines like Todd) and iirc I've heard some stories like 'famous streamer/youtuber covered our game and the week after we saw a massive boost in sales' (but I can't recall a specific example so maybe I'm wrong. But gog giving out discounts whenever Sseth covers a game implies they think there's money in it).
But I also can't think of a single example of a hardcore crpg where the trailer, or seeing someone else play it made me interested if I wasn't already. I think the market exists, because it turned out there was a huge market for other traditionally niche genres, but I don't think anyone has figured out how to really sell it yet, or convert the curious into faithful.

They lose nothing in any scenario.

This is a very good point. If they don't believe in the game, they'll just pay for 0 marketing and still get a large chunk of the profit. I guess unless they agree to spending a minimum amount of $ on marketing the game there is no point.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I think PR can do a lot for sales (just look at the true hype machines like Todd)

I think PR is a bit different for massive AAA hits that everyone wants to cover (huge traffic boost) and play.

...and iirc I've heard some stories like 'famous streamer/youtuber covered our game and the week after we saw a massive boost in sales' (but I can't recall a specific example so maybe I'm wrong. But gog giving out discounts whenever Sseth covers a game implies they think there's money in it).

I don't think you need a PR manager to talk to youtubers, especially since there aren't that many people covering hardcore RPGs (read as non-casual, non-action, limited-appeal RPGs). Plus there are PR agencies that can do it for you (meaning contact and send keys) for a thousand bucks or so.

This is a very good point. If they don't believe in the game, they'll just pay for 0 marketing and still get a large chunk of the profit. I guess unless they agree to spending a minimum amount of $ on marketing the game there is no point.

I think belief has nothing to do with it.

Exhibit A:
Terra Invicta (3k reviews in 2 months of Early Access) vs Old World (1,5k reviews in 6 months after release). Same publisher, Hooded Horse. I doubt that they didn't believe in Old World or did less than what they did for Terra Invicta. You can say that Invicta sounds more interesting and that it benefits from the built-in Long War audience, but the purpose of marketing isn't to judge which game is better but to attract people and clearly Old World can appeal to a lot more people but somehow marketing didn't quite work there.

Exhibit B:

Encased (3,162 reviews) vs Atom RPG (7,600 reviews and zero marketing). Encased had a fantastic twitter campaign, relentlessly driving people to Steam to follow and wishlist. Then Prime Matter, a newly created division of Koch Media (Koch Media meaning deep pockets, newly created meaning a lot of effort poured into it), took over and did a lot of marketing. Again, this isn't about which game is better, this is about a simple fact that marketing failed to generate the sales numbers despite the game's stellar visuals and very positive rating.

 

[Technomancer]

Encased (3,162 reviews) vs Atom RPG (7,600 reviews and zero marketing)

Atom RPG was always quite easier to sell. Russian Fallout and all. Everybody interested in RPGs know the big F.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You missed my point. Yes, Atom did very well, much better than AoD, but it's a modest hit. Battle Brothers has 16k reviews and Wartales already has 7.3k reviews while still in Early Access. There's nothing to suggest that Encased, backed by a big publisher eager to show what the new RPG division can do, couldn't hit the same numbers. THAT is what marketing is supposed to be about after all, making sure that everyone interested in such RPGs would know about it. Yet they failed despite presumably their best effort.

 

[Technomancer]

Yet they failed despite presumably their best effort.

Yeah it happens. They often don't know what they are doing. Saw Darrah interview recently about early Dragon Age and how EA marketing was completely retarded because they only knew how to shill their stupid sports games.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

You missed my point. Yes, Atom did very well, much better than AoD, but it's a modest hit. Battle Brothers has 16k reviews and Wartales already has 7.3k reviews while still in Early Access. There's nothing to suggest that Encased, backed by a big publisher eager to show what the new RPG division can do, couldn't hit the same numbers. THAT is what marketing is supposed to be about after all, making sure that everyone interested in such RPGs would know about it. Yet they failed despite presumably their best effort.

Wasn't Encased hit by a wave of negative word of mouth?

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

Encased went through a state of radio silence and lies before Koch picked them up. I guess it was the time devs ran out of money. When Koch picked them up the development continued, voice acting was added and the game released shortly. But pretty soon you realised it was all frontloaded, there was very little proper content after first 1/3 of the game

 

[Vault Dweller]

Encased went through a state of radio silence and lies before Koch picked them up. I guess it was the time devs ran out of money. When Koch picked them up the development continued, voice acting was added and the game released shortly. But pretty soon you realised it was all frontloaded, there was very little proper content after first 1/3 of the game

Sure, but we're talking about marketing here. Marketing's job is to create an impression that it's an awesome RPG (which isn't that hard since the rating is very positive) and spread the word of mouth, reaching people who never heard of it and thus won't be affected by any negativity.

 

[LostHisMarbles]

While i can guess the answer, it'd be interesting (or not) to know how many people will be attracted by the nu graphics and stick to the game afterwards, when they really see what it's like. That percentage of people that 'til now were only held back due to the 'bad' graphics.
For what you guys are doing, i don't think that's gonna be a big number; though i wish i'm proven wrong of course.

- You've got the usual (decline, blah blah)
- And now you've got that accursed Steam refund thing; great when you buy EA titles i guess, but pretty devastating when you sell a Colony Ship.

Potential customer intrigued but uncertain, let's buy and see, it doesn't cost that much? No longer a category. I know this first hand from literature, second hand from friends working in the movies industry, can guess when it comes to gaming industry.
Now you just refund. For decades up to now?
That's how folks sold; a good cover alone and you'd be set, over, you'd cached it in. Fantasies now.
And then market saturation.. won't even go there.

As to PR bullshit?
Marketing works, or rather worked, when the best i could hope for was some paper printed old magazine to 'tell me' what's new; and what's worth it.
AKA marketing works when you're convinced someone knows better and/or there's something worth your while; where you wouldn't have expected it, or where you thought there was nothing of value to see.
When you're decidedly -not- hardcore, second bit is out. Won't even mention the first part in the social media era. Half the game is out before it's out.

And now a very, very relevant question after all this
Could you do a dungeon rats (aka old engine) that's as big and complicated as a Fallout or a Colony Ship? Obviously without the UE graphics, asking if you.. technically can.
'Cause that's where i'd have put my eggs from the getgo to be honest. Same engine, different content.

I didn't buy a total of four copies just for me because i like graphics.. i bought one and loved AoD, so bought a second one to support; same with DR.
We aren't (are we?) a category that gives a fuck about graphics and RTX 4090s.
I'd say.

Anyway, i hope you guys sell well, from the bottom of my heart.

 

[Infinitron]

I think Vault Dweller needs to try to aggressively upsell Colony Ship to Age of Decadence owners. That's your surest bet - people who you know have already paid money for that sort of game. Find a way to remind them you exist.

 

[Haba]

He can try, but I for example no longer buy incomplete things. At the rate and way things have been going recently, there is a good chance I won't ever get to play it when it is "complete". My library is already full of unread books and unwatched movies, not to even mention the games.

So no more kickstarter, no more early access for me. RPGs get the worst of it, for they rarely are "ready" at release. So no more day 1 RPG purchases either. I'll come back when the bugs are fixed and DLC/expansions are out.

 

[Jaedar]

And now you've got that accursed Steam refund thing

Steam refund and steam user ratings are probably the best thing to happens to video game consumers in the last two decades.

 

[MF]

It's very questionable. It's tempting to think that someone can help and do what we can't, tempting to imagine a partnership where we focus on design and the publisher on promoting the game, BUT....

I got some offers from publishers last year. The numbers didn't really make sense to me.

When I sit down and think about it, I believe PR in present day only works if you're some kind of viral meme lord, manage to capitalize on an already existing public presence or have enough whale money to move the needle with bought eyeballs. Word of mouth and the Steam algorithm are most important, but you can't actively stake that bet beyond making the best game you can.

For Colony Ship, I'd be optimistic. The game hasn't been released yet and unlike a poorly managed perpetual Early Access game like Barotrauma -a cool game seemingly getting worse with each update-, you actually have a timeline towards actual release mapped out. You clearly state that the game is unfinished and cannot be played to the end yet. A lot of people are probably holding out.

I also just realized something about the demo. It's a combat demo. AoD's demo was all of Teron. It's as if you'd be demoing AoD by giving people a piece of Dungeon Rats.

Anyway, I wish you guys strength. First the personal tragedy, now a war. Can't be easy. I really hope you get to do more than three games.

 

[Vault Dweller]

We'll do a proper demo, hopefully in Dec. We didn't have time to do it before.

 

[LostHisMarbles]

Steam refund and steam user ratings are probably the best thing to happens to video game consumers in the last two decades.

Two sides to everything, surely that's simple enough a concept even for Codex standards?
That you're a consoomer in this need not necessarily remove your ability to see it a bit more objectively; be it or be it not to your liking/approval.

 

[Jaedar]

Steam refund and steam user ratings are probably the best thing to happens to video game consumers in the last two decades.

Two sides to everything, surely that's simple enough a concept even for Codex standards?
That you're a consoomer in this need not necessarily remove your ability to see it a bit more objectively; be it or be it not to your liking/approval.

Nope, refund is also good for devs. If your game is good people won't refund it, and if it's bad you'll go out of business and leave more oxygen for the good stuff. Plus it might make people less wary of trying stuff outside their comfort zone, because they can always refund it so easier to reach new audiences.

I guess it's bad for bad devs and scam artists but well... that's like saying there's two sides to police because police are bad for criminals.

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

Vault Dweller Have you considered a more catchy name?

 

[razvedchiki]

age of lazors: the return of rng.

 

[agris]

Decadence of Colonies: An Age of Ships RPG Game