Game News Community Expansion Pack for Neverwinter Nights Announced

[Otaku_Hanzo]

The only real romance plot in a CRPG I can remember liking was the one they did in the SSI Gold Box game Treasures Of The Savage Frontier. The NPC in question would pick a male human or half-elf in your group, if you had one, and a relationship would blossom between them whenever you camped. It only happened when you camped though and it took time. Granted, you had no control over the romance, but it was done in a tasteful fashion and not during the middle of combat.

 

[Dgaider]

Oh, it's definitely a good idea. The community members who are on the CEP Team are making sure that everything that goes into it has a certain level of quality and that it works.

The problem with NWN's mods is the lack of any uniformiity. You could download a module, then have to go scouting for half a dozen support files somewhere. Would have been nice if, when you guys set NWN and the community stuff up, you'd hosted a module/hak/etc. file repository that allowed the game itself to simply hop on that BioWare hosted dealie and just up and automagically grab it and install it. No muss, no fuss.

I quite agree, if the security issues that might pose could be solved. I suspect there'd be other issues as my experience says nothing is automagical, but regardless the custom content delivery system in NWN could be a lot better. We've learned a lot, though, from this effort.

I put an EDIT in the news post to make that more clear.

Excellent, thank you. I don't know if "pimping" is the right word for it, though... not unless we also have the power to bitch slap at will, and I'm not sure that we do.

Yup. If I'd wanted romance, I wouldn't have gotten married.

Still, I don't think anyone can deny that the romances have been extremely popular. And we are working on improving the timing aspect of romance NPCs initiating dialogue which has been mentioned above... BG2 used timers which meant dialogue could occur anywhere, and I really don't think we'll ever use that again. The romance dialogues in KotOR and Hordes of the Underdark either required player initiation or only occurred at specific points to prevent that.

Doesn't mean everyone will like it, but we don't force it on you either.

 

[Dgaider]

I wouldn't say it's impossible to implement romances well in an RPG. But I wonder what, in terms of gameplay and content, would have to be sacrificed for a proper representation of this feature.

That's a good question. I guess it's a matter of what you're trying to achieve... is the romance just a side thing and a way to get a new party member, or is it part of the overall plot?... and what constitutes "proper representation"?

Obviously the "comrades in arms" romance aspect precludes the normal kinds of courtship we're accustomed to, so you're going to have to approach it a bit differently right off the bat. Personally I think I'd like to get more towards a system where the romance is completely player-driven and event-driven rather than having the character reciting dialogue... though that is the most time-efficient way to write them.

 

[Jed]

Can you clarify what you mean by "player-driven" in this context?

 

[Psilon]

Equip smoking jacket, cast Eagle's Splendor and Charm Person, initiate dialogue, click 'rest.'

Or, for the M rating:

PC and NPC equip leather armor, NPC casts Dominate Person on PC, NPC makes PC click 'rest' with tongue.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Hah! That's good Psilon.

My thing with romances in RPGs is that I'm a plump zit covered single male who's never had a girlfriend and still goes to high school so when I see romances in RPGs they make me jealous and self conscious of my lack of real-life love and therefore drive me to suicidal thoughts where upon I have to have a chat with the school psychologist but she's hot and has got nice legs so that's okay.

Well, either that or I just never understood how someone could bump into you, follow you into a dungeon, kill some stuff, get wild and horny and want to "marry" you. I think anyone that wants to root after killing a few things is a bit psycho, personally. Not my type really.

The "marriage" in Fallout 2 was a good one though. Nothing like a shotgun wedding.
[/Obligatory Fallout is Great Comment]

 

[Gromnir]

crpg romances give Gromnir the willies... but they is freaking popular.

fantasy/fairytale romance can be a bit juvenile, but it ain't simple. crowley's "Little, Big," is 500+ pages long. gaiman's "Neverwhere," is 300+ pages long and you never get no romance resolution. how much text is you going to be able spend developing a crpg romance? sure ain’t gonna be 300+ pages. am not saying you need lots of text, but minimalism has never been the most popular approach for dealing with romance in novels or drama.

now try to make the romance incidental to main plot points and your task is even tougher. "This like any story worth telling is all about a girl, that girl." spider-man is a simple bit of storytelling with traditional heroes and villains and the requisite romantic interest, but try to make mary jane a character that isn't necessary. am not even sure how we would approach such a thing.

as much as Gromnir personally hates crpg romances we must concede that bioware has been able to do something with them that we would never have attempted… and they seem to have been able to make most folks satisfied with results… go figure.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Still, I don't think anyone can deny that the romances have been extremely popular. And we are working on improving the timing aspect of romance NPCs initiating dialogue which has been mentioned above... BG2 used timers which meant dialogue could occur anywhere, and I really don't think we'll ever use that again. The romance dialogues in KotOR and Hordes of the Underdark either required player initiation or only occurred at specific points to prevent that.

Well, one thing I noticed about both KotOR and HotU was that the followers' Let me tell you about my feelings stuff did pop up at inappropriate times. While not romance stuff, it still got rather annoying. For example, in HotU, I was just about to enter the place where the Drow people were holding Hollister and the bard chick broke in to dialogue right as I was nearing the door to tell me something. I can't remember what it was, but things like that really tend to break the building up to something mood.

Imagine a war movie where a group of guys is about to storm an Nazi bunker and get back the secret allied plans that were stolen by a spy. They've transversed the mine field with lots of barbed wire barracades, snuck passed the perimeter guards, and stealthfully killed the back door guards with bayonets. They ready their equipment for the fight where they know that some of them won't be coming out alive. Right as the brazen sargent is about to kick in the backdoor, a plucky young corporal starts telling him about the fond memories he had of his golden retreiver on the farm in Kansas when he was a kid.

Any tension that's been built up thusfar is suddenly lost and for what? So you now know the corporal had a dog?

If you want to do things like that, I'd say the best way to set them up is to have them based on location and what quests are active. Things like that are best left to bars and taverns or safe resting spots like inns when there isn't a major quest active. If there is an active quest, the characters should be focused on that quest, not on their feelings about their past or something like that.

That's a good question. I guess it's a matter of what you're trying to achieve... is the romance just a side thing and a way to get a new party member, or is it part of the overall plot?... and what constitutes "proper representation"?

Well, I'd say it would be better to focus more on dialogue choices having unique replies rather than on romances. KotOR was really bad about having multiple dialogue choices leading to the same responses. I'd gladly sacrifice getting in Bastilla's pants for pissing her off to where she shuts up forever. Then again, I didn't do any of the romance stuff in KotOR, but I was stunned by how obvious the dialogue choices were arbitrary because they'd lead to a generic response to a multitude of what you could ask.

fantasy/fairytale romance can be a bit juvenile, but it ain't simple. crowley's "Little, Big," is 500+ pages long. gaiman's "Neverwhere," is 300+ pages long and you never get no romance resolution. how much text is you going to be able spend developing a crpg romance? sure ain?t gonna be 300+ pages. am not saying you need lots of text, but minimalism has never been the most popular approach for dealing with romance in novels or drama.

I agree with that. That's another big problem with them. They just seem so forced because there's very little set up for them. It's like one minute you're talking about how you have to defeat the vile forces of Hug'gazirith the Evil and at the end, someone tacked on, "I love you!" to the dialogue. Sure, that's an exaggeration, but that's the way they feel to me.

 

[Elwro]

[
Imagine a war movie where a group of guys is about to storm an Nazi bunker and get back the secret allied plans that were stolen by a spy. They've transversed the mine field with lots of barbed wire barracades, snuck passed the perimeter guards, and stealthfully killed the back door guards with bayonets. They ready their equipment for the fight where they know that some of them won't be coming out alive. Right as the brazen sargent is about to kick in the backdoor, a plucky young corporal starts telling him about the fond memories he had of his golden retreiver on the farm in Kansas when he was a kid. .

I have an impression that many movies do just that - in the climax someone says You know, I loved you all my life and everything is ruined. Can't remember any titles though.

As for romances, I think that they should be implemented in such a way that not every PC doing anything can be a part of them. Don't do timers. Like Saint said - leave romancing to inns and beautiful evenings near a bonfire. But if the PC leads their party to a dungeon for a happy hack'n'slash, I have doubts any deep feelings would develop. Similar, if the PC is really mean and ugly, don't force any romances on him.

Not everything you create should be available to the player everytime he plays the game. It adds to the replayability values, imo. (maybe someone could say: Hey, I heard there were romances in that game, but my Ogre somehow missed them; this time I'll play an elven casanova and we'll see!)
The problem is that many kids play Dwarven Fighters with Cha 3, and they still want their PCs to romance. My solution would be that I don't care about that, but this wouldn't increase the sales certainly...

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Imagine a war movie where a group of guys is about to storm an Nazi bunker and get back the secret allied plans that were stolen by a spy. They've transversed the mine field with lots of barbed wire barracades, snuck passed the perimeter guards, and stealthfully killed the back door guards with bayonets. They ready their equipment for the fight where they know that some of them won't be coming out alive. Right as the brazen sargent is about to kick in the backdoor, a plucky young corporal starts telling him about the fond memories he had of his golden retreiver on the farm in Kansas when he was a kid.

::forwards idea to Hollywood to get filthy rich::

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

As for romances, I think that they should be implemented in such a way that not every PC doing anything can be a part of them. Don't do timers. Like Saint said - leave romancing to inns and beautiful evenings near a bonfire.

That sounds quite good.

But if the PC leads their party to a dungeon for a happy hack'n'slash, I have doubts any deep feelings would develop. Similar, if the PC is really mean and ugly, don't force any romances on him.

I'm not against a romance having one or two timed/scripted events. They might re-enforce a certain concept, like someone wanting to tell you they've reached a decision. I just don't want it to happen at every turn. You have occasions in BG2 where its understandable (in a way), like when you have Jaheira (the reason for bitch-slapping options in romance dialogues) go to the Harper Hold, or when you have the brigands snatch her up; or when you have Viconia in the party and she's tracked down by the Drow and a Yochlol (sp?). But other than that they shouldn't kick like they did.

 

[Jed]

Not everything you create should be available to the player everytime he plays the game. It adds to the replayability values, imo. (maybe someone could say: Hey, I heard there were romances in that game, but my Ogre somehow missed them; this time I'll play an elven casanova and we'll see!)

Yeah, but you know how it is: no one ever replays a game anyway...

 

[Gromnir]

" Don't do timers. Like Saint said - leave romancing to inns and beautiful evenings near a bonfire."

the more "non-linear" a game becomes, the less viable this alternative becomes. the setting of the few essential plot points is unlikely to be at firesides... and even if they is, you will no doubt complain 'cause the npc wants to romance at such an inopportune time. we did not play hotu, but as it was an expansion, with even less time to cram a romance into script, we expect that unlikely times for romance encounters is gonna necessarily increase.

would address your suggestion of leaving possibility of romance and other stuff to chance, but you already identified the main problem with that... buy a $50 game and play for 40+ hours only to realize that the laws of probability was 'gainst you. is not a good way to build good will with customers, is it?

again, main issues we see is the fact that romances is that such things ain’t gonna be getting much text, and they is not gonna be essential. such burdens force writers to make concessions. if you not make essential to main plot, then you is gonna have to find other places, random nodes in game where romances is gonna be appropriate. not only make sure that there is inns and firesides where a pc must be often ‘nuff to initiate dialogue, but you gotta make sure that the pc has the appropriate party dynamic at those places. good luck. also, if you wants a romance to develop in a way that not seem hasty or forced then you is gonna have to develop it… but you is gonna have to do so with only a handful of brief romance encounters.

is easy to identify the shortcomings. we all know the shortcomings. problem is, given the limitations of the medium, how do you improve?

personally, we would never take a shot at writing romance in a crpg. we don’t see how it can be done well given the obstacles that a crpg writer would have to contend with. ‘course this ignores the reality that folks like the romances… they is popular. predictably, bioware will continue to put romances in games and given that reality we struggle to thinks of ways to improve them.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Wanting to romance in an inn, or while camping, isn't inopportune. Players usually use inns, or camp out, to rest between battles, so its more of a way of combining something you know players will do (resting), and something you want them to experience (the romance). Having dialogue options for romance while camping is hardly a problem. At least then, a player is ready to have a more contemplating attitude towards the romance, instead of finding himself in a dungeon with golems to the left, gnolls to the right, vampires and orcs on adjacent rooms, when suddenly someone will ask him "Do you think i'm teh cuteness??".

 

[Spazmo]

From what I've read, it seems to me like players don't so much like the romances--in fact, most people tend to complain that Aerie is too whiny, Anomen is too uppity and Jaheira is too much of an uppity whiner. Rather, they like the XP awards and items the romances seem to yield.

Anyways, it seems to me like PS:T found the optimal way of doing it: simply having the player initiate the dialogs. Not just for romances, which were far less elaborate than BG2's, but also for all party interaction, like Dak'kon's Circle of Zerthimon stuff. PS:T just let you talk to any party member at any time and discuss things like romance or cosmic balance or what have you. Usually, there were stat checks against your wisdom, charisma or intelligence to determine if you could progress farther in that string rather than a timer. Also, several in-game events would unlock further dialog strings, like discussing Pharod's demise with Annah. I think that's the best way to do it: make the player take the initiative and if he's got the stats or has done the right things for it, let him progress.

 

[Gromnir]

you play a high level fighter type and you need not rest very often... most of 'em got potions and regeneration items. am imagining that some of those fighter/weapon masters never have to rest.

even so, we got nothing 'gainst preferring rest schedules to set up romance dialogues... this happened often in bg2. however, we was specifically addressing hotu, no? we played kotor and we noticed that bastilla did not often initiate romance dialogues in battle areas (and that was a game w/o need for sleeping/resting.) again, we assume we is talking ‘bout hotu so try to cram all the romance encounters into theoretical and unknown d&d rest schedule? rest stops is good places for romance dialogues, but we don’t think you can count on them, can you?

and where were the inns you suggest is everywhere? again, we did not play hotu, but as we understand it, there was an inn in waterdeep... which you never had to go. there was an inn in the underdark... which probably got a single visit. we imagine that they found a way to put an inn into hell as well... gotta have an inn/tavern no matter how unlikely the locale. so, you got three inns (maybe a couple more… as we say, we didn’t play hotu,) and IF you got to all of them that is three or four places to advance romance, and that is assuming that you got the right romantic partner in your party at the time you is at the inn. did you have the drow tart with you at the inn at waterdeep?

"Rather, they like the XP awards and items the romances seem to yield. "

we suggest that you is incorrect. there is literally dozens of carth fan threads at the kotor boards... each seeming to be 9 or 10+ pages long. was there some big reward for the carth romance? if there was, nobody seems to mention it. was bastilla romance giving a big xp reward or some special trinket?

as to aerie and anomen being pains... yup. so what? the complaints not keep folks from liking. lots of women complained 'bout anomen... but they also wanted MORE romance. did folks complain 'bout aerie? sure they did, but they also talked 'bout how much they liked viconia. note a few complaints 'bout the romances is hardly a way of convincing folks that romances as a whole were unappreciated.

name the xp rewards and items gained from bioware game romances. did any other type o’ quest last so long and give so little experience or treasure? show us a few threads or posts where folks is saying that they love the rewards and not the romances… ‘cause if you want we can show bunches of threads that applaud the romance characters w/o never mentioning rewards.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[MrBrown]

Not everything you create should be available to the player everytime he plays the game. It adds to the replayability values, imo. (maybe someone could say: Hey, I heard there were romances in that game, but my Ogre somehow missed them; this time I'll play an elven casanova and we'll see!)
The problem is that many kids play Dwarven Fighters with Cha 3, and they still want their PCs to romance. My solution would be that I don't care about that, but this wouldn't increase the sales certainly...

I agree that it would be nice to be able to play a ladiesman-type guy with a high charisma character... However, unless a character like this really is playable, I'd rather romances are open to all. Otherwise it'll easily get to the kind if replayability where you complete 99% of the game on one go-through, and then you have to replay the whole game for that 1%.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

@Spazmo: I'm not so sure if Torment had the optimal way. While it was preferable to have the player decide when to interact, this also made NPCs very static. In a romance, both sides usually have their own mind, and will talk about something on their own. I liked BG2's aspect of having romanceable characters address me, but severely disliked the fact that i couldn't talk to them myself ("NPC has nothing to say to you"), or that their banter came up on irregular and unconvenient times; meanwhile i liked the ability of talking to Annah or Grace in my party, but disliked that they wouldn't talk to me out of their own accord (specially after events like me kissing Ravel when she shapeshifted into Annah or Grace). Neither had the optimal way, in my opinion.

@Gromnir: Actually i was talking about BG2. Apologies for not having made that clear. I've yet to play HoTU (if i ever will).

 

[Gromnir]

ah.

well, as noted already, there did seem to be a preference for rest time romance dialogues even in bg2. however, there was some romance dialogues happening in very strange places too... which is why bio seemed to address this issue.

'course...

kotor had no rest stops.

hotu was an expansion.

*shrug*

as bio is not doing another d&d game anytime soon, they may not be able to rely on rest stops in future neither, and developers is back to trying to find appropriate places to stick these things.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

True.

:shock: Grom! Thats one of the most correct posts i've seen you make! You didn't even used "we". I'm proud of you :wink:

 

[Gromnir]

when talk 'bout or refer to self we says "we."

was a short post... try not to make too much outta it.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Sol Invictus]

Since we're on the subject of romances, I must say that should Jade Empires ever come to the PC, there's no doubt in my mind that I will play it, but to the point - I wouldn't want to have a romance with the lead female character that game currently features.

The reason is simple - she's butt ugly. Her face looks identical to Lucy Liu's, which isn't very pleasing to begin with. Couldn't they have picked a better face? Pixel sex and Lara Croft jokes aside, Bastila certainly had a 'pretty' face. One worth romancing.

Oh, and if some idiot would come out and say something like "but all asian girls are ugly to me - your definition of beauty is Lucy Liu", I'm going to smack you very hard.

 

[Anonymous]

Gaider enjoys romances with cakes.

 

[Greenskin13]

This is where I think console RPGs have got it down. While the romances may not be better in quality, they do have the timing correct. Because of the linear structure of those games, they can pull of planned events that flow better. First, you have to fight the boss, then you'll automatically have to camp, and then the game will have a romance event. No muss, no fuss. Sadly, no choice either. It does make me feel more epic than the romances in Computer RPGs. But after playing Fallout, I can't say I can totally go back to the unbending linearity.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The reason is simple - she's butt ugly. Her face looks identical to Lucy Liu's, which isn't very pleasing to begin with.

Lucy Liu is ugly? :shock: