Cyberpunk 2077 Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[agris]

Vault Dweller any thoughts re: the comments here on “improve by using” skill systems and it’s implementation in the Colony Ship RPG?

I realize you don’t have an open world and there are caps per fight/action but since you’ve given it more thought than a lot of the armchair quarterbacks here, I’m curious about your take.

 

[Wyatt_Derp]

So ancient nerds were high T individuals?

Yes. The UN carpet bombed the Smurfs, why wouldn't they put shit in your burger, bro?

 

[Wesp5]

Learn by use makes the main level irrelevant. Maybe they don't even implement one.

I would like that. Bloodlines had no main level and it worked fine! As for leveling skills, to me only real training would make sense, like someone gives you a quest and as a reward he will teach you something...

 

[Vault Dweller]

Vault Dweller any thoughts re: the comments here on “improve by using” skill systems and it’s implementation in the Colony Ship RPG?

I realize you don’t have an open world and there are caps per fight/action but since you’ve given it more thought than a lot of the armchair quarterbacks here, I’m curious about your take.

Didn't Wiz 8, Prelude to Darkness, Jagged Alliance, Dungeon Master, Betrayal at Krondor, and many other well-regarded RPGs use such systems with great effect? The Elder Scroll system is so prone to 'abuse' because making you the master of all trades and factions was the goal not because the system itself is so prone to abuse. As for our take on it:

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,7664.0.html

 

[luj1]

E.g. in Skyrim the optimal way to play a melee character is to take as many hits as possible in each minor encounter to increase you armor skill. Which is retarded.

You are retarded, not the system. Optimal way? What is optimal about that? Optimal means efficient. If you are an OCD'd retard with a grinding playstyle ready to waste hours and hours on dumb shit then that's your problem.

An open world and a learn by doing system doesn't bode well IMO.

It's not that. Morrowind had a true open world + learn by doing + everything hand placed and it worked out amazing.

 

[Vault Dweller]

An open world and a learn by doing system doesn't bode well IMO.

Wiz 8?

 

[Zer0wing]

Wiz 8?

Wait.. Wizardry games are not made by japs?

 

[Mr. Hiver]

Vault Dweller

a question or two, just curious about some design decisions.

Armor: When the enemy hits your party member, that character gains learning points equal to damage resisted by the armor until the pool is depleted, so the heavier the armor the faster you’d develop the skill.

Why give such advantage to heavy armor only? Isnt there light armor and some sort of medium armor, or just heavy armor and dodging-evasion?

Is there any limit to which and how many of different skills each character can take? Or is the limit achieved just by the fact a single character would, for example, fix everything and so increase the mechanical and electronic skills while others then wont be able to find enough of stuff to repair and salvage?

You gain 10lp every time you pick a tagged line (the points go to the skill matching the tag) plus 100 bonus points if you solve a quest with diplomacy. This way a pure talker would have much higher dialogue skills than a chatty killer (a man who clicks on all dialogue options first to gain all LP, then kills everyone anyway).

What actually differentiates solving with diplomacy only from solving with diplomacy and then killing everyone? Say, im careful to solve it through diplomacy instead of just randomly clicking all dialogue options and then i kill everyone.
What if I get diplomacy points, go away and then return later and kill everyone in that location?

Will impersonate require anything else except dialogue choices?

 

[Machocruz]

Within two comments, Colony Ship already seems like a more interesting RPG than the game that's been talked about for 170+pages

 

[AwesomeButton]

An open world and a learn by doing system doesn't bode well IMO.

Wiz 8?

I haven't played it, but I've played Morrowind and a little Oblivion.

 

[Mikeal]

So ancient nerds were high T individuals?

 

[Vault Dweller]

An open world and a learn by doing system doesn't bode well IMO.

Wiz 8?

I haven't played it, but I've played Morrowind and a little Oblivion.

You should, it's a very good game.

Armor: When the enemy hits your party member, that character gains learning points equal to damage resisted by the armor until the pool is depleted, so the heavier the armor the faster you’d develop the skill.

Why give such advantage to heavy armor only? Isnt there light armor and some sort of medium armor, or just heavy armor and dodging-evasion?

First, the current design is nothing but a starting point. We'll see what the players have to say after playing the combat demo and tweak accordingly. As for armor, the progression is similar to AoD. You start with light (and less restrictive) armor and slowly acquire heavier armor. Heavier isn't necessarily better for your character as it reduces your AP and sneaking (it didn't matter much in AoD but it will matter a lot in this game).

Is there any limit to which and how many of different skills each character can take? Or is the limit achieved just by the fact a single character would, for example, fix everything and so increase the mechanical and electronic skills while others then wont be able to find enough of stuff to repair and salvage?

Since it's not a sandbox game, the learning opportunities are hand-crafted and thus limited.

You gain 10lp every time you pick a tagged line (the points go to the skill matching the tag) plus 100 bonus points if you solve a quest with diplomacy. This way a pure talker would have much higher dialogue skills than a chatty killer (a man who clicks on all dialogue options first to gain all LP, then kills everyone anyway).

What actually differentiates solving with diplomacy only from solving with diplomacy and then killing everyone? Say, im careful to solve it through diplomacy instead of just randomly clicking all dialogue options and then i kill everyone.

In most cases you won't be able. For example, in one of the early quests you'd have to deal with some thugs extorting a local trader. You can kill them or convince them to leave. If you choose the latter, they're gone when the conversation is over, so there isn't anyone left to kill. Essentially, the early quests are about choosing which skills you want to develop and it's usually a trade off.

What if I get diplomacy points, go away and then return later and kill everyone in that location?

Such combat will be extremely difficult and only a combat specialist (who wasted no time on non-combat skills) would be able to pull it off. Think of wiping out the mountain pass' garrison in AoD. Maybe a few dozen players were able to do it.

Will impersonate require anything else except dialogue choices?

No. It's not about wearing a disguise but acting the part (i.e. the right attitude, mannerism, way of talking, etc).

 

[Mr. Hiver]

Alright. Seems reasonable.

If i got that correctly, characters with lighter armor will then use dodge and evasion primarily as a defense, similar how it is in AoD?
In that case giving heavy armor such advantage would make sense. Maybe - just maybe, hard to say not knowing other details, LP points gained from light armor damage could be spent on evasion skill? maybe 50% of them, less, something?
Just a thought.

Since it's not a sandbox game, the learning opportunities are hand-crafted and thus limited.

That doesnt tell me much. Do you mean that skills like medicine, electronics and others will be only gained from the gameplay decisions? Not a part of character creation? Or everyone starts will all skills "available" but can only improve those which character uses?

 

[hivemind]

Infinitron
this conversation isn't about cyberpunk please do your duty evenly and cut out this offtopic to its own thread

 

[Vault Dweller]

Alright. Seems reasonable.

If i got that correctly, characters with lighter armor will then use dodge and evasion primarily as a defense, similar how it is in AoD?

Evasion won't be as powerful as AoD's dodge, so it will be more like a strong bonus rather than primary defense. There will be cover, smoke grenades, and gadgets such as energy shield (extra DR) or distortion field (penalty to hit for enemies) or cloaking field (you'll become visible for a brief moment when you attack).

In that case giving heavy armor such advantage would make sense. Maybe - just maybe, hard to say not knowing other details, LP points gained from light armor damage could be spent on evasion skill? maybe 50% of them, less, something?
Just a thought.

We'll consider all suggestions after the demo is released. Right now both skills (armor and evasion) seems to be going up at an appropriate rate.

Since it's not a sandbox game, the learning opportunities are hand-crafted and thus limited.

That doesnt tell me much. Do you mean that skills like medicine, electronics and others will be only gained from the gameplay decisions? Not a part of character creation? Or everyone starts will all skills "available" but can only improve those which character uses?

All skills will be available to all characters, you'll be able to increase them in chargen, during gameplay interactions, and via learning machines.

 

[undecaf]

We'll consider all suggestions after the demo is released.

Is there an ETA for that yet?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Everything's ready except for 20% of animations and half the portraits. Our animator is seriously ill. He's been hospitalized but it didn't help much, so his progress is slow. We're still looking at two months of work.

 

[Mr. Hiver]

Ok, that gives me a better picture of how it all works together. And is close to what i envisioned as a system for my theoretical game, in some areas. Seems like a substantial improvements and enhancement of AoD systems.
Shame about the setting and the story, as ive already indicated several times, but... even so it might turn out to be very good to play just from the mechanics stand point.
I always thought that learn by use should be included and that gameplay decisions should limit what skills improve and increase to avoid Fallout xp-skills inconsistencies. It naturally works best with games of limited content then sandbox and open world types which also always include inane respawning and so have no limits on abuse of such mechanics.


That will be cyberpunk problem, but not for its main target audience. The vanilla mechanics are going to be cheap and superficial just like they are in W3.
Also - first person shooting dumb shaking and reticule changes... Disgusting.

 

[undecaf]

Our animator is seriously ill. He's been hospitalized but it didn't help much, so his progress is slow. We're still looking at two months of work.

Hope he'll get better in due time.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Maybe a few dozen players were able to do it.

What, even I could do it and I'm 60% tactically disabled.

 

[Grotesque]

the reveal that Daft Punk will compose the OST for Cyberpunk 2077 will put to shame the Keanu Reeves reveal

 

[Frozen]

Daft Punk are talentless crap.
Keygen music has 1000 times better tunes than anything they ever made.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

E.g. in Skyrim the optimal way to play a melee character is to take as many hits as possible in each minor encounter to increase you armor skill. Which is retarded.

You are retarded, not the system. Optimal way? What is optimal about that? Optimal means efficient. If you are an OCD'd retard with a grinding playstyle ready to waste hours and hours on dumb shit then that's your problem.

Being OCD is irrelevant, you have to allow weaker enemies to punish you to raise your armor skill, because if you face stronger enemies with weak armor they will one-hit you. You can use trainers but then we have to consider if paying money for a skill that can be raised for free tediously but easily is efficient.

 

[Efe]

ideally you want them as strong as you can heal
ugh, thinking about how much time mage players in morrowind spent casting shitty self buffs in guild hall...
learn by use isnt that good

 

[Yosharian]

You can talk about how spamming spells over and over isn't the way the game is meant to be played, but the reality of the situation is, either the game is balanced around being able to do that (which ruins it for the players who self-limit) or game balance can be utterly destroyed by it. Either way, it's not a great system.

And adding even more limitations, like 'casting spells only adds XP when you're in combat' just ends up feeling counterintuitive and 'gamey', ruining the immersion which was the entire reason for having the system in the first place.

Not to mention that such systems can still be completely broken quite easily by exploiting simple mechanics - all you have to do is find a melee-only creature in an enclosed area where there is a ledge or box to climb to that the creature cannot reach, and now you can spam spells while the creature runs around desperately trying to path to you.

The Elder Scrolls system has its positives, but it's very flawed.