Cyberpunk 2077 Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[DalekFlay]

How many decades must go by before humans learn to stop expecting adaptations to other mediums to be identical to the source medium?

 

[Latelistener]

I guess if they didn't promise many more playable classes, straight from the source material and many other things, expectations would have been different. Now it's just "open-world action adventure".

Personally, I don't care much about the source, but I liked the original pitch much more. It had the right vibe.

 

[SpaceWizardz]

I didn't expect a 1:1 adaptation, I'm still disappointed with the direction they've gone in though.
Starting with "We want to make an ambitious RPG that's an adaptation of a tabletop setting" and looking at what it is now is frustrating, because it feels like a rerun of Dragon Age 2 era Bioware, just instead of developers outright saying stupid shit like "We want the Call of Duty audience." and that they don't even like how RPGs play, we're seeing it with the decisions they keep making.

 

[hivemind]

I love how they never say how diversity will lead to better products, just cuz!

"In an environment where you can simply be yourself it becomes easier to have frank discussions, share ideas, and express opinions--and that provides a starting point for many interesting activities," he said. "When a revolution in RPGs takes place, it is because a team of bold women and men has had the audacity to express its ideas."

learn to read retard

 

[DalekFlay]

Personally, I don't care much about the source, but I liked the original pitch much more. It had the right vibe.

At this point I just want an open world Deus Ex. Trying not to expect that though, since expectations always lead to disappointment. I'm expecting a simple open world shooter with good dialog.

 

[Gargaune]

But that's the thing - they didn't implement 3 classes. They mashed together three classes into a mix. You aren't really a Netrunner, nor you were a Techie. You were a Solo, who could specialize in certain aspects of the three, but you still require the actual specialists (in the very first gameplay we are assisted by a real Netrunner). In some way it's staggering how close this is to The Witcher than to Cyberpunk 2020.

And they aren't adding depth in the process. They are cutting the extra work that'd be required in order to make the actual different classes viable choices in their own right. They probably realized that having 9 classes available to a player is way too much work and they were behind on schedule already, so they "outsourced" them to NPCs. That way they can say "Look! The Corpo is in the game!", but it's not the same as adding depth to the existing classes, because adding depth suggest something is gained in exchange.

You're likely correct, but I think a lot of people have some very slanted expectations for what Cyperpunk 2077 is meant to be. I don't see the problem with an open-world Action-RPG like this shedding tabletop elements because I never assumed CDPR were going for "Cyberpunk 2020 but with raytracing instead of pencils."

As far as I'm concerned, I'd consider CBP a complete success if it managed to deliver an open-world Deus Ex, but even that's not really a viable prospect. Look at Mankind Divided, which was superb in its own right and had all the production resources a contemporary AAA title can claim, and still the developers had to resort to some clever sleight-of-hand to build it, wherein you visit Prague on three separate occasions. Each visit just different enough to stay interesting, but the bulk of the environment assets were shared between these three massive "levels." Even with CDPR's greater resources, I doubt they'd be able to deliver a dynamic open world with the same level of density and detail.

CBP 2077 will likely fall somewhere in between an open-world Immersive Sim and GTA-with-XP, and the closer it gets to the former, the better a game it will be. How happy you'll be with that, regardless of the Codex's proclivity for being unhappy, depends on what you want from the game. If you accept the notion that the main aspiration for CDPR is to make an "open world Deus Ex", and I do feel that's roughly the direction of the promotional materials, then cutting from the source ruleset to reassign development resources seems like the most logical choice. In fact, I expect that CBP's weakest parts will be where it tries to pay lip service to the tabletop system rather than just roll with its Action-RPG core.

 

[DalekFlay]

As far as I'm concerned, I'd consider CBP a complete success if it managed to deliver an open-world Deus Ex, but even that's not really a viable prospect. Look at Mankind Divided, which was superb in its own right and had all the production resources a contemporary AAA title can claim, and still the developers had to resort to some clever sleight-of-hand to build it, wherein you visit Prague on three separate occasions. Each visit just different enough to stay interesting, but the bulk of the environment assets were shared between these three massive "levels." Even with CDPR's greater resources, I doubt they'd be able to deliver a dynamic open world with the same level of density and detail.

To be fair Prague in Mankind Divided is very developed and detailed, and its zones probably add up to the same size as both of Human Revolution's cities. Still I agree with what you're saying. Open world design on this scale requires a ton of copy and paste bullshit, so there's no way every area has the detail of a Deus Ex. However if the bigger missions take place in areas with that kind of design, and feel more like Deus Ex than smaller side content and random street travel, then I think that's a success.

 

[Latelistener]

People are kind of hinting to you to keep your expectations in check about the game (despite developers' words about certain features), yet they expect open world Deus Ex. Seriously?

Creating an immersive sim is a whole new level of game development, and the Witcher series never even had a proper stealth mechanic, not even saying about a good systemic / emergent gameplay.

I haven't played Mankind Divided, but Human Revolution wasn't an immersive sim (or a very basic one) because developers simply didn't understand the essence of the original game and didn't have the right kind of talent or experience. I liked the game, but being able to use different approaches for certain tasks is just a small part of the philosophy.

 

[Yosharian]

Nobody has the right talent or experience anymore. Innovation in the industry is fucking dead.

 

[Harthwain]

You're likely correct, but I think a lot of people have some very slanted expectations for what Cyperpunk 2077 is meant to be. I don't see the problem with an open-world Action-RPG like this shedding tabletop elements because I never assumed CDPR were going for "Cyberpunk 2020 but with raytracing instead of pencils."

Cyberpunk 2077 being a video game adaptation of Cyberpunk 2020 (and therefore not 1:1 translation) was to be expected. That's not the problem. Not sure why people keep bringing up this.

The problem is they keep shedding tabletop elements all the time over time, and for bullshit reasons. Why you can't develop cyberpsychosis (or even some adverse effects)? Not because tabletop elements aren't compatibile with it, but because they don't want player to, because of the story. Same goes for forcing implants on the player. I am of the opinion that this could easily became an achievement - you know, The Meatbag, style one - and 95% of people would still pack enhancements on themselves on their first/second run, because enhancements are cool. Some people would even have to balance the cyberpsychosis aspect. But no, you can't have it. Period.

People are kind of hinting to you to keep your expectations in check about the game (despite developers' words about certain features), yet they expect open world Deus Ex. Seriously?

Creating an immersive sim is a whole new level of game development, and the Witcher series never even had a proper stealth mechanic, not even saying about a good systemic / emergent gameplay.

I haven't played Mankind Divided, but Human Revolution wasn't an immersive sim (or a very basic one) because developers simply didn't understand the essence of the original game and didn't have the right kind of talent or experience. I liked the game, but being able to use different approaches for certain tasks is just a small part of the philosophy.

I think they meant "Deus Ex", but as in "Deus Ex: Human Revolution/Minkind Divided". Not the original Deus Ex.

 

[Riddler]

How many decades must go by before humans learn to stop expecting adaptations to other mediums to be identical to the source medium?

n+1, obviously.

 

[Gargaune]

To be fair Prague in Mankind Divided is very developed and detailed, and its zones probably add up to the same size as both of Human Revolution's cities. Still I agree with what you're saying. Open world design on this scale requires a ton of copy and paste bullshit, so there's no way every area has the detail of a Deus Ex. However if the bigger missions take place in areas with that kind of design, and feel more like Deus Ex than smaller side content and random street travel, then I think that's a success.

Oh, absolutely, I wasn't having a dig at Prague, I thought it was fantastic and the best part of the game, all three tours. I was just using it to illustrate how resource-intensive it is to create a Deus Ex experience to modern AAA standards - the Montreal crew tried with DX3, some things worked, others less so, and with the benefit of that experience they realised they had to be smarter about their resources to improve in DX4.

People are kind of hinting to you to keep your expectations in check about the game (despite developers' words about certain features), yet they expect open world Deus Ex. Seriously?

Creating an immersive sim is a whole new level of game development, and the Witcher series never even had a proper stealth mechanic, not even saying about a good systemic / emergent gameplay.

I haven't played Mankind Divided, but Human Revolution wasn't an immersive sim (or a very basic one) because developers simply didn't understand the essence of the original game and didn't have the right kind of talent or experience. I liked the game, but being able to use different approaches for certain tasks is just a small part of the philosophy.

Actually, the opposite - it appears that "open-world Deus Ex" is the pie-in-the-sky aspiration, but you should temper your expectations because that's not likely feasible from a production standpoint, even with CDPR's massive workforce. The closer it gets to that ideal, the better, but I don't think any of us expect it to meet the standard.

Sidenote and also in response to Harthwain, Mankind Divided is a much stronger showing than Human Revolution and well worth checking out. Yes, of course the original is still the best, but DX4 got close enough that I have no problem lumping them together as "Deus Ex" for the purposes of this conversation.

Cyberpunk 2077 being a video game adaptation of Cyberpunk 2020 (and therefore not 1:1 translation) was to be expected. That's not the problem. Not sure why people keep bringing up this.

The problem is they keep shedding tabletop elements all the time over time, and for bullshit reasons. Why you can't develop cyberpsychosis (or even some adverse effects)? Not because tabletop elements aren't compatibile with it, but because they don't want player to, because of the story. Same goes for forcing implants on the player. I am of the opinion that this could easily became an achievement - you know, The Meatbag, style one - and 95% of people would still pack enhancements on themselves on their first/second run, because enhancements are cool. Some people would even have to balance the cyberpsychosis aspect. But no, you can't have it. Period.

That's just it, I never got the impression that CBP 2077 was meant to be a videogame adaptation of the tabletop source in the same way that Baldur's Gate 3 wants to be an adaptation of D&D 5E, it was billed as an Action-RPG early on. Think of it as analogue to movies "inspired by real events" rather than "based on real events." What I was getting at is that if you're developing a computer port of the tabletop RPG, a comprehensive representation of the character classes is absolutely essential, but that's not a small feat if you're trying to make an Action-RPG based in the Cyberpunk setting and your priorities may legitimately be different.

Other things, such as cyberpsychosis... Yeah, there's no reason they couldn't build some form of it in and it would be great to have it. But that's the reality of game development, shit gets cut, it doesn't mean the final product is doomed to decline. Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, the original Deus Ex was supposed to have a space station mission complete with zero-G combat, but it didn't make it, they had to focus resources on other things. Just be happy Spector didn't add in a penis slider or we might not have had Battery Park.

 

[Harthwain]

That's just it, I never got the impression that CBP 2077 was meant to be a videogame adaptation of the tabletop source in the same way that Baldur's Gate 3 wants to be an adaptation of D&D 5E, it was billed as an Action-RPG early on.

"Advanced RPG mechanics based on Pen&Paper RPG system upgraded to the 2077 setting".

In the beginning (when they announced the project) they talked a lot about how inspired by the PnP CP2020 they were. Notice that as the development went on, there was much less this kind of talk. To the point when there was none. The last time I heard something about Cyberpunk 2077 being connected to PnP was when CDPR tried to sell their "Cyberpunk Red: Jumpstart Kit" by saying how "faithful to the original" they were when making Cyberpunk 2077.

Other things, such as cyberpsychosis... Yeah, there's no reason they couldn't build some form of it in and it would be great to have it. But that's the reality of game development, shit gets cut, it doesn't mean the final product is doomed to decline.

What I am saying is that not all of their decisions can be excused by "CP2077 isn't supposed to be connected to CP2020. It's just the setting. An inspiration". However, even this kind of statement is not quite true, considering what I mentioned above.

 

[Avarize]

Anyone that expected a first person action rpg to be based on a tabletop system is so retarded it boggles the mind.

 

[Quillon]

Fuck Mankind Divided, quit after borefest 3-4 hours.

such as cyberpsychosis... Yeah, there's no reason they couldn't build some form of it

They probably cut it cos making player character optionally go insane would take a lot of work/would require rewriting the story just for that. "some form of it" wouldn't make it justice; its not as easy as limiting cyberware, giving gameplay penalty when exceeding it.

Maybe they could have added a soft limit and if you exceed you get premature story end but that'd be just flavor feature.

 

[Harthwain]

They probably cut it cos making player character optionally go insane would take a lot of work/would require rewriting the story just for that. "some form of it" wouldn't make it justice; its not as easy as limiting cyberware, giving gameplay penalty when exceeding it.

What's wrong with the "Game Over" screen, after you lose control of your character? Just make him pull out a weapon and start killing everybody around, only to be gunned down by the law enforcement.

 

[Quillon]

They probably cut it cos making player character optionally go insane would take a lot of work/would require rewriting the story just for that. "some form of it" wouldn't make it justice; its not as easy as limiting cyberware, giving gameplay penalty when exceeding it.

What's wrong with the "Game Over" screen, after you lose control of your character? Just make him pull out a weapon and start killing everybody around, only to be gunned down by the law enforcement.

Maybe they could have added a soft limit and if you exceed you get premature story end but that'd be just flavor feature.

It'd be a cheap/flavor feature as opposed to PC losing humanity/going gradually insane.

 

[Yosharian]

Sidenote and also in response to Harthwain, Mankind Divided is a much stronger showing than Human Revolution and well worth checking out.

 

[Gargaune]

Fuck Mankind Divided, quit after borefest 3-4 hours.

What's wrong with the "Game Over" screen, after you lose control of your character? Just make him pull out a weapon and start killing everybody around, only to be gunned down by the law enforcement.

Well, that actually would be quite wrong if it worked out that you installed a skullgun and then two hours later you realised that was one implant too many and you got a mandatory Game Over screen. But it wouldn't have to be like that, you could rework it as temporary loss of control and malfunctions coming in more frequently the farther you went over the limit. Kinda like that DX4 video that was linked in here earlier, except with the added bonus of getting the Psycho Squad chasing you if you spazzed out in public. But you'd also need some way to remedy the situation, at least partially, or gamers who don't RTFM (i.e. most of the public) would bitch and moan.

Anyway, as to your earlier point, look, I get it and said so too - not all the cuts excusable as genre reprioritising, but neither are all of these cuts big deals. Some are, some aren't. You've got lists complaining that wall running was removed. And that you can't have multiple apartments. Big whoop. Apparently CBP 2077 will be shit both because it's too much like GTA and because it's not sufficiently like GTA.

 

[Latelistener]

I think they meant "Deus Ex", but as in "Deus Ex: Human Revolution/Minkind Divided". Not the original Deus Ex.

They also said "immersive sim".

Actually, the opposite - it appears that "open-world Deus Ex" is the pie-in-the-sky aspiration, but you should temper your expectations because that's not likely feasible from a production standpoint, even with CDPR's massive workforce. The closer it gets to that ideal, the better, but I don't think any of us expect it to meet the standard.

Sidenote and also in response to Harthwain, Mankind Divided is a much stronger showing than Human Revolution and well worth checking out. Yes, of course the original is still the best, but DX4 got close enough that I have no problem lumping them together as "Deus Ex" for the purposes of this conversation.

I have some serious doubts they actually ever considered Deus Ex as a source for inspiration. I've seen probably most of the gameplay videos and it's just simply isn't there, aside from a few elements here and there that many games borrowed from this kind of game design over the years.

Speaking of Mankind Divided, I'm sure they improved in some areas over the original, but it's not a matter of quality. You either do it, or you don't. Compared to Dishonored, which was actually much closer to the original Deus Ex, Human Revolution has a very limited amount of systemic gameplay. You have to understand what this is to understand the issue.

But that doesn't matter. What matters is that it's hard to imagine how CDPR could produce any kind of immersive sim when they struggle even with basic things like some of the stuff from the source material.

 

[Gargaune]

I have some serious doubts they actually ever considered Deus Ex as a source for inspiration. I've seen probably most of the gameplay videos and it's just simply isn't there, aside from a few elements here and there that many games borrowed from this kind of game design over the years.

Speaking of Mankind Divided, I'm sure they improved in some areas over the original, but it's not a matter of quality. You either do it, or you don't. Compared to Dishonored, which was actually much closer to the original Deus Ex, Human Revolution has a very limited amount of systemic gameplay. You have to understand what this is to understand the issue.

I remember very little of Human Revolution, so I can't argue on that count, but I felt Mankind Divided had reasonable room for emergent gameplay relative to what I'd expect from a Deus Ex title. I do think I recall Dishonored being a bit more ostensibly systemic, but it's hard for me to judge since other aspects of the Arkane's Thief alternative didn't click with me and it's not well stuck in my memory.

But that doesn't matter. What matters is that it's hard to imagine how CDPR could produce any kind of immersive sim when they struggle even with basic things like some of the stuff from the source material.

See, this is what got me rolling over the past couple of pages, I don't agree with the assumption that CDPR's not adhering more closely to the Cyberpunk ruleset is necessarily indicative of a development failure rather than product direction. It could be, but it's not the only possibility. That's about it, essentially.

 

[DalekFlay]

If your standard for "immersive sim" is the original Deus Ex and not much else, then no I doubt this will be an open world "immersive sim." That formula will never be repeated exactly the same for a whole host of reasons I think everyone realizes. However I do think it could be an open world Deus Ex: Human Revolution, though only if they keep the more designed segments to the bigger missions. There's no way a massive open world can be as well designed as an HR level all over.

So we're back to the expectations game... have unrealistic expectations for this playing like a 20 year old game from an entirely different era, or have expectations a mainstream AAA blockbuster game will be "true" to a pen and paper RPG from even earlier, you're going to be disappointed and it's all your fault.

 

[Latelistener]

I remember very little of Human Revolution, so I can't argue on that count, but I felt Mankind Divided had reasonable room for emergent gameplay relative to what I'd expect from a Deus Ex title. I do think I recall Dishonored being a bit more ostensibly systemic, but it's hard for me to judge since other aspects of the Arkane's Thief alternative didn't click with me and it's not well stuck in my memory.

It's funny because Human Revolution is actually much closer to Thief than Dishonored. Also, on highest difficulty setting Jensen will die as fast as any human in real life (i.e. a point-blank buckshot), so your only option is being stealthy most of the game.

See, this is what got me rolling over the past couple of pages, I don't agree with the assumption that CDPR's not adhering more closely to the Cyberpunk ruleset is necessarily indicative of a development failure rather than product direction. It could be, but it's not the only possibility. That's about it, essentially.

I don't know, but I think CDP is choosing the shortest path to success. It's not a bad thing. It's just that the company's image tries to suggest that they're not.

If your standard for "immersive sim" is the original Deus Ex and not much else, then no I doubt this will be an open world "immersive sim." That formula will never be repeated exactly the same for a whole host of reasons I think everyone realizes. However I do think it could be an open world Deus Ex: Human Revolution, though only if they keep the more designed segments to the bigger missions. There's no way a massive open world can be as well designed as an HR level all over.

So we're back to the expectations game... have unrealistic expectations for this playing like a 20 year old game from an entirely different era, or have expectations a mainstream AAA blockbuster game will be "true" to a pen and paper RPG from even earlier, you're going to be disappointed and it's all your fault.

Not really sure where did you get that idea, but now I have a feeling that you have no clue what immersive sim is.

There were more than a few of them over the years. The last one I played is probably Breath of the Wild. It has a lot of going on under its hood, despite cartoonish appearance. Also happened to be a mainstream open-world blockbuster.

If it's Human Revolution you expect, they may be able to deliver that (although there are some doubts regarding level design). Just don't mix it with Deus Ex, as people like me may start to think you expect an immersive sim from them. That's even more futile than expecting 1:1 pen and paper adaptation.

 

[The Wall]

DalekFlay So it was my fault expecting quality RPG and believing to publicly made promises by CDPR in time where amount of trannies per quest is hallmark of good RPG design in eyes of media and AAA devs who slurp any poison that comes from twitter's ass?

Ok, I agree. It was foolish ever expecting anything from CDPR. Their Morrowind was Witcher 1, their Skyrim was Witcher 3. We know what shit comes next. FUCK! I so much fucking hate modernity

 

[Rinslin Merwind]

I so much fucking hate modernity

Ok, this is deserve retarded rating, but maybe I should be patient and compassionate in spirit of old religions and point out path of enlightenment for you - modernity ended in 20th century both in artistic and socially -economic sense, some say in first half and some say in second. Btw it stated in 16th century, so by saying "I hate modernity" you basically hate several centuries of human history, which in itself is irrational. You hate basically a long dead era, with barely any connection to this game. Or if you imply that previous era was better (era that predated Age of Modernity) - you acting just as stupid as commies who rooting for theirs shitty ideology in spite of obvious fact that communism is failure, in your case it's feudalism though.
Right now I quite pessimistic about CR2077, but it does not mean we should be delusional from despair and blame some abstract construct (like term modernity) for shitty product made by actual living people with brains (well, maybe with brains). For false promises should be blamed CDPR and no one else, for low quality of game CDPR and etc.

I maybe wrong , but this game is bound be a huge fucking scandal in one way or another and CDPR has risk of tarnishing their reputation a bit or even completely fall out of people's grace.