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Vapourware Daggerfall Unity isnt Vaporware

Miles Davis or John Coltrane?

  • Miles Davis

    Votes: 41 27.2%
  • John Coltrane

    Votes: 45 29.8%
  • Kenny G (kc response)

    Votes: 65 43.0%

  • Total voters
    151
Unwanted
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,711
Codex Year of the Donut
This game suffers from almost Oblivion-tier level scaling,
*ahem*
Oblivion... i just hate the scaling of mobs like DS2.
Daggerfall has aggressive level scaling, yet it's not something I ever see it criticized for. I wonder if people just don't notice it if it's not pointed out to them or something
How aggressive can it really be if no one notices it?
 

Butter

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2018
Messages
5,476
This game suffers from almost Oblivion-tier level scaling,
*ahem*
Oblivion... i just hate the scaling of mobs like DS2.
Daggerfall has aggressive level scaling, yet it's not something I ever see it criticized for. I wonder if people just don't notice it if it's not pointed out to them or something
How aggressive can it really be if no one notices it?
Mea culpa. I had never played more than 5 hours on one character before.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
52,943
I just finished an unmodded playthrough of Daggerfall Unity, and I very much doubt the experience could've been improved by any of the mods. This game suffers from almost Oblivion-tier level scaling, and it becomes tremendously immersion-breaking after about 5 hours. You can leave a dungeon mid-quest to sell off junk, and when you get back the dungeon is repopulated with the next tier of enemies. By around level 12, generic enemies are dropping daedric weapons. There's also the problem every procgen game runs into, where it has to reuse the same prefab components over and over (even in main quest dungeons). Again, after about 5 hours it becomes really distracting. Unless there are mods to address these two issues, I don't see why anyone would bother.

Daggerfall is the only game where level scaling not only makes sense but is actually mandatory because the content is literally made for you out of thin air.

Oblivion was retarded because it carried this mechanic without understanding why it was there. Level scaling in an hand crafted game makes no sense but when all the content is procedurally generated it's all literally scaled because it's being made out of nothing. That would still be the case even if they limited how far the scaler could go for certain zones because it wouldn't take you long before realizing what the limit is.
 

Üstad

Arcane
Joined
Aug 27, 2019
Messages
5,043
Location
Türkiye
I just finished an unmodded playthrough of Daggerfall Unity, and I very much doubt the experience could've been improved by any of the mods. This game suffers from almost Oblivion-tier level scaling, and it becomes tremendously immersion-breaking after about 5 hours. You can leave a dungeon mid-quest to sell off junk, and when you get back the dungeon is repopulated with the next tier of enemies. By around level 12, generic enemies are dropping daedric weapons. There's also the problem every procgen game runs into, where it has to reuse the same prefab components over and over (even in main quest dungeons). Again, after about 5 hours it becomes really distracting. Unless there are mods to address these two issues, I don't see why anyone would bother.

Daggerfall is the only game where level scaling not only makes sense but is actually mandatory because the content is literally made for you out of thin hair.

Oblivion was retarded because it carried this mechanic without understanding why it was there. Level scaling in an hand crafted game makes no sense but when all the content is procedurally generated it's all literally scaled because it's being made out of nothing. That would still be the case even if they limited how far the scaler could go for certain zones because it wouldn't take you long before realizing what the limit is.
Still there were high level dungeons in Daggerfall so levelling up still made sense.
 

Late Bloomer

Educated
Joined
Apr 7, 2022
Messages
812
I just finished an unmodded playthrough of Daggerfall Unity, and I very much doubt the experience could've been improved by any of the mods. This game suffers from almost Oblivion-tier level scaling, and it becomes tremendously immersion-breaking after about 5 hours. You can leave a dungeon mid-quest to sell off junk, and when you get back the dungeon is repopulated with the next tier of enemies. By around level 12, generic enemies are dropping daedric weapons. There's also the problem every procgen game runs into, where it has to reuse the same prefab components over and over (even in main quest dungeons). Again, after about 5 hours it becomes really distracting. Unless there are mods to address these two issues, I don't see why anyone would bother.

You seem a bit crotchety, but here are some mods that might make your experience better.

https://www.nexusmods.com/daggerfallunity/mods/51
https://www.nexusmods.com/daggerfallunity/mods/69


https://www.nexusmods.com/daggerfallunity/mods/16
https://www.nexusmods.com/daggerfallunity/mods/61
https://www.nexusmods.com/daggerfallunity/mods/59
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
8,967
Funny how I never noticed the level scaling but now that I think about it I recall the same in Arena as well. Talk about being blind to it.

Anyway, this video is TLDW (didn't watch) but here it is.
 
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Funposter

Magister
Joined
Oct 19, 2018
Messages
1,678
Location
Australia
This game suffers from almost Oblivion-tier level scaling
They're really not comparable. Daggerfall's use of proc-gen means that everything needs to be scaled to some extent because it's not like you can go into each dungeon and individually figure out what enemies are carrying which loot. The criticism of Daedric weapons at level 12 also falls a bit flat, because Daggerfall's effective level range is smaller than Oblivion's, and also because the potency, rarity and nature of Daedric weapons hadn't yet been codified - the manual simply refers to it as a "refined form of Ebony" and Ebony itself is simply "very rare and heavy". Those still hold true. Even when Daedric weapons are spawning they aren't exactly a hugely common occurrence as everything below them still spawns more frequently. As for my statement about the level ranges, you're approaching endgame in Daggerfall at approximately level 14. The three strongest enemies in the game, the Daedra Lord, Vampire Ancient and Ancient Lich are levels 20, 20 and 21 respectively. Humanoid spellcaster enemies stop "learning" new spells at Level 18. There is an absolute max Level of 32 for the character if you build and distribute points correctly at character creation. Stronger enemies (of the type described) can begin spawning as low as Level 6.

In contrast to this, in Oblivion, Daedric weapons and armour begin spawning at Level 20. However, this is in a game with an effective level cap of 30 and a maximum level cap of 53 if you build a really terrible character and don't abused the ability to lose skill points by going to prison. The highest level at which new enemies spawn in Oblivion is 26 when the regular Lich begins spawning, and I say 30 is the effective level cap because that's when certain levelled quest rewards achieve their final form. Furthermore, Oblivion's strict level scaling operates using level ranges for spawns, meaning that a regular Lich will never randomly spawn before Level 26, and all spawns are limited to the player's level minus 8. This is what results in the phenomenon where Level 30 characters never see anything spawning except for Minotaur Lords, Ogres, Liches, Xivilai etc. because as the player levels up, enemies are simply culled from the list of possible spawns. Daggerfall does not do this, and even at Level 20 you will continue to encounter trash enemies in all manner of dungeons. The "PC Level - 8" thing is also what results in Bandits and Marauders wearing nothing but Glass and Daedric armour, and wielding almost exclusively Daedric weapons once you level up high enough. Armour quality is staggered to spawn at Levels 1, 3, 6, 10, 15, 20 iirc and weapons are something like 1, 2, 4, 6, 9, 16, 20.

So part of the point here is that Level 12 in Daggerfall is not equivalent to Level 12 in Oblivion and a direct comparison can't be made there. Also Daggerfall's level scaling will never be remotely close to Oblivion's on the basis that creatures have a defined maximum HP and damage stat, unlike in Oblivion where Ogres have a HP of 26*(level - 3) meaning that they have 702 HP at the effective max level in a game where the most powerful enchanted weapons are doing approximately 40 damage per hit overall. Nothing in Daggerfall is ever remotely close to requiring 20 hits from a player to kill, whereas it's commonplace in endgame Oblivion.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
52,943
As i recall, Daggerfall has a tendency to throw in more powerful enemy types as you go further along in level. No rat with the HP of a dragon.
 
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Funposter

Magister
Joined
Oct 19, 2018
Messages
1,678
Location
Australia
As i recall, Daggerfall has a tendency to throw in more power enemy types as you go further along in level.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is how it worked too. You definitely start to see more Vampire Ancients in crypts as you level up, but the lower tier stuff never gets entirely removed ala Oblivion with the "PC level - 8" thing. Whether the game actively spawns more though, I'm not sure. It would make sense, but Morrowind also uses levelled lists to spawn enemies and those ones simply grow in variety as you level up, so a Golden Saint and a Scamp always have the same chance of spawning at Level 25, but the Golden Saint never spawns at Level 5.

No rat with the HP of a dragon.
This never happened in Oblivion. Only the strongest enemies in a given category would have scaling HP - so Ogres and Minotaur Lords for Monsters; Liches, Nether Liches and Gloom Wraiths for Undead; Xivilai for Daedra and then all generic, hostile NPCs such as Bandits, Marauders etc. which also includes Dremora Valkynaz. The big problem was that the game suffered from HP bloat, so the HP gain for new varieties of enemies (Skeleton->Skeleton Guardian->Skeleton Hero) or entirely new enemies (Timer Wolf->Boar->Mountain Lion) would outpace the DPS gain by even the most optimized builds with the best equipment available and the jumps in difficulty from the levelled lists being so strictly tiered was often enormous. Trolls with 80 HP spawning at Level 8 jump up to Will-o-the-Wisps with 220 HP at Level 11. It's bonkers.

I do, however, know that you've been playing Elden Ring lately and I'm pretty sure that the Frenzied Giant Rats in the Consecrated Snowfield have more HP than Flying Dragon Agheel.
 

Valdetiosi

Scholar
Joined
Apr 18, 2016
Messages
214
Location
Finland
Well, i never played Oblivion so i'm just going by hear say lmao.

This is how misinformation is born, like that one poster who said Oblivion doesn't have spellmaking system. It also contradicts with "at high level you only encounter high level enemies", and rats aren't exactly high level enemies.

Back on Daggerfall, I don't think I can say it enough, but I love the character creation on it, and I'm puzzled why no modder has tried to implement it to recent installments. Class advantages/disadvantages, distributing your starting attributes, generated background questions that shapes your stats and starting equipment and editing reputations with few factions. The only things I have found are these two mods.
 
Unwanted
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,711
Codex Year of the Donut
That's because the original was glitchy as shit.
I get the feeling that people who shit on DFU either don't remember or are unaware of just how buggy it is.
DFU has quite a few features that either flat out didn't work or were hilariously bugged in the original. e.g., the dodging skill in Daggerfall decreases the chance for you to hit enemies. Many skills were flat out unimplemented or didn't work as they were supposed to.
 

mastroego

Arcane
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
9,736
Location
Italy
Still, level scaling, though.
That's almost a deal breaker.
ARE there mods that deal with that?
 

wishbonetail

Learned
Joined
Oct 18, 2021
Messages
622
In Daggerfall not only enemies levels are scaled, but if you get lucky enough to find a Bow of Ultimate Badassery, you can get unlucky enough to be pwned with the same bow later.
 

Luzur

Good Sir
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
39,616
Location
Swedish Empire
Why you guys even play the game is beyond me LOL pages after pages of complaining
 

Valdetiosi

Scholar
Joined
Apr 18, 2016
Messages
214
Location
Finland
Why you guys even play the game is beyond me LOL pages after pages of complaining

For the female sprites.

DF-quest-Business_With_Vampires_05.jpg
 

mastroego

Arcane
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
9,736
Location
Italy
Why you guys even play the game is beyond me LOL pages after pages of complaining
I'm just trying to evaluate the merit of the revised game before going all the way with modding it.
I've been more or less following the thread up until now but somehow I never thought about level scaling.
Which is a huge turn-down, especially for a Requiem fan.

I'd be interested in hearing more opinions about this. Is level scaling in Daggerfall somehow more tolerable than it was in vanilla Oblivion or Skyrim?
 

wishbonetail

Learned
Joined
Oct 18, 2021
Messages
622
I'd be interested in hearing more opinions about this. Is level scaling in Daggerfall somehow more tolerable than it was in vanilla Oblivion or Skyrim?
The level scaling in Oblivion is THE most obnoxious example in gaming history. Eventually, if you play on hardest, it leads to nearly immortal enemies, with summons and reflection gear become the only means of damage dealing. Also damaging spells in combination with paralyze can help in this regard but it is still tedious. Game becomes more interesting if you never sleep and level up.
Fallout 3 is a close contender with its albino scorpions, mutant overlords and scaled dlc rednecks. No weapons aside bare fists can hold out in that fights, as everything else breaks on a single overlord. Again, game becomes tedious on higher levels and level up screens pop up automatically, so you cannot ignore them.
Other Beth games have far more lethal combat, so you still will be one shotting everyone scaling or not.
 

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