From Software Dark Souls 3

[PorkyThePaladin]

Playing Dark Souls 3, and it's definitely the worst of the Dark Souls games. They've ruined every tactical combat mechanic to turn it into a fast paced, reflex based popamole.

Every powerful enemy has infinite stamina, and a constant, never ending stream of attacks. You, on the other hand, well block 2 hits from a Lothric Knight, and your stamina is gone and you are staggered. Not even going to talk about that bullshit Boreal knight at the bottom of the Church tower. Seems like the preferred way to defeat it is via the elevator. GJ From Software!

They have ruined parry of course, with the fucking delay, and here most enemies have alternating super fast and super slow attacks. Guess wrong, and you are half dead.

The best I have come up with so far is using a Kite Shield to block regular enemies and large bosses, and roll in between, and use a small shield to parry the fast spammers (Lothric Kngihts, Master with Uchigatana, etc). But overall, just not a very fun system at all, unless you are into reflex based games.

 

[Hassar]

Playing Dark Souls 3, and it's definitely the worst of the Dark Souls games. They've ruined every tactical combat mechanic to turn it into a fast paced, reflex based popamole.

Every powerful enemy has infinite stamina, and a constant, never ending stream of attacks. You, on the other hand, well block 2 hits from a Lothric Knight, and your stamina is gone and you are staggered. Not even going to talk about that bullshit Boreal knight at the bottom of the Church tower. Seems like the preferred way to defeat it is via the elevator. GJ From Software!

They have ruined parry of course, with the fucking delay, and here most enemies have alternating super fast and super slow attacks. Guess wrong, and you are half dead.

The best I have come up with so far is using a Kite Shield to block regular enemies and large bosses, and roll in between, and use a small shield to parry the fast spammers (Lothric Kngihts, Master with Uchigatana, etc). But overall, just not a very fun system at all, unless you are into reflex based games.

I agree. I can play and replay Dark Souls I an innumerable amount of times. It doesn’t get old until the second half starts. But Dark Souls III is just a slog.

 

[Silverfish]

If it's any help at all, DS3 is a hundred times easier if you forego a shield altogether. Find some decent armor and a weapon with the perseverance skill (I'm pretty sure the generic mace has it) that gives temporary super armor and just roll / tank your way through everything.

 

[Stormcrowfleet]

I agree that DS1 > DS3.

Btw anybody need any help with any of the bosses in either DS1 or DS3 ? I have time to spare sometimes and I really like coop in general. I'm a sunbro at heart.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Well, I found my first tower shield in Wood of Crucifiction, it definitely improved things. It only blocks 84% of physical damage, but its 63 stability is a big step up from Knight Shield, not only is it harder for tough mobs to stagger me and whittle my stamina down, but they get staggered on it too now, leading to easy counter attacks.

Still the speed and infinite stamina of some mobs is ridiculous.

Found twin daggers too, with Quick Step skill, they are fun. You can basically dodge around everything in a much better way than rolling, and spam their super fast dual attacks. But FP points run out super fast, i only have one flask for it so far.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

I still like the world design and the general gameplay loop of DS3, but the combat is so illogical. There is no approach that works consistently, in my experience, so you have to switch things up all the time. In some games that wouldn't be an issue, but in a Dark Souls game, you should be able to develop a single build and stick with it.

I like to use my tower shield against regular enemies, because it's highly effective against them, whereas parrying and dodging can often get you in trouble. But against tougher enemies it's useless. A black knight just powers through it, staggering you in a couple of regular strikes. The ninja guy in front of the temple of the deep literally either kicks the shield away or does the upsweep attack that knocks it aside and staggers you every single time. Against these guys, parrying is still best.

 

[NJClaw]

If you want a shield that can block every single attack from every single enemy in the game, you need to look for the best greatshields in the game. Your best bet is the Moaning Shield, with 100% physical reduction and 77 stability (82 at +5). Eygon of Carim drops it, so you just need to reach the undead settlement.

If you add Magic Shield (it requires just 10 intelligence), you reach 100 stability and can block any combo literally forever.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

I don't know why I keep playing DS3, it's so bad. Every 2nd fight is completely retarded. I gave up on the shields already, even tower shields are fairly useless, as most enemies just punch through them or kick you, or stagger you after you lose enough stamina. So just running around with a great mace 2-handed and rolling/poising through shit. It kinda works, but since the game throws all kinds of OP shit at you, you are always dying stupid deaths.

Armor is beyond useless, most tough mobs one/two-shot me to death. There was one sob with almost infinite attacks in Farron Keep, holy crap, I rolled about 20 times straight before I was able to finally kill it. Truly a popamole title.

I think even From Software realized how stupid it was and went back to the much cooler parrying mechanic in Sekiro.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I'll never understand people who think the parry mechanic is a good thing. Go play some fucking DDR if timing button presses over and over is so exciting. I'd rather see a game where different enemies require different tactics instead of being able to beat everything by holding block 24/7 or parrying everything forever.

 

[The_Mask]

I'll never understand people who think the parry mechanic is a good thing. [...]I'd rather see a game where different enemies require different tactics

You just sounded like the biggest fucking dumbfuck that graced this website.

 

[Cryomancer]

I'll never understand people who think the parry mechanic is a good thing. Go play some fucking DDR if timing button presses over and over is so exciting. I'd rather see a game where different enemies require different tactics instead of being able to beat everything by holding block 24/7 or parrying everything forever.

Well said. Dark Souls had a interesting combat. You can block, roll, parry and the ""best"" depend the enemy. You will need a hell of stability and stamina to block a giant club from a house sized demon , parry can trivialize some fights but not all fights and roll despite unrealistic is a safe way to avoid most problems.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

Parries are both a defense and punishing mechanic. So yeah, they are a good thing.
The problem with parries in Dark Souls is that they are easy to pull off, too powerful and have barely restrictions.
Also you can boil down every action system to timing inputs, specially the ones relating to melee combat.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

If they wanted to fix parrying being too powerful in DS1, they should've nerfed the counterattack after the parry, not the parry itself. If you had to parry enemies multiple times to do enough damage, that would be a fun, challenging system, kinda like Sekiro.

Instead, they nerfed the parrying mechanic itself in DS2, by introducing parry delay frames, so now you had to anticipate parries instead of reacting, and in DS3, most enemies have such varying attacks (super fast and super slow attacks), it makes parries useless against most enemies (except the super hyper non-stop attacking types like various knights).

I'll never understand people who think the parry mechanic is a good thing. Go play some fucking DDR if timing button presses over and over is so exciting. I'd rather see a game where different enemies require different tactics instead of being able to beat everything by holding block 24/7 or parrying everything forever.

It was never just a reaction thing in DS1, at least if like me, you don't have the best reflexes in the world. Because enemies had unwinding attacks, you had to learn different enemies' patterns to know when to parry. All in all, it was a solid combat mechanic. In DS3, you still have rolling, which functions similarly to parrying in DS1, but is a lot more mindless (a lot of times, even if you don't time things right, you can still roll out of danger, depending on enemy), and spammy. Since you can perform multiple rolls in a row, and since enemies arent incapacitated by a successful roll, it just leads to a spam of rolls and attacks, which is what I mean by popamole.

 

[Black Angel]

I'll never understand people who think the parry mechanic is a good thing. Go play some fucking DDR if timing button presses over and over is so exciting. I'd rather see a game where different enemies require different tactics instead of being able to beat everything by holding block 24/7 or parrying everything forever.

You say that as if Soulsborne and Sekiro are all about only those, when the truth is those are an option one can have (and many do) when playing these games. It's like complaining you get to spam Harm in Arcanum, which is but one of the many options one can choose when playing the game.

You get myriad of options like roll-dodging, blocking, parrying, using magic/pyromancy/miracles in Dark Souls, plethora of weapons which behave very differently from one another in Bloodborne, and then you get to jumpstomp sweeping attacks, mikiri countering thrusting attacks, step-dodging grab attacks, combat arts + shinobi prosthetic tools in Sekiro. Can one abuse only one of these many mechanics to their heart's content, and should the devs allow it? Absolutely yes. Is that bad? Absolutely not.

 

[cvv]

If they wanted to fix parrying being too powerful in DS1, they should've nerfed the counterattack after the parry, not the parry itself. If you had to parry enemies multiple times to do enough damage, that would be a fun, challenging system, kinda like Sekiro.

Exactly this. Problem with parry timings is there's no such thing as easy or hard. We all have different reaction abilities. DS1 may seem easy for some, challenging for others. So the solution absolutely is changing riposte damage, not parry timings.

Btw they tried to make parries less "trivial" by shortening parry windows in Nioh. I don't think my reactions are bad but for me personally Nioh parry windows are pure autism. And ofc you'll have heaps of people telling you "I can parry in Nioh every single time". Which just proves my point.

 

[Damned Registrations]

IMO the parry mechanic is best implemented when you need to predict an attack to pull it off. The perfect example being blocking the first couple hits of an R1 spammer and then parrying a hit to fuck him over. And even then, there should be plenty of attacks you simply can't parry. If someone is swinging horizontally across your waist with two hands, parrying makes no sense; what are you going to do, deflect it into your legs or chest instead? The biggest problem with souls combat is that a lot of options weren't really relevant. Dodging towards someone's side was pretty much the optimal movement every time. The backstep was basically useless aside from as a rare mindgame move. Rolling backward only mattered for rare lingering boss attacks. And most short range weapons lacked the sort of lunging distance closing attack they needed to be useful the way they would be irl. Instead you had to roll forward and then swing just like you could with a fucking zweihander- except with the zwei you could then catch the enemy even if they rolled away.

Can one abuse only one of these many mechanics to their heart's content, and should the devs allow it? Absolutely yes. Is that bad? Absolutely not.

I disagree completely on this. If it doesn't matter how you fight then your combat is shit and the player may as well just be invincible because it's just there to make him look cool.

Since you can perform multiple rolls in a row, and since enemies arent incapacitated by a successful roll, it just leads to a spam of rolls and attacks, which is what I mean by popamole.

I don't really see a difference between this and blocking. If you switched the roles (you hold down a 'dodge' button and automatically didn't get hit by shit while your stamina went down, and blocking had a timing window and never made enemies recoil) it wouldn't really change anything. Either way you're alternating back and forth between offense and defense as the situation permits. Rolling is just more silly visually when it goes on for too long.

 

[Cryomancer]

IMO you should only be able to parry ""light"" weapons. Axes, Halberds, Poillaxes, Hammers, Clubs(...) should't be "pariable", but on sekiro, you solve everything by parrying and deflecting. You can deflect anything from musket projectile to a 50kg warhammer wielded by a 50T demon. I understand when games ignore realism for the sake of gameplay, eg - imagine if lightning spells had IRL lightning speed on dark souls. Would be almost impossible to defeat clerics on PvP. But making parrying solving everything not only makes zero sense but also makes every encounter fell the same...

 

[Deflowerer]

If they wanted to fix parrying being too powerful in DS1, they should've nerfed the counterattack after the parry, not the parry itself. If you had to parry enemies multiple times to do enough damage, that would be a fun, challenging system, kinda like Sekiro.

Exactly this. Problem with parry timings is there's no such thing as easy or hard. We all have different reaction abilities. DS1 may seem easy for some, challenging for others. So the solution absolutely is changing riposte damage, not parry timings.

Btw they tried to make parries less "trivial" by shortening parry windows in Nioh. I don't think my reactions are bad but for me personally Nioh parry windows are pure autism. And ofc you'll have heaps of people telling you "I can parry in Nioh every single time". Which just proves my point.

I'd say Nioh has pretty good balance between blocking, parrying and rolling. Rolling invincibility frames aren't as outrageously lenient as in Souls, parry windows are decent but not too easy and blocking is very useful.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

I'd rather see a game where different enemies require different tactics instead of being able to beat everything by holding block 24/7 or parrying everything forever.

You say that as if Soulsborne and Sekiro are all about only those

Sekiro literally boils down to that.

and then you get to jumpstomp sweeping attacks, mikiri countering thrusting attacks, step-dodging grab attacks, combat arts + shinobi prosthetic tools in Sekiro.

All of which have extremely specific uses, and don't work outside of that.

I don't think my reactions are bad but for me personally Nioh parry windows are pure autism.

If can't deal with Nioh's parry windows, then your reaction time is definetively bad.

 

[The_Mask]

IMO the parry mechanic is best implemented when you need to predict an attack to pull it off.

Please take your meds before posting on rpgcodex, pls n ty

 

[Black Angel]

I disagree completely on this. If it doesn't matter how you fight then your combat is shit and the player may as well just be invincible because it's just there to make him look cool.

That isn't even what I'm saying, how come you get to this conclusion? Because eyeshots exists in Fallout, in doesn't matter if one chose to use other aimed attacks to, say, cripple a Deathclaw's leg? Because bolas exists in Age of Decadence, it doesn't matter if one chose to use aim: torso attack to have a chance to ignore a heavily armored target's DR? Because full-auto assault rifle exists in Underrail, it doesn't matter if one chose to use aimed shot instead?

Is that really all that matters to you? That an OP option, or rather a seemingly OP option exists at all? cvv is right here. Despite the existence of an OP option, in context of Soulsborne-Sekiro it doesn't matter because one's reaction speed is different to the others. I also agree that instead of tinkering with the parrying itself, it was the riposte that should be tinkered to accommodate more varied playstyle. In case of Soulsborne, make it so a certain build would be able to score a high-damage riposte, while others who didn't specialize wouldn't be able to deal as much damage. Sekiro took a more different approach, like Porky pointed out, you need to fill up an enemy's posture bar by alternating between attacking and deflecting (and most other times, mikiri countering-jumpstomping-counter attacking after step dodging) before you can do a deathblow.

Sekiro literally boils down to that.

Ur mom literally boils down to that.

and then you get to jumpstomp sweeping attacks, mikiri countering thrusting attacks, step-dodging grab attacks, combat arts + shinobi prosthetic tools in Sekiro.

All of which have extremely specific uses, and don't work outside of that.

Define 'outside of that'. If you meant against trash mobs who only have 1-2 types of attacks, then yeah, jumpstomping/mikiri countering/step-dodging/combat arts/prosthetic tools doesn't exists.

 

[RoSoDude]

If they wanted to fix parrying being too powerful in DS1, they should've nerfed the counterattack after the parry, not the parry itself. If you had to parry enemies multiple times to do enough damage, that would be a fun, challenging system, kinda like Sekiro.

Exactly this. Problem with parry timings is there's no such thing as easy or hard. We all have different reaction abilities. DS1 may seem easy for some, challenging for others. So the solution absolutely is changing riposte damage, not parry timings.

This is literally true of any form of difficulty. Dodge rolling depends on reaction times too. The fact that some mechanical skills will be easier for some players and harder for others isn't the issue. What I think you're trying to get at is that parrying tends to devolve into a timing minigame separate from the rest of combat, which cannot be said of other skill-based mechanics. If you're dodging or blocking, you have to contend with enemy attack windows, multiple enemies, positioning, stamina, and so on. While these aspects are still relevant to parrying if you fail (and in fact can be particularly punishing), a successful parry removes the need for the player to worry about any of that other stuff since you're guaranteed an instant high-damage riposte that gives you ample immunity frames. So the decision to parry depends more on the player's reaction timing than their skill at combat generally, though it can still be a tactical consideration with its own risk/reward similar to dodging or blocking if the player's timing isn't as good.

As such, I would argue that the solution to overpowered DS1 parrying isn't to throw up your hands and nerf the reward, it's to take the approach DS2 took -- integrating parrying more into general combat. The parry windows have a startup delay so they require more prediction and that's a good thing (DS1's instant parry frames are way too cheesy, almost on the level of backstabs), but the main improvements to parrying in DS2 come from the way ripostes work. On a successful parry, you have to attack either right as they're starting to fall over to get a standing riposte, or after they've fallen to the ground to get a ground riposte. It's possible to attack too early for either window and lose your riposte altogether, which means that a successful parry requires an additional risk/reward timing decision from the player where other enemies, positioning, stamina etc. are once again relevant. Riposting now also grants damage reduction instead of full immunity, and I believe the defense frames are lower in number as well. They didn't just make parrying harder in DS2, they actually made it interact with the other combat mechanics. From the looks of it, DS3 took the parry window changes from DS2 and threw away its improvements to riposting, which certainly makes the mechanic harder because of the spastic enemy attack windups, but doesn't actually gain anything in depth compared to DS1's parry cheese.

 

[Black Angel]

it's to take the approach DS2 took -- integrating parrying more into general combat. The parry windows have a startup delay so they require more prediction and that's a good thing (DS1's instant parry frames are way too cheesy, almost on the level of backstabs), but the main improvements to parrying in DS2 come from the way ripostes work. On a successful parry, you have to attack either right as they're starting to fall over to get a standing riposte, or after they've fallen to the ground to get a ground riposte. It's possible to attack too early for either window and lose your riposte altogether, which means that a successful parry requires an additional risk/reward timing decision from the player where other enemies, positioning, stamina etc. are once again relevant. Riposting now also grants damage reduction instead of full immunity, and I believe the defense frames are lower in number as well. They didn't just make parrying harder in DS2, they actually made it interact with the other combat mechanics. From the looks of it, DS3 took the parry window changes from DS2 and threw away its improvements to riposting, which certainly makes the mechanic harder because of the spastic enemy attack windups, but doesn't actually gain anything in depth compared to DS1's parry cheese.

This is cool and all for PvP, I guess? But having played PvE only on DS2 + DLCs, it's such a chore trying to play with parry + riposte in that game to the point of obnoxiousness. I haven't tried online play of the game because my copy is scavenged from the Seven Seas, so DS2 being the best game for PvP is something I only heard of, and not experienced myself.

 

[Average Manatee]

This is literally true of any form of difficulty. Dodge rolling depends on reaction times too. The fact that some mechanical skills will be easier for some players and harder for others isn't the issue. What I think you're trying to get at is that parrying tends to devolve into a timing minigame separate from the rest of combat, which cannot be said of other skill-based mechanics. If you're dodging or blocking, you have to contend with enemy attack windows, multiple enemies, positioning, stamina, and so on. While these aspects are still relevant to parrying if you fail (and in fact can be particularly punishing), a successful parry removes the need for the player to worry about any of that other stuff since you're guaranteed an instant high-damage riposte that gives you ample immunity frames. So the decision to parry depends more on the player's reaction timing than their skill at combat generally, though it can still be a tactical consideration with its own risk/reward similar to dodging or blocking if the player's timing isn't as good.

This is doubly the issue with enemies that have both extremely long potential attack chains and who have different attack chains that start out with the same moves (which randomly punish you because you can't predict the timing of the next move). Fighting these enemies requires an incredible amount of trial and error to figure out exactly what and when to do so that you end up safe regardless of what the boss tries next and when is safe to attack. But then they have certain moves that are just insanely, absurdly easy to parry which feels like a difficulty cop-out. Learn the timing for just one move, stand at the right distance so that they continually use that move, ez pz boss dead.

 

[RoSoDude]

This is cool and all for PvP, I guess? But having played PvE only on DS2 + DLCs, it's such a chore trying to play with parry + riposte in that game to the point of obnoxiousness. I haven't tried online play of the game because my copy is scavenged from the Seven Seas, so DS2 being the best game for PvP is something I only heard of, and not experienced myself.

I'm talking about the PvE. I didn't do much PvP, though I did parry most of the invaders I met. I found parrying fun and rewarding in DS2 PvE; the parrying dagger was one of my primary combat tools. It was also the only way I scraped through the Ivory King DLC, which I made the mistake of doing first. I parried so often that I actually had to start using repair powder midway between each bonfire.

This is doubly the issue with enemies that have both extremely long potential attack chains and who have different attack chains that start out with the same moves (which randomly punish you because you can't predict the timing of the next move). Fighting these enemies requires an incredible amount of trial and error to figure out exactly what and when to do so that you end up safe regardless of what the boss tries next and when is safe to attack. But then they have certain moves that are just insanely, absurdly easy to parry which feels like a difficulty cop-out. Learn the timing for just one move, stand at the right distance so that they continually use that move, ez pz boss dead.

My excitement to play DS3 grows with each passing day...