From Software Dark Souls 3

[Perkel]

So you like randomness and spammy attacks you can not really adjust to? This fight was even more annoying than the other dozens of mobs spamming their combos in your face.
Ran back to the elevator and went up so the fucker fell to his death chasing me. Don't need shit like this in a souls game. Those big dudes with chainsaws or pots in their hand in undead village? Those beasts in path of whatever with crosses on their back? Those fat missionar chicks in undead village? The knights in High Wall of Lothric? Guess what, they all behave the same. Spam Spam Spam, no kind of strategy or "gitting gud" involved, simply spam.

But muh Miyazaki-san ~

They only spam you if you allow them to spam you. What you want apparently is for them to wait for you behind you shield so you can see that opening you need to come out from behind of your shield and finally strike like in previous DS games.

Stun is there for a reason. If you hit them once you are usually able to do 3-4 swings without problems and safely leave their hit area before they counter attack (which they will do if you try to prolong combo) and if you have low stamina they usually will anihilate you with 3-4 attacks before you will be able to block or dodge.

Still each enemy DOES have way to fight them more easily. eg. those chainsaw dudes are easy to bait into their long combo and you can move safely to their back and kill them no problem. Problem is when you want to use shield costantly with them as they have long combos and they do a lot of stamina damage which means that you won't be able to attack and you will get rekt.

Those fat clerics also have similar situation. They can anihilate you with mace easily if you will stay close to them. But if you keep medium distance you will be able to hop back once and counter in right time chaining two-three-four hits and moving away.

As for that frozen dude, he wiped floor with me several times because i behave like a little bitch instead of being a man. Instead of charging on him head on i tried to circle him and try to look for openings which i couldn't really find because all his attacks were fast were very wide AND weird (attacking back, from side, circling and finally hoping behind me and striking) which were deadly ESPECIALLY since he had status attack which means that the longer i fight him and receive his attacks on shield the harder this fight will become.

This fight actually is when DS3 system completely clicked with me. DS3 is all about distance to enemy. Unlike previous DS games you can't really circle monsters much (unless you bait them into attack) so to find weak spot you need to create it yourself via stun. Backhop which was almost completely useless in DS games now is part of my normal gameplay. It provides good amount of distance management and provides near instant counter.

So in case of this frosty dude i simply tried to be at tip of his range and bait him into attacks i know he would do if i would go straight at him. When he starts his little fast combo i just backhopped waited for his last attack and counter with 3-4 swings rolling away to his back after than and back hopping quickly to keep distance again at his tip of range.

This is why i also had problems with ludix when i started playing DS3. Because i was to reliant on shield and circling and ludix did have broad sweeping attacks (making me hurt via shield) and lot of movement which he changed direction of attack thus negating my circling.

I tried PvP few times already and i already see that people are switching from circling to more Technical based combat aproach of range vs distance.

It isn't completely bloodborne which is even faster but i think it strikes good balance between bloodborne + and - and DS + and - ses. What though i would love would be to remove roll and maki it side step. After playing TW3 it really really sucks to not have it even despite that TW3 combat model wasn't anything special. Sometimes i just want to dodge a little instead of full distance and i can't do that here especially when you fight groups rollings fuck up your distance management (too long) where closing in between two enemies would be better than rolling away because you can't actually roll in properly toward enemies.

 

[Perkel]

Surf Solar cvv artorias, manus, Ornstein & Smough, kalameet, fume knight, Capra demon, sir Alonne and more were some of the best bosses of the previous game and we're all in your face all the time and did the spam style attacks with little room for winding down.

... Literally none of those bosses had any kind of spam attacks, with the notable exception of Manus' combo. Some of them were aggressive, yes, but that's not what we're talking about here. I mean, ffs, Kalameet's longest "combo" is like 2 attacks, how in the world is that spam? Fume Knight is actually the reverse of this kind of enemy design in DS3, as he encourages careful and deliberate roll timing (and often just walking around attacks) rather than mashing the roll button in an effort to escape.

Yeah some of them don't fit for "spam" attacks.

Problem here is that "spam" people like to call here is that they are simply way more agressive than in DS1/2 where after each attack most of monsters had HUGE opening. So you combined circling + behind the shield and you "waited out" attacks learned monster pattern and when you felt "safe" you attacked.

This is why Manus fight in DS1 was so great. Because you couldn't fucking do it this time. You had to grab you balls and go all in instead of waiting for opportunities behind your shield.

In DS3 pattern is different. First of all there is level design which often doesn't give you way to freely test out new mobs because you don't fucking know just what will happen now or maybe something new will came up fucking you up so you usually fight in places where you meet new enemies

Secondly each monster comes with pack of !FUN! moveset that prevents usually people from circling monsters then moveset contains few nasty suprises for people who want to "test out" monster. Like mentioned pot guy who throws at you that pot if you wait long enough, then monsters know how to deal with shielded dudes because their moveset usually comes with moves against shield again we use that pot guy which bashes constantly you effectively sapping out completely your stamina and managing to guard brake you.

So yeah unlike rest of DS games this time testing out monsters if far more harder than earlier and so far at least for me going all in instead of wait out and see seems to be more effective strategy for new monsters (and you meet new monsters constantly every like 15 minutes which is amazing by itself).

Imo designer just studied what people where doing ins DS games earlier and said "you know what ? let's use this against them"

This is why this "SPAM" is prevelent in discussion despite fact that almost each monster will get stuned by most of your attacks effectively stoping them from "spaming" attacks.

 

[toro]

Surf Solar cvv artorias, manus, Ornstein & Smough, kalameet, fume knight, Capra demon, sir Alonne and more were some of the best bosses of the previous game and we're all in your face all the time and did the spam style attacks with little room for winding down.
The weak mobs in DS1 spammed attacks and in DS2 they just threw large amounts of mobs at the player. Seems like DS3 combined the two but I'm not seeing this complaint anywhere else but the codex and it's ironic that I had some of these complaints about DS2 and codexers told me to git gud.

You must be an idiot. Or you don't understand what Surf Solar is saying. Maybe both.

Artorias did not spam.

Manus did not spam.

Ornstein & Smough did not spam. You must be confused because they attacked both at the same time but the player could use the pillars for cover.

Kalameet did not spam.

Fume Knight did not spam

Capra Demon did spam a little. The weakest of the bunch aka an unter-boss. Also the only thing you have got going for your argument.

Sir Alonne did not spam.

Almost all the mentioned bosses could be approached in a tactical way. You could learn their pattern and then destroy them. You cannot do this with the majority of DaS3 bosses.

And for the record :

Spoiler

There are only two bosses in DaS3 which are similar to the old ones are: Old Demon King and Dragonslayer Armour. That's it.

 

[Wolfe]

Almost all the mentioned bosses could be approached in a tactical way. You could learn their pattern and then destroy them. You cannot do this with the majority of DaS3 bosses.

Of course you can. Stop exaggerating.

 

[toro]

So you like randomness and spammy attacks you can not really adjust to? This fight was even more annoying than the other dozens of mobs spamming their combos in your face.
Ran back to the elevator and went up so the fucker fell to his death chasing me. Don't need shit like this in a souls game. Those big dudes with chainsaws or pots in their hand in undead village? Those beasts in path of whatever with crosses on their back? Those fat missionar chicks in undead village? The knights in High Wall of Lothric? Guess what, they all behave the same. Spam Spam Spam, no kind of strategy or "gitting gud" involved, simply spam.

But muh Miyazaki-san ~

They only spam you if you allow them to spam you. What you want apparently is for them to wait for you behind you shield so you can see that opening you need to come out from behind of your shield and finally strike like in previous DS games.

Stun is there for a reason. If you hit them once you are usually able to do 3-4 swings without problems and safely leave their hit area before they counter attack (which they will do if you try to prolong combo) and if you have low stamina they usually will anihilate you with 3-4 attacks before you will be able to block or dodge.

Still each enemy DOES have way to fight them more easily. eg. those chainsaw dudes are easy to bait into their long combo and you can move safely to their back and kill them no problem. Problem is when you want to use shield costantly with them as they have long combos and they do a lot of stamina damage which means that you won't be able to attack and you will get rekt.

Those fat clerics also have similar situation. They can anihilate you with mace easily if you will stay close to them. But if you keep medium distance you will be able to hop back once and counter in right time chaining two-three-four hits and moving away.

As for that frozen dude, he wiped floor with me several times because i behave like a little bitch instead of being a man. Instead of charging on him head on i tried to circle him and try to look for openings which i couldn't really find because all his attacks were fast were very wide AND weird (attacking back, from side, circling and finally hoping behind me and striking) which were deadly ESPECIALLY since he had status attack which means that the longer i fight him and receive his attacks on shield the harder this fight will become.

This fight actually is when DS3 system completely clicked with me. DS3 is all about distance to enemy. Unlike previous DS games you can't really circle monsters much (unless you bait them into attack) so to find weak spot you need to create it yourself via stun. Backhop which was almost completely useless in DS games now is part of my normal gameplay. It provides good amount of distance management and provides near instant counter.

So in case of this frosty dude i simply tried to be at tip of his range and bait him into attacks i know he would do if i would go straight at him. When he starts his little fast combo i just backhopped waited for his last attack and counter with 3-4 swings rolling away to his back after than and back hopping quickly to keep distance again at his tip of range.

This is why i also had problems with ludix when i started playing DS3. Because i was to reliant on shield and circling and ludix did have broad sweeping attacks (making me hurt via shield) and lot of movement which he changed direction of attack thus negating my circling.

I tried PvP few times already and i already see that people are switching from circling to more Technical based combat aproach of range vs distance.

It isn't completely bloodborne which is even faster but i think it strikes good balance between bloodborne + and - and DS + and - ses. What though i would love would be to remove roll and maki it side step. After playing TW3 it really really sucks to not have it even despite that TW3 combat model wasn't anything special. Sometimes i just want to dodge a little instead of full distance and i can't do that here especially when you fight groups rollings fuck up your distance management (too long) where closing in between two enemies would be better than rolling away because you can't actually roll in properly toward enemies.

You are a genius. Personally I admit it never crossed my mind. /sarcasm

Fuck off with your apologetic bullshit.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

For the record, none of the bosses I've met really spam, it's more of a problem with normal enemies. Will reply to Perkel in more detail later today.

 

[Wolfe]

For the record, none of the bosses I've met really spam, it's more of a problem with normal enemies. Will reply to Perkel in more detail later today.

Exactly. Except for Pontiff, Champion Gundyr and maybe Abyss Watchers, none of the bosses have long streaks of attacks that could be called spamming. I've had no issues with recognizing patterns and adapting to them.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Well, I guess the second phase of Crystal Sage could be considered spam, but there the solution is to be super aggressive rather than trying to dodge stuff.

 

[Jick Magger]

I haven't really had any issues with bosses, most of them have been suitably challenging and satisfying, and avoid resorting to cheap tactics (though my lock on had a bit of trouble keeping up with The Consumed King's second form, but lock-on's always been fiddly in regards to quicker enemies). Only real issue I've had is with mobs being ridiculously strong, really hard to stagger, and fond of using spammy attacks or really long combos, especially in conjunction with a mate standing next to them guarding with a shield, which guarantees that any attack you attempt will hit the shield, stagger you, and open you up to attack from both enemies.

As I said before in regards to them: beating them just doesn't feel satisfying because you're not really using any strategy behind it, you're just waiting for them to stop their spammy combo, then jumping in and hoping to god that your spammy combo will kill them before you run out of endurance, and god help you if you're fighting an enemy who'll just ignore the stagger and continue trying to hit you anyway.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

On that note, does anyone know what poise does in this game? Haven't really noticed any difference between wearing medium and no armor. Some enemies are stagger-resistant, while others have hyperarmor on select attacks, which is really annoying in combination with long, fast combos.

 

[toro]

Almost all the mentioned bosses could be approached in a tactical way. You could learn their pattern and then destroy them. You cannot do this with the majority of DaS3 bosses.

Of course you can. Stop exaggerating.

Right. Tell me that again after I successfully dodge Gundyr Champion 8+ times in a row and then he still comes after me. You see, there was not recovery from his combo. Maybe the outcome could have been different if I rolled in another direction after the 3rd attack or the 4th. Who knows? I cannot see the future.

Or when the Dancing Cunt doesn't stop rotating. 7 or 8 times !? Again, how is possible!? She crossed the entire room and I was stuck in a bench. I know, the tactical approach is to destroy all benches when the fight begins.

Or that Weasel from the bridge which is basically moving in spasms. The strategy was roll roll roll spam attack roll roll roll ... awesome fight. And the nice part is that, she has a fatality attack if you go to far from her. Homing fatality attack.

Or when the Dragonslayer Armour starts three different combos with the exact same wind-up move. Again, I cannot see the future.

Or when the most retarded mob jumps from a stair, makes an u-turn in the air and then he successfully finishes with a knife in my back.

Of course I'm exaggerating cause maybe ... just maybe ... we can cut the crap about this game. "tactical" is the same word but it has a different meaning in DaS/DaS2 and in DaS3.

The thing is: I've finished the game and I'm not sure killing a boss was my achievement or it was blind luck. This is DaS3 "tactical" approach where luck can count for 50% of your success.

Also at some point I felt like playing Mortal Kombat. There was a boss which kept me in air for a couple of hits and the Gundyr guy was round kicking me in mid air. Great game. Best beat'em up game I've played in long time.


EDIT: Also spoiler for you, the game is cheating. When I teamed up with other players to farm more souls, I intentionally used estus in order to aggro the boss on me. It works most of the time. When you are solo with low health and you use the estus, the boss will make an extra 1-2 hits combo which might finish you off. Of course this is fair and it not like the game shits on your strategy.

 

[toro]

On that note, does anyone know what poise does in this game? Haven't really noticed any difference between wearing medium and no armor. Some enemies are stagger-resistant, while others have hyperarmor on select attacks, which is really annoying in combination with long, fast combos.

Beats me. I think it counts for something but you need heavy armor for that.

 

[Perkel]

Well, I guess the second phase of Crystal Sage could be considered spam, but there the solution is to be super aggressive rather than trying to dodge stuff.

Generally that is imo rule of DS3. Didn't play long yet to completely figure out system but from what i see to point where i am by monsters and bosses taking initiative is much more important that wait and see aproach which can lead to problems due to quirky movests and clearly anti circle/shield moves.

 

[Jick Magger]

Or that Weasel from bridge which is basically moving in spasms. The strategy was roll roll roll spam attack roll roll roll ... awesome fight. And the nice part is that, she has a fatality attack if you go to far from her. Homing fatality attack.

Is it just me, or is that thing's hitbox ridiculously huge as well? I fought three different versions of the thing and there's pretty much no part of its body that it can't immediately snap to and hit you from, and there were even points where I was completely behind it while it was doing a lunging attack and it somehow still managed to hit me.

There's an area where you have to fight two of them, and I just do not see how you could fight and beat both of them at the same time without resorting to cheesing. They're both just too quick and dish out too much damage/stamina loss for you to engage them up close at once, and actively punish you for trying to engage them from afar with an essentially instant-death attack.

There was that one goat thing in the Farron Swamp that was just a pain to deal with, too. The one that loved to spam either its grab attack (which has incredibly long range, takes off half of your health, and puts it into a berserk state), or its jumping attack (which also takes off a huge chunk of health, and completely disorients your orientation if you're locked-on to it). All I could really do against that one is roll around like a maniac and try to stun-lock it to death (and even then it'd occasionally just randomly break out of the stagger and do a jump attack that was pretty much a guaranteed kill since I was stuck in place mid-attack and unable to move).

 

[Damned Registrations]

Has anyone found a good way to fight them Silver Knights and the Lothric Knights up in the Castle? I found parrying to be way too unreliable and backstabbing ever worse. They're hard to stagger and they recover fast. Plus they hit very hard and can spam attack constantly if you get too close.

Honestly the only way I found was to boost my Vitality and equip a Greatshield of Glory. That beast has 80 stability and they always stagger when they hit it allowing me to get a whack on them, one at a time. Those areas with several of them plus a few clerics buffing and healing them are probably the hardest ones in the whole game, including bosses.

The ones with shields are susceptible to having their guard broken. Twohand your weapon (I used a katana but anything should work really) and smack their shield until they stagger. They'll also do a partial stagger that looks a bit different if you've almost broken their guard, that's your queue to do one more attack even if it uses all stamina. Once they go into the guard broken pose, you can do a critical attack on them (you should wait a second to regain some stamina) and then get some free shots off as they stand up. Was good enough to kill them before I ran out of stamina, and I haven't improved mine at all. This works on the cathedral knights too; for some reason their great shields don't help them at all in this regard.

The ones with ultra greatswords are cunts though. I played the backstab fishing game but once in a while they go spam happy on the wide swings or I whiff a backstab and they continue the combo and wreck me.

 

[Wolfe]

Almost all the mentioned bosses could be approached in a tactical way. You could learn their pattern and then destroy them. You cannot do this with the majority of DaS3 bosses.

Of course you can. Stop exaggerating.

Right. Tell me that again after I successfully dodge Gundyr Champion 8+ times in a row and then he still comes after me. You see, there was not recovery from his combo. Maybe the outcome could have been different if I rolled in another direction after the 3rd attack or the 4th. Who knows? I cannot see the future.

Or when the Dancing Cunt doesn't stop rotating. 7 or 8 times !? Again, how is possible!? She crossed the entire room and I was stuck in a bench. I know, the tactical approach is to destroy all benches when the fight begins.

Or that Weasel from the bridge which is basically moving in spasms. The strategy was roll roll roll spam attack roll roll roll ... awesome fight. And the nice part is that, she has a fatality attack if you go to far from her. Homing fatality attack.

Or when the Dragonslayer Armour starts three different combos with the exact same move. Again, I cannot see the future.

Or when the most retarded mob jumps from a stair, makes an u-turn in the air and then he successfully finishes with a knife in my back.

Of course I'm exaggerating cause maybe ... just maybe ... we can cut the crap about this game. "tactical" is the same word but it has a different meaning in DaS/DaS2 and in DaS3.

The thing is: I've finished the game and I'm not sure killing a boss was my achievement or it was blind luck. This is DaS3 "tactical" approach where luck can count for 50% of your success.

Also at some point I felt like playing Mortal Kombat. There was a boss which kept me in air for a couple of hits and the Gundyr guy was round kicking me in mid air. Great game. Best beat'em up game I've played in long time.


EDIT: Also spoiler for you, the game is cheating. When I teamed up with other players to farm more souls, I intentionally used estus in order to aggro the boss on me. It works most of the time. When you are solo with low health and you use the estus, the boss will make an extra 1-2 hits combo which might finish you off. Of course this is fair and it not like the game shits on your strategy.

1. I admitted that Champion Gundyr has long streaks of attacks. He's one of the very few who do that, though.

2. Dancer only used that attack one time during the 4-5 minutes I've spent fighting her. How is it spamming? I think it's a fucking awesome move and it's not even that hard to get away from.

3. Here's the only place where I agree with you, some mobs are crazy and beating them is mostly luck-based. I am referring here to the big werewolf-crocodile beast from the bridge, the hollows that transform, the bird transforming mobs and the Pontiff Knights. There probably are more examples, but they generally give me a lot more trouble than most bosses.

But no, except for those bosses that I've mentioned, no other is "spamming" attacks or being overly aggressive. Not even Dragonslayer Armour, fuck, I beat him on the first try, it's not that hard to take a step back and try to recognise his different attacks..

 

[rashiakas]

Is dex the way to go? Most weapons I find, even greatswords, seem to have better dex scaling. Kinda torn at the moment, because with more strength I could finally use a better shield.

 

[toro]

Is dex the way to go? Most weapons I find, even greatswords, seem to have better dex scaling. Kinda torn at the moment, because with more strength I could finally use a better shield.

Infuse them. It might change the scalling from DEX to STR.

 

[made]

Undead settlement was quite good from a level-design standpoint although pretty easy (and I say that as someone who's terrible at these games).
When is the game supposed to open up tho? I still have only one path to follow to continue the story. In DS1 there were like 3 ways you could go right after the tutorial, some easier, some harder.

 

[Wolfe]

The interconnected world from DS1 is gone, it's nowhere to be found in this game. Most of the time you'll have one or two (at best) areas to proceed through. However, they have great level design with a lot of shortcuts and smart layouts that make sense. It's a shame though that they couldn't make it such that I would feel that type of wonder I felt when I realised how so many zones from the first game were interconnected and also returned to Firelink Shrine.

 

[Damned Registrations]

While the world doesn't loop back on itself like DS1 did, it does have a lot of branching. I've had 3+ options leading to bosses to me open at all times pretty much since the cathedral. I think I actually had like 5 at one point. And I'm positive I've entirely missed some major early game branch the same way I did in DS2.

Also, fighting Aldrich now, new favourite boss. Pewpew. I want all the weapons and spells this thing has.

 

[sullynathan]

Toro why the hell are you so aggressive?is it souls 3?

 

[Corporate_Jew_Master]

Respec'd and went for magic instead of miracles.

Holy shit, 3-shooting minibosses with chaos fire orb and the 2 pyro rings equipped, gg.

magic or pyro ?

Pyro, spamming great chaos fire orb. Orbeck died somehow, in the shrine, so I can;t buy sorceries from him. Gonna go sorcery with that golden spear-staff in NG+.

 

[Corporate_Jew_Master]

Well, I guess the second phase of Crystal Sage could be considered spam, but there the solution is to be super aggressive rather than trying to dodge stuff.

Generally that is imo rule of DS3. Didn't play long yet to completely figure out system but from what i see to point where i am by monsters and bosses taking initiative is much more important that wait and see aproach which can lead to problems due to quirky movests and clearly anti circle/shield moves.

This. DS1 bosses were piss easy if you invested in stamina. These ones rape you regardless of that. Timing dodges, stamina consumption and choosing which which strikes to take in the face makes for a more fun experience than cowering behind shield and waiting for the enemy moveset to be over.

Only boss I've complains about is Abyss Watchers being staggered by hits. As far as the game goes, DS3>>>DS2 and I'm finding it harder and more enjoyable than DS1 as well.

 

[Perkel]

Undead settlement was quite good from a level-design standpoint although pretty easy (and I say that as someone who's terrible at these games).
When is the game supposed to open up tho? I still have only one path to follow to continue the story. In DS1 there were like 3 ways you could go right after the tutorial, some easier, some harder.

Yeah so far level design is excellent and shits all over earlier games though like you said game seems to be way more linear than before.
DeS was a bit like that but you started with 4 different levels from get go and each of those levels were basically like DS3 linear with shortcuts.

I appreciate that they spaced out a bit bonfires compared to shitfest of DS2 but still imo they are waaaay to frequent. Still DeS1 archstones are golden standard for that system and shortcuts there were actually fucking amazing due to that where in here or other dark series games they are just usually "meh"

Well, I guess the second phase of Crystal Sage could be considered spam, but there the solution is to be super aggressive rather than trying to dodge stuff.

Generally that is imo rule of DS3. Didn't play long yet to completely figure out system but from what i see to point where i am by monsters and bosses taking initiative is much more important that wait and see aproach which can lead to problems due to quirky movests and clearly anti circle/shield moves.

This. DS1 bosses were piss easy if you invested in stamina. These ones rape you regardless of that. Timing dodges, stamina consumption and choosing which which strikes to take in the face makes for a more fun experience than cowering behind shield and waiting for the enemy moveset to be over.

Only boss I've complains about is Abyss Watchers being staggered by hits. As far as the game goes, DS3>>>DS2 and I'm finding it harder and more enjoyable than DS1 as well.

Yeah and they nerfed shields completely so they are actually tools now instead of go to mechanic. I still rememeber when i played Deamon's souls and how everyone called 95% shield "garbage".

From changes i don't like that much is vitality. It quickly gives waaaay to much hp. And since you start at 450 something hp vitality is something like go to to invest point in. I like also how they removed armor upgrades so you can't tank bosses but you need to actually git gud. Other fun change is economy. Monsters and bosses don't give much souls so you don't quickly go to lvl 100 at least from time what i played compared to rest of souls.