Warhammer Dawn of War 3 - DAMNATIO MEMORIAE

[Shadenuat]

MOBA 40k could have worked as a stand alone moba multiplayer game (level up! pay 2.99$ for new skin for your Macha-waifu! tbh would have played the fuck of it and i only played mobas for about 40 minutes of my whole life) or party based RPG. No reason to ruin DOW with it.

 

[Darth Roxor]

moba 40k has already happened and its called dow2

 

[MRY]

You know shit has hit the fan when people look at the story in a WH40k game to find something positive

Whether you consider it "story" or "presentation," the first DOW game's narrative is probably my second favorite RTS narrative (after the original Starcraft campaign) and among my favorites overall. It felt like the rare game where the protagonists had a non-Biowarean morality and stuck to it rather than inevitably being presented as the more moderate faction against a more extremist faction. Indeed, in appropriate WH40k fashion, moderation turns out to be a mistake. It's not like the story is super nuanced, but it worked very well for the gameplay and was fun.

 

[thesheeep]

You know shit has hit the fan when people look at the story in a WH40k game to find something positive

Whether you consider it "story" or "presentation," the first DOW game's narrative is probably my second favorite RTS narrative (after the original Starcraft campaign) and among my favorites overall. It felt like the rare game where the protagonists had a non-Biowarean morality and stuck to it rather than inevitably being presented as the more moderate faction against a more extremist faction. Indeed, in appropriate WH40k fashion, moderation turns out to be a mistake. It's not like the story is super nuanced, but it worked very well for the gameplay and was fun.

Well, WH40K game stories are always extremely simple. Kill all the bad things against overwhelming odds, that's it. I'm pretty sure I've played all of them and there is no exception here.
They worked well with what they had in the first DoW game, that's true. And they utterly fucked it up in the third part (funny enough, by trying to be complex).

It's not that the setting itself does not allow for more. It certainly does, especially in the PnP variants, at least when you leave the Space Marine "realm" of stories and memes.
Space Marines are the most boring thing in existence and I will never understand why every single game has to focus on them.

But a simple story without any surprises is never really a strong point, even if well presented. Otherwise, the recent Doom and Shadow Warrior games can be considered great storytelling
In the best case, it carries the gameplay well. There just isn't much story in WH40K games to begin with, nothing to think about, nothing surprising, etc. You know exactly what's coming from the first second.

So most of the time in the games you spend with anything except the story, and thus I find it hilariously funny when people are looking at the story when trying to come up with something positive to say.
It's like "Yeah, but these 3% of the game did not suck"

 

[MRY]

But a simple story without any surprises is never really a strong point, even if well presented. Otherwise, the recent Doom and Shadow Warrior games can be considered great storytelling
In the best case, it carries the gameplay well. There just isn't much story in WH40K games to begin with, nothing to think about, nothing surprising, etc. You know exactly what's coming from the first second.

So most of the time in the games you spend with anything except the story, and thus I find it hilariously funny when people are looking at the story when trying to come up with something positive to say.
It's like "Yeah, but these 3% of the game did not suck"

Maybe it is a product of my limited familiarity with the Warhammer setting, but I guess I disagree that a simple story without surprises is never a strong point, that there is "nothing surprising" in the first game's story, and that most of DoW was bad. Obviously, this is all very subjective but:

(1) While this may be a matter of low expectations, well-presented, simple, unsurprising stories are actually (IMO) at the top of the heap in terms of game or even genre film/novel/comic stories. Overwhelmingly, such stories are bad, baroque, and still unsurprising, or worse, "surprising" in ways that are simply nonsensical. While a wonderful, surprising story is a true delight, I think surprise has become over-emphasized (in some ways, The Sixth Sense and The Usual Suspects seem to have been an inflection point, but maybe that's just based on my own age). Sometimes the orderly progression of themes, characters, and moral regularity is its own kind of pleasure.

(2) To me, DoW was actuallyquite surprising. Overwhelming, RTS (esp. fantasy and science fiction RTS) plots go: "Xenophobic humans come to realize that supernatural threat is greater than their foreign foes, and make an unsteady peace to face this common enemy. In so doing, they learn the value of an open hand and an open mind, and usher in a new, better world." Setting aside the politics of whether this message is good (I happen to be sympathetic to it), it is very, very worn out. DoW sets up that trope, but then averts it in various ways (the execution of the repentant librarian; the vindication of the zealot space marine; the ultimate unhappy ending). I played the expansions but not the sequels, and I can't really remember the expansions' plots (did they even really have plots?), but the absurd reactionary/fascist elements of the WH40k, when faithfully carried out, actually do make the story surprising.

(3) DoW had lots of great presentation-related things aside from the story -- the graphics were cool, the scale was cool, the gameplay was relatively novel (though not necessarily great). I think Kohan II (which I worked on) might've been slightly better from a gameplay standpoint (definitely not, to my discredit, from a story standpoint), but the total package of DoW is just like a really well-made popcorn game, maybe not quite as good as God of War but in the same vein.

 

[Dayyālu]

A simple story told well is far more satisfactory than pretentious crap told clumsily. Do we need to repeat the endless charade of "gaming is art"?

DW1's plot is fairly standard fare for the genre: but amongst an endless amount of repetition, stuff done well manages to keep the player's attention. DoW's plot is more relevant for the memes it spawned, though, and for the voice acting. SIIIIINDRIIIII

I think Kohan II (which I worked on) might've been slightly better from a gameplay standpoint (definitely not, to my discredit, from a story standpoint), but the total package of DoW is just like a really well-made popcorn game, maybe not quite as good as God of War but in the same vein.

You know, it has been years and I still remember Kohan II's story. It was simple, but effective. The names are forgotten, but not the characters: the shady masked archer guy that did the right thing in the end, the amnesiac with a tragic past, the stock heroine who sacrifices herself, the random madmen that try to doom the world for revenge. I even remember single scenes, like the duel between mask guy and the amnesiac, or when on the eve of the final battle the troops complain that they are not immortal like their commanders are, and mask guy replies that they are lucky , because if they fail mortals will merely die while immortals will suffer for eternity.

Like Myth or Hostile Waters , it was charming, like a good fantasy book you remember for years afterward. Dunnow if you wrote it, but the man did a good job. For a random internet guy, at least. I would rate it far superior to DoW1's story.

Space Marines are the most boring thing in existence and I will never understand why every single game has to focus on them.

Not all games focused on them, though. Rites of War was Eldar-centric, and it worked fairly well: Fire Warrior was a valiant attempt with shitty execution. The shift has become fairly worse the longest we had the "people who know just Warhammer" have been at the helm: Speeesh Mehreens have been reduced to fantasy superhero knights, and the stories about space knights, as Star Wars tells us, become stale and formulaic very fast if not given to a skilled author.

Conceptually, Mehreens are a rather interesting bunch, being nothing but monsters if we follow the older lore: they are very broken human beings, heavily mutated and with barely any shred of common "humanity" left, autistically bent on the art of warfare and employed ruthlessly. And they don't even know or understand completely what they are fighting for or if the Emperor and the Imperium are still "alive".

Such themes could be played for fun (The Redeemer is still the best 40k comic ever and it takes such distopia to comedic levels, without even the need of placing Mehreens in) or seriously, but it would require a far better pool of authors than Warhammer ever had. GW's writers slowly drifted towards superhero-style stories, because they are both easier to write and understand. And I seriously wonder who could appreciate a story seen through the eyes of a old-style Marine: it would be bordeline experimental, like one of those books that try to ape the mindset of an autistic person.

But it's all moot, Warhams is for children and manchildren after all.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

I blame Ward. The codices he wrote in 5th ed were atrocious. Its like he has no sense of scale and tries to make everything as grandiose as possible, without a hint of subtlety.
I play necrons. Within a span of a codex my faction went from ominous robots that consider lifeforms as something to be eradicated because either a) they're pests or b)because their lovecraftian gods are hungry, to robot egyptians who have political intrigues, care about honor and ride around in vehicle with glaring structural weak points...because fuck consistent faction design.

They basically went from Lawful Evil to Lawful Neutral, because GW forgot how to write good villains.

Btw, DoW 2's playstyle is overrated. Went from an RTS to a glorified moba. Retribution's campaign is particularly bad, because its basically the same thing copy pasted across all factions.
Dark Crusade tried to do something interesting at least by having a global risk style map. I wish more games did that, that was cool.

 

[MRY]

You know, it has been years and I still remember Kohan II's story. It was simple, but effective. The names are forgotten, but not the characters: the shady masked archer guy that did the right thing in the end, the amnesiac with a tragic past, the stock heroine who sacrifices herself, the random madmen that try to doom the world for revenge. I even remember single scenes, like the duel between mask guy and the amnesiac, or when on the eve of the final battle the troops complain that they are not immortal like their commanders are, and mask guy replies that they are lucky , because if they fail mortals will merely die while immortals will suffer for eternity.

Like Myth or Hostile Waters , it was charming, like a good fantasy book you remember for years afterward. Dunnow if you wrote it, but the man did a good job. For a random internet guy, at least. I would rate it far superior to DoW1's story.

!!!!!

This is the only compliment I have ever received for Kohan II's story (which I did write, it was one of my first commercial projects). The "just one ritual and back you spring" accusation and "rest in peace" rejoinder was probably my favorite part of it. The duel was very controversial because they didn't think they could adequately depict it given that the game engine was focused on squad battles.

I still don't think the story is very good, especially in contrast to DoW1.

Anyway, the only proper thanks you could show is finishing your Rule the Wave's LP, which has left a suppurating sore in my heart ....

Incidentally, to get the Kohan II job, I had to submit a writing sample, and wrote a short story based on Kohan I. It was pretty sweet. I'll dig it up and spoiler it in this thread.

 

[Cyberarmy]

You guys had to mention Kohan I-II...

 

[MRY]

So here is the Kohan writing sample, from 15 years ago! While I had other paying work (Infinity and, I think, Blazecrafters) before the TimeGate work, I think it is reasonably certain that my journey through writing game stories would've gone differently (and worse) if not for this sample tickling the TimeGate folks' fancy. Glancing through now, it's pretty mortifying, but I have a warm spot for it all the same.

Anyway, it will make almost no sense at all to someone not familiar with Kohan, particularly as it is chock full of lore shout-outs to show (not entirely accurately) that I was a True Fan.

Spoiler

THE SEVENTH TIME

The nameless man was curled upon the ground, wet and naked as a newborn. All about him hung the lingering smell of something fresh -- or perhaps that was not it at all, for nothing of this world had ever smelled in such a way, no matter how young and clean.

The nameless man lay in a pile of blood and offal, though he was, for the moment, unaware of it. Slowly, the smell that had come with him faded, the charnel stench taking its place. The nameless man was unaware of this, as well. Indeed, at that moment his mind was arush with all the thoughts a man can have and none of the senses. For this was the madness of awakening.

In fact, the nameless man was not naked. About his neck was a gold medallion, and upon the medallion was the elegant scrollwork of a perfect hand. Even had the nameless man been aware of the writing, he could not have read it. There were none who could, for the language of the gods was beyond the grasp of even immortal minds

The first sensation that came to the man was hearing. And the first noise that he heard was laughter. The laughter was ugly. The sound of it slid across him like a slug, trailing sickly slime. The laughter contained no joy.

"You're awake, brother!" came the blubbering words, wet and mocking.

The man opened his eyes. Breathed. Smelled. Touched. All the senses came back to him. The slippery warmth of cooling blood, the rancid smell of human flesh and excrement. And before him, the sight of creatures of hideous visage. Feral beasts, a mix of hyena and man, hunched beside him, snuffling and growling, crude weapons clenched in their claw-like hands. Beyond them, four savage, green-skinned humanoids bore on their shoulders a sedan chair from which the laughter and speech had come. Seated upon it was a man of immense corpulence. His pale skin was folded and folded again, shapeless and boundless and shining with sweat. For clothes he wore only a loincloth and two straps that crossed his chest, from which hung knives and hooks with every curve and twist geometry allowed.

"Who are you?" the naked man rasped, rising to his knees. The hyena creatures moved in and brandished their weapons.

"A fair question, though it is the sixth time you have asked." A thick finger idly spun a knife. "I am Buyasta. And I own you."

The naked man rose to his feet with a snarl. Immediately, he was struck down by the creatures.

"Patience, brother. You have asked your question, now I will ask mine. This is the seventh time that I have asked. What route has the army of Darius Javidan taken?"

The nameless man blinked his eyes. "Darius. . . Javidan? I do not know that name."

Buyasta sighed. "And that is the answer you have given, six times. You answered differently the first."

"And what did I say then?" the nameless man asked, frowning, confusion and loss carving themselves across his brow.

"I believe you told me that I could burn eternally in the fires of the deepest hell." Buyasta's bearers laughed as a smile split their master's face. "And then I told you that the fires of hell are cold, not hot." He leaned forward and winked one small eye. "And then I killed you."

The man looked down with horror at the blood and entrails on which he knelt, at the torn and shapeless flesh. His hands rushed across his naked body, probing, just as his mind rushed through his naked memories. Neither hand nor mind found the wounds he sought. "Who . . . what . . ."

Buyasta laughed aloud and slapped his stomach. The knives and hooks jangled. "The fourth time! Each time you slip farther back. You are Kharoush Shahin. You are a Kohan -- an immortal. Though a rather poor immortality it is, as you are even now learning."

Kharoush clutched the medallion around his neck.

"Yes, yes, you see -- even still you have some notion. That is your medallion. Or rather, it is mine. And when you die, you whisk away into it, and into the Great Dream." Buyasta waved for his bearers to lower him, and they did so. With a heave, he lifted himself from the chair and stood over Kharoush. "But I am not here to speak to you. You are here to speak to me. I can see it in your eyes. You remember it still. A secret, a great secret." Buyasta laughed. "No one hides anything from Buyasta. Amon Koth thought to hide his creatures from me, but I came and took what I pleased. Lyssa Edan tried to hide her beauty from me, but there, too, I took and I came." His thick white tongue ran across his lips. "So tell me your secret now, or I will take it from you."

"I don't. . . I can't. . ." Kharoush stared tremblingly at Buyasta. "I don't even remember who I am."

Buyasta sighed, removed a knife from his strap, and knelt down. "Shh." His empty hand shot forth, grabbed Kharoush by the throat. A moment later, the curved knife slipped into his leg and began to twist. And Kharoush began to scream.

Eventually, the knife and the screaming stopped.

"You will give, or I will take."

Kharoush began to speak, every word he could bring to mind, every location -- north, south, east, west, into the sun or away from it, near the mountains or in the forest, by the river or at its mouth . . . and the dagger, too, began to speak. Now there were two in him, and a hook within his chest, and no more words but only screaming.

The hook and knives left, and the screaming silenced to whimpering. Fresh blood pooled on the ground.

"You still cannot remember, brother?"

Kharoush sobbed.

"Then let me remind you. You are Kharoush Shahin. I am Buyasta. You knew me as Parsa Shahin. We shared a House. We walked beside the Starlit River and wooed the same beauties." He clenched Kharoush's face in his fingers. "No, you cannot go back that far. That was ages ago. The First Dynasty."

"How can you remember?" Kharoush gasped through the crushing fingers.

"It is my master's Gift to me. The sip of death does not bring me forgetfulness as it does you. I am Ceyah." He released Kharoush and shoved him backward. "But you have not forgotten what I seek. It is in you somewhere."

The Ceyah stroked his many chins.

"I have it," he said. He pointed his finger at one of the creatures that squatted beside Kharoush. "Kill him Kharoush. With your hands." The creature howled in protest and the others howled too, mocking. "Or you kill the Kohan, rhaksha," Buyasta said to the creature.

Immediately, it leapt upon Kharoush. All Kharoush's muscles already wept, and his body was already torn and beaten -- newborn and already on death's door. The creature's jaws snapped shut on his arm, tore flesh. They snapped again, but this time the arm moved, jerked back. A reflex. The other arm shot forth -- this, too, without thought. Fingers clenching around canine throat. Throwing. Body standing, adrenaline like fire burning through it. Kharoush kicked the rhaksha's side, knocking it over, then fell upon it, clenching its throat in his hands. Beneath him, it whimpered.

He slowly loosened his grip.

"Why do you want me to kill this beast?" Kharoush asked slowly as the rhaksha's limbs flailed.

"Kill, and escape death. Already you are beginning to remember -- your warrior's arts, your misplaced morality. Kill it and more will come back. Your bitter rage. Your thirst for vengeance. Kill it and remember me."

Kharoush killed.

"Yes. Now, tell me, what is your secret? Do not make me take it."

The other rhakshas howled over their fallen packmate. Kharoush shook his head and shivered. "I have no secret, Parsa."

"Buyasta," the Ceyah corrected.

"But I do remember now. A bit. We were friends. You betrayed. But why? The betrayers sought the world's destruction, but you . . . you lusted to have, not to destroy."

Buyasta smiled. "Not the world's destruction, brother. Recreation. The Master seeks to give it perfect form, a form that shall please, and that pleasure shall be mine, infinitely."

"And this Darius Javidan. . . if he is killed, then you will gain favor?"

More laughter, a broader smile. "Darius Javidan's death is not in my hands." Buyasta grabbed Kharoush's hand and forced his palm open. "Here. Here. And here." With each word, he stabbed a knife into Kharoush's palm. "Each an army of Ceyah. And here," he plunged in a hook as Kharoush screamed. "Here is Darius Javidan." The knives towered over the tiny hook, encircled it. "He is lost. He will not escape this time."

Kharoush, his jaw clenched, his eyes burning, hissed, "And which army is yours, demon?"

Buyasta slowly pulled the knives free. "None of them. I am not seen fit for an army. Vashti. Amon Koth. Shamael. Each has an army. And whichever takes him will have the favored seat at the Dark Master's side."

"You would kill him yourself?"

Buyasta shook his head. "Still slow. But then, you ever were, brother. No. I would set Darius free from the snare. For greater than the Master's favor is his wrath. Those three who mocked me, Fat Buyasta, too much the sloth for any army -- let the Master deal with them as he will, when the quarry is lost. We will catch Darius some day, whether now or later. But let it be me, my hands, my snares. . ."

Buyasta's eyes widened and his face transformed. So accustomed had the Ceyah become to his appetites that he had forgotten what hunger can show on a face, what desperate craving. And so lost was he in his own lust that he lost the new look in his captive's eyes.

"So I would not even betray. . ." Kharoush whispered. "It would be Darius's advantage and yours. And my freedom?"

"Of course," Buyasta promised, collecting himself.

"How can I trust you? Maybe there are no armies."

Buyasta grimaced, pulled a long dagger free, grabbed Kharoush by the hair and pressed the blade against his left ear. "Maybe I will leave you alive this time, ruined and broken, but alive. Alive to wander in ignorance and shame, reviled by all, never knowing your own past, never possessing any future. How would you enjoy that fate, brother?"

Kharoush jerked back, but Buyasta pressed the knife forward, drawing blood. "Where is he?"

"I don't know."

Buyasta howled and plunged the dagger into Kharoush's side. The Kohan collapsed forward as Buyasta released his hair.

"But. . ." Kharoush gasped. Buyasta knelt close. "I know it is in me. Let me remember. I was a warrior. Let me kill. You promised me memories if I killed."

"Yes, yes," Buyasta agreed. "Kill again."

Kharoush rose unsteadily, and then leapt into the rhaksha pack, grabbing one by its arm. With more than mortal strength, he swung the creature through the air, and sent it crashing into the hard earth. It did not move.

"A weapon, Buyasta! Let me be a warrior."

The Ceyah hesitated. "What fool do you take me for, Kharoush? It is you, not I, who was just born."

"A weapon, or you are the fool. I will not remember if I cannot live my memories. I did not fight with my hands. A blade. You have creatures aplenty for the slaughter." The quivering was gone from Kharoush's voice and limbs. His tone commanded.

"Very well." Buyasta threw him the dagger. Kharoush caught it in the air and smiled a feral grin. He fell upon the rhaksha.

Their howling filled the air. Animals they were, and like all beasts, knew predator from prey. The scent of fear, so carefully kept, was gone. And the eyes, with what intellect they had, they could see his eyes and know what Buyasta could not know: the fear of oblivion.

They fought, for what else was there to do but to fight? So had they been bred and twisted, in the dark burrows where Amon Koth had sung to them and raised them up. Fight. Always fight. But they had their memories, primordial, that said to run. And so they fought knowing that to run was life, to fight was death. They fought and they died, their black blood and flesh joining the red upon the ground.

"Stop!" Buyasta howled, knowing now, if not the fear of death, yet a piece of it. For he saw death all about him: limbs flying and blood spraying, whimpering, pitiful, not so real as that which had come from Kharoush, but that. . . that had been too real, too perfect.

Buyasta screamed for his bearers and rushed toward the chair. He leapt into it, rose up, crossed some ground, and then collapsed backward. His bearers, the three that yet lived, turned to the blood-covered immortal. Drauga they were, descended from the war-form of the immortals themselves. They did not fear as the rhaksha had feared. Slaves they had been, and now warriors they could be once more.

And then they too were dead, and Buyasta was on his knees.

"This is the dagger you named dehan, the mouth, because its hunger was never quenched." Kharoush's voice had changed again. Now it was cold, hard, at once empty and yet full of loathing.

"How could you know?" Buyasta begged. "How could you remember so fast? You were just Awakened."

And then Buyasta leapt up, drew two daggers, and swung. But Kharoush was away from them before they came close, and dehan swept across Buyasta's arms. Before the pain came, the Ceyah knew. His hands. He saw them. On the ground. The daggers fallen beside them.

He screamed.

Kharoush spoke six words of power, and flames licked forth and burned Buyasta's wounds shut.

"How?" Buyasta pleaded. "You cannot. It is impossible. You cannot remember so fast. Seven times! You were dead seven times, and all was lost."

"Some of us do not forget." Kharoush's eyes were black and burning. "Our memories are kept for us in the Dark Master's hand and given back."

"What?" Buyasta hissed, his pain forgotten. "But you remembered nothing. . ."

"Oh, Buyasta, you simple fool. And you wonder why He never trusted you with an army."

"But you were with Darius!"

"Yes. How do you think it is that we knew his every move, brother?" Kharoush spun the knife in his fingers, far more nimbly than Buyasta ever had. "We are both traitors, you and I. I to Darius. And you. . ." Kharoush smiled. "You are twice the traitor."

"Kharoush, I beg of you!" Buyasta raised his stumps in supplication.

"My name is Dahaka. And you, you are Parsa Shahin. Nothing more." The Ceyah advanced on Parsa. "You were right, though, Parsa: His anger is far greater than His pleasure, and His Gift He may also take away."

Dahaka pressed the dagger to Parsa's ear. "And little brother? I know that you never had Lyssa Edan." He began to cut. "I will remember that lie. But you, you will forget."

The dagger cut deeper.

"This is the first time."

 

[thesheeep]

So most of the time in the games you spend with anything except the story, and thus I find it hilariously funny when people are looking at the story when trying to come up with something positive to say.
It's like "Yeah, but these 3% of the game did not suck"

Maybe it is a product of my limited familiarity with the Warhammer setting, but I guess I disagree that a simple story without surprises is never a strong point, that there is "nothing surprising" in the first game's story, and that most of DoW was bad. Obviously, this is all very subjective but...

I think you got me wrong, I never said DoW was bad.
The first one is one of my favorite RTS games (though more Soulstorm for me, since I prefer the open approach to an RTS campaign).

This thread is about DoW III, though.
And that IS bad.

 

[Jaedar]

The first one is one of my favorite RTS games (though more Soulstorm for me, since I prefer the open approach to an RTS campaign).

Soulstorm singleplayer was crap though. It's my favorite rts for mp, but the sp is just awful. Inferior to dark crusade in pretty much every way.

 

[Darth Roxor]

The first one is one of my favorite RTS games (though more Soulstorm for me, since I prefer the open approach to an RTS campaign).

Soulstorm singleplayer was crap though. It's my favorite rts for mp, but the sp is just awful. Inferior to dark crusade in pretty much every way.

 

[Aothan]

I still don't understand why they went with the MOBA direction.

DoW III is not a moba, really anyone who played Dow II multiplayer for any length of time in the last eight years would recognise the oddity of applying this type of claim to the newer title

 

[Dr Skeleton]

It's not a MOBA but they've done a lot of work to make it look like one and try to appeal to that market. Can't blame people for calling it a MOBA (as an insult or not) if the devs themselves weren't shy about talking how MOBAs influenced the game.

 

[DramaticPopcorn]

I still don't understand why they went with the MOBA direction.

DoW III is not a moba, really anyone who played Dow II multiplayer for any length of time in the last eight years would recognise the oddity of applying this type of claim to the newer title

Well, DOW 2 is also a MOBA, bruh

 

[Ludovic]

I would be very surprised if GW had any influence on the game design of licensed games apart from legal saying "ok", "nope" to various models and features. E.g. for TW: WH I think there was something about GW stipulating limitations to modding, with the very odd reasoning that modders adding newly released tabletop models would hurt miniature sales.

GW is a weird company. For decades they had a commendable focus on keeping production facilities in Nottingham, wanting to give back to the local community rather than reduce costs through cheap labor and lack of environmental regulation. (Not sure if this is still the case, after they moved from pewter to plastic). They also used to have insanely good customer support, where if you got an incorrectly packed or broken mini, you could call/mail them and they'd send a replacement no questions asked. (Sadly some folks abused the shit out of this and it got changed). But on the other hand they've had some terrible aspects, such as their aggressive sales tactics, refusal to support veteran gamers and, worst of them all, publicly stating to investors that games were an annoying vehicle necessary to sell miniatures. I think this lack of love for gaming in the top management was a big part of why they kept failing to do anything good in the digital and online space. They used to be an innovative and experimental company, just look at all the weird stuff they put out in the 80s and 90s.

As for DoW3, personally I think it's an issue of the producers/designers at Relic being out of touch with their customers. It feels very much like they made the game they wanted to play themselves. Sometimes that's a good thing, but in this case it wasn't. It doesn't feel like a designer sticking to a persona l vision, but more like a bunch of mostly casual gamers designing via "wouldn't it be cool if?", and it certainly doesn't feel like a W40K game. Adding insult to injury is the extremely low amount of content for a game this expensive. Short and superficial single-player campaign, very few maps, one game mode, low building/unit/tech complexity. Only the elites stand out as having been given attention, and I can't shake the feeling they were originally intended to be part of F2P/microtransaction strategy, which was ditched somewhere along the way.

This game is the only time I've wanted to get a refund on Steam, as I felt seriously shortchanged on value-for-money. Alas, it took me more than 2 hours to realize just how shallow this game is.

Can they save it with the changes they're promising? I don't think so. It will take a massive expansion effort, almost on the level of a remake, to get this back on track.

 

[SirArvedeth]

GW is a weird company. For decades they had a commendable focus on keeping production facilities in Nottingham, wanting to give back to the local community rather than reduce costs through cheap labor and lack of environmental regulation. (Not sure if this is still the case, after they moved from pewter to plastic). They also used to have insanely good customer support, where if you got an incorrectly packed or broken mini, you could call/mail them and they'd send a replacement no questions asked. (Sadly some folks abused the shit out of this and it got changed). But on the other hand they've had some terrible aspects, such as their aggressive sales tactics, refusal to support veteran gamers and, worst of them all, publicly stating to investors that games were an annoying vehicle necessary to sell miniatures. I think this lack of love for gaming in the top management was a big part of why they kept failing to do anything good in the digital and online space. They used to be an innovative and experimental company, just look at all the weird stuff they put out in the 80s and 90s.

While I totally agree with most you said, I have to say that GW maintains its high reputation of having great customer support. During the last 3-4 years it happened that I bought fucked up sets - first time it had a warped sprue, the other time - one of them was missing completely. Even though I bought both boxes at local gaming store, I had literally no problem to receive a replacement through GW's customer support - hell, last time I was missing one Cadian Heavy Weapon team, and instead of getting one as a proper replacement - I received a whole box consisting of three teams. And a badge and some other random shit.

 

[Andkat]

I think there was something about GW stipulating limitations to modding, with the very odd reasoning that modders adding newly released tabletop models would hurt miniature sales

But WHFB is dead....

Not to mention that you could actually add new models to DoW etc., part of why it had an active modding scene even to this day (no idea where it's at with the closure of Relicnews though).

Most of what CA imputes to GW I'm disposed to attribute to their own indolence or ineptitude.


I remember when a buddy and I were preparing for a Dark Heresy RPG he was going to run, we went through the background fluff and asked ourselves which parts of it were garbage that needed to be thrown out to make a decent environment for a serious overarching narrative.


We wound up rewriting the entire setting.

 

[Darth Roxor]

I remember when a buddy and I were preparing for a Dark Heresy RPG he was going to run, we went through the background fluff and asked ourselves which parts of it were garbage that needed to be thrown out to make a decent environment for a serious overarching narrative.


We wound up rewriting the entire setting.

Then all I can say is that you and your buddy are a bunch of idiots.

 

[Daedalos]

Is this worth getting at all ?

 

[Cyberarmy]

No.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Is this worth getting at all ?

In your case it's certainly worth buying at full price.

 

[Daedalos]

Is this worth getting at all ?

In your case it's certainly worth buying at full price.

You seem upset. Please elaborate further.

 

[Maculo]

Is this worth getting at all ?

I think so, but certainly not at a $60 price tag. If you like RTS games, then it will sate that thirst for a time. Outside of that, I believe the Space Marine campaign missions on max difficulty are decent. In several Space Marine missions, you have a limited number of squads and resources, which you have to make do with against multiple waves of Ork and Eldar. Due to limited resources, you must make the choice of reinforcing existing squads, making new units, or purchasing upgrades (flamers, grenades, etc). The first Space Marine mission actually got my hopes up, but then you get to the Ork and Eldar missions, which are miserable. With the Ork and Eldar missions, you have all the time and resources you need, and you just build up an army and go. Difficulty-wise, it is as if no one tested the Ork and Eldar missions, or perhaps this game was meant to be Space Marine focused similar to DoW 1. To give an example, in the final Ork faction mission (maybe second to last), I beat the mission with just the super unit, while the rest of my army just sat in the base and defended. That was max difficulty, and the super unit just waltzed into the enemy locations and one-shotted the targets.