Dear nazi douchebags, (or: no-ban policy has been revoked)

[Murk]

Directed at Naked Ninja: I don't believe DU meant that you must use 'niggerjew' in any heated conversation, but rather a website that supports an environment where heated arguments can exist will invariably also be confronted with said unintelligent insults. This is the bad that comes with the good, roughly put, and moderation of it is... well... difficult it would seem.

I imagine that if use of 'jew' as an insult were banned from the Codex a great deal of its members would stop posting and/or leave, not because they themselves are nazis or use 'jew' as an insult, but because they wouldn't want the Codex to go down that route of moderation.

Ultimately though it does fall to this -- if this environment is not to your liking, either learn to ignore it (as I have with GD) or simply stop coming here and reading those posts that you know will infuriate you.

While one-liner based idiocy has crept into the gaming and RPG forums, it is mostly contained in GD, which in some ways serves to actually collect the dirt there and keep it from spreading to other areas. I for one am glad that all the political and social bickering is contained in one simple forum on the bottom of the list that I can easily ignore while checking up on the news and general RPG sections.

 

[Grunker]

Oh well then, you've convinced me. Thanks Grunker.

So, if not the 'dex, where can you find intelligent critiscm of the gaming industry and where are you allowed to express your opinion about it? Which place can I go to where saying 'fuck' isn't considered impolite? Where can I nerdrage unblocked about teh traversity of fallout-rape and general idiocy? And where can I do it without being moderated for supposed "personal attacks" when I tell an idiot he's an idiot?

Moderation doesn't work with arbitrary guidelines, it will always be up to the personal opinion of the mod. No matter what the decision, it will not be able to stand up to the supposed general rules, unless they are extremely specific (such as banning NSFW-pictures).

So making a rule against "assholes" or "people that spew hatred" will ultimately target not idiots, but the ones mods feel are idiots.

Who would you propose be banned from the Codex? Volourn? I hope not? Ch1ef? Maybe, but that one guy isn't really able to produce the amount of decline you suppose there is. Even EV added considerably to serious debate a lone once in a while.

If you propose stricter rules - then what rules? What rules, pray tell, will work without mod bias and start the incline of the Codex? And without the Codex becoming the next Watch or ITS.

 

[Helton]

Mikayel you are gentlmen I have not seen in some time. Tell me, my friend, what is your preferred method of bootyslap?

 

[Murk]

Mikayel you are gentlmen I have not seen in some time. Tell me, my friend, what is your preferred method of bootyslap?

I prefer to integrate my passion of numerical formulae into my methods of pimping, my dear respectable sir. As of the last week, I have been using the Fibonacci sequence with the flat of my palm followed by a drum roll of my fingers at the moment of release and pull-back with the palm. I believe it's strong, but at the same time playful. Modify as necessary as per the personal deviance required in each person.

 

[Helton]

I prefer to integrate my passion of numerical formulae into my methods of pimping, my dear respectable sir. As of the last week, I have been using the Fibonacci sequence with the flat of my palm followed by a drum roll of my fingers at the moment of release and pull-back with the palm. I believe it's strong, but at the same time playful. Modify as necessary as per the personal deviance required in each person.

You are perhaps the most honorable man I have ever met. A divine combination of intellect, testosterone, and artistic passion this I will dub "The Mikayel" in your honor and swear to perform it at least annually (to at least, but not limited to, the third Fibonacci Number) until I die.

 

[Naked Ninja]

Directed at Naked Ninja: I don't believe DU meant that you must use 'niggerjew' in any heated conversation, but rather a website that supports an environment where heated arguments can exist will invariably also be confronted with said unintelligent insults.

Yes. And then you moderate. The intelligent, mature members will realise they've gone too far and tone it down. The children will throw fits and leave in a huff. *shrug*

I imagine that if use of 'jew' as an insult were banned from the Codex a great deal of its members would stop posting and/or leave, not because they themselves are nazis or use 'jew' as an insult, but because they wouldn't want the Codex to go down that route of moderation.

The intelligent, mature individuals will realise they've gone too far and tone it down. The children will throw fits and leave in a huff. *shrug*

There is a reason that every society has a system for punishing people who can't control the impulses which are harmful to that society as a whole. Because trusting jerks to self-moderate is naive. They don't.

You don't have a choice that doesn't include people leaving. You only get to choose who leaves : the people looking for intelligent conversation, or the childish twits. Can't have both.

Ultimately though it does fall to this -- if this environment is not to your liking, either learn to ignore it (as I have with GD) or simply stop coming here and reading those posts that you know will infuriate you.

I have. I use the Codex front page as an aggregator of GameBanshee and Watch newsposts, which it mostly is. Like I said, the only reason I bothered here was because I saw the debate on the Watch and couldn't help laughing.

And without the Codex becoming the next Watch or ITS.

Heaven forbid hey Grunker?

 

[Helton]

Naked Ninja while you grace us this fine morning before returning to your place of prudetry may you please share with us your secrets of the bootyslap. Perhaps as a show of good faith, of no hard feelings. A peace offering as to say "it isn't personal chaps, keep workin that ass"

 

[Grunker]

The children

The intelligent, mature individuals

The children

childish twits.

Oh, you're from the Watch.

Heaven forbid hey Grunker?

Ehm, yes? If I want to go to RPGWatch or ITS, I can go to RPGWatch or ITS.

 

[Murk]

You are perhaps the most honorable man I have ever met. A divine combination of intellect, testosterone, and artistic passion this I will dub "The Mikayel" in your honor and swear to perform it at least annually (to at least, but not limited to, the third Fibonacci Number) until I die.

Yes. And then you moderate. The intelligent, mature members will realise they've gone too far and tone it down. The children will throw fits and leave in a huff. *shrug*

Cue "that is a slippery slope" argument augmented with the "can't take heat, leave kitchen" clause.

There is a reason that every society has a system for punishing people who can't control the impulses which are harmful to that society as a whole. Because trusting jerks to self-moderate is naive. They don't.

Sure, but that's real life with actual society where people get hurt, robbed, or otherwise wronged. This is internetstan where at most 'butthurt' occurs. Where-as heavy regulation makes sense in the real world where everything is at stake, here in fake digital rpg land it doesn't.

You don't have a choice that doesn't include people leaving. You only get to choose who leaves : the people looking for intelligent conversation, or the childish twits. Can't have both.

I'm not entirely sure where you're drawing that conclusion from or if it even really fits here. Quality posters have been leaving even while the anti-nazi policy was in effect and conversely quality posters continue to contribute even now during the open season of political incorrectness. Did the whole VD being ousted over the spark that was spacemoose's banning over posting some NSFW pics openly not illustrate how big of a giant uproar the ENTIRE forum was in? My assumption is heavy handed moderation will naturally lead more to that as our past precedent certainly seems to imply so. I do understand tho -- you don't like the way it is with low-moderation, that's fine, but it doesn't really translate to how things should be.

I have. I use the Codex front page as an aggregator of GameBanshee and Watch newsposts, which it mostly is. Like I said, the only reason I bothered here was because I saw the debate on the Watch and couldn't help laughing.

Umm, you posted quite a few thought our responses - I mean I get that you mean that you don't really "care" about the situation but your involvement in the discussions definitely implies that you do... at least to some capacity. Let's be real here - do you or do you not care about how the Codex is run? If you do care, that's fine, but if you don't then... why bother? Kill time I guess?

 

[Lockkaliber]

I'd like to take the time to say (since I partially started all this) that I'm not really offended by niggerjew, I just find it boring.

 

[Freelance Henchman]

I move that the new word for "niggerjew" is "nignogyid". It's more risible and it sounds like some Lovecraftian horror to boot.

 

[Fritz Haber]

But what about faggot?

 

[Clockwork Knight]

The intelligent, mature individuals will realise they've gone too far and tone it down. The children will throw fits and leave in a huff. *shrug*

Define "too far". For me, "niggerjew" is an amusing word that won't offend anyone who doesn't want to be offended. "Too far" would be, what, /b/-style stalking (and even then, the person usually is asking for it).

In the end, it would be up to the mods to define what "too far" is, instead of simple, but easy to understand rules like "no NSFW pics without warning". And then it's a matter of time until a pussified liberal becomes moderator and turns the codex into a civilized, but utterly PC and boring, watch clone.

It's not that "niggerjew" needs to be said for a serious discussion, it's the knowledge you can say it (along with calling other people cumdrinking faggots and they not giving a shit) that incentives our humongous intellects to soar.

I'd like to take the time to say (since I partially started all this) that I'm not really offended by niggerjew, I just find it boring.

Define "boring". There are many discussions I find boring, but I skip them instead of asking them to be removed because the world doesn't spin around me and there are people who still find them amusing / interesting (since they are talking about it). I imagine the "quality posters" would do the same, since not every thread is dominated by memes. And if they expected every thread to be a bastion of rpg knowledge, they had unrealistic expectations (tm), anyway.

As DU said, posters come and go for various reasons. Some of you may find the codex is getting retarded and stale, so you project your views onto the other users ("since they are quality posters, that means they must have good taste - and I have good taste, obviously - so that means they thought the forum was turning into shit, just like me!"). You could artificially keep things like old times, banning whoever isn't part of the tiny circlejerk, but there's only so much you can talk to the same people about the same topics until they start leaving anyway.

 

[Vibalist]

So, if not the 'dex, where can you find intelligent critiscm of the gaming industry and where are you allowed to express your opinion about it?

While I don't know where you might find another forum that offers the same criticism of the industry as the codex does, saying that this is the only place on the internet where you can aim criticism at the industry simply isn't true. I once wrote a long rant against Dragon Age on the Bio forums, and no one shut the thread down until it ended up derailing, which was after 7 pages of heated discussion.

Which place can I go to where saying 'fuck' isn't considered impolite?

Why the is it so important to be allowed to say fuck? If you go to some forum where this isn't allowed, surely you'll find another way to express your opinion.

Where can I nerdrage unblocked about teh traversity of fallout-rape and general idiocy?

Mostly anywhere. They might shut you down on the Bethesda forums, but there are plenty of places all over the web where you can say exactly what you feel about a certain product. Iron Tower Forums? RPG Watch? Hell, try going to the Bio forums sometime and make a thread about all the problems you have with their games. I guarantee you that unless the thread is simply a blatant trolling attempt, they'll let it stay.

And where can I do it without being moderated for supposed "personal attacks" when I tell an idiot he's an idiot?

Why do you need to resort to personal attacks anyway? I agree that it's fun to do so now and again, but if your point is one that is worth making then you don't need to tell someone he's an idiot, he'll be made to look like one on the virtue of you winning the debate.

And calling someone an idiot is not a "supposed" personal attack, it is a personal attack.

Moderation doesn't work with arbitrary guidelines, it will always be up to the personal opinion of the mod. No matter what the decision, it will not be able to stand up to the supposed general rules, unless they are extremely specific (such as banning NSFW-pictures).

So making a rule against "assholes" or "people that spew hatred" will ultimately target not idiots, but the ones mods feel are idiots.

This depends on the moderator in question, like everything else. You're bound to find many mods who ban people because of something personal, but this doesn't mean that plenty of mods aren't capable of doing a professional job.

You have a decent point regarding how it's ultimately a subjective decision on behalf of the moderator who's an idiot and who isn't, but mostly this is not a hard call to make. Mostly everyone here agrees that Volourn, Relootz, Lebanese Warrior and Ch1ef are morons, and if one or two of them were to be banned I doubt many people would spill tears. The job of a good moderator would be to get rid of these people, those that the community at large have a problem with, not simply banning someone he disagrees with. Take a glance at the ignore list for a second, and suddenly it becomes very, very easy to discern who is disliked, and thus very easy to figure out who needs a banning. It is not, as you seem to think, and impossibly hard and complicated decision that in the end is only made on the basis of who the moderator has a personal problem with.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Did the whole VD being ousted over the spark that was spacemoose's banning over posting some NSFW pics openly not illustrate how big of a giant uproar the ENTIRE forum was in? My assumption is heavy handed moderation will naturally lead more to that as our past precedent certainly seems to imply so. I do understand tho -- you don't like the way it is with low-moderation, that's fine, but it doesn't really translate to how things should be.

There was no uproar. When TC and Codex merged, Naked Lunch got admin access to the entire site, which is something that should have never happened in the first place. He used it for the lulz, de-admining everyone and making Pooper and Nico admins.

Spacemoose was banned temporarily. His alt was back on the forums in 5 min (and nobody really gave a shit about the whole incident). I was discussing with his alt the terms of his rehabilitation when the site went down.

And if I recall correctly, I wasn't ousted. I stepped down because the majority of admins disagreed that a different policy was required. I respected their decision to keep the forums the way they wanted to and left.

 

[relootz]

Mostly everyone here agrees that Volourn, Relootz, Lebanese Warrior and Ch1ef are morons

stop the lies, start the truth.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The intelligent, mature individuals will realise they've gone too far and tone it down. The children will throw fits and leave in a huff. *shrug*

Define "too far".

Surely you are able to tell the difference between the freedom to post an opinion, especially if it's well presented and supported by arguments, and the freedom to be a moron and throw feces at people.

For example, was there any reason to kick Gaider off these boards? In the good ol' days Dave was getting plenty of shit from Saint, Rosh, and other people, but it was constructive criticism that invited discussions, not criticism like "fatty", stupid, shitty, etc. Would the latter be a good example of the "can't take the heat..." dogma that's being paraded around?

Is the site better without developers coming here to discuss and defend their design decisions? Is it better with obvious morons like Ch1ef who have nothing to contribute?

For me, "niggerjew" is an amusing word that won't offend anyone who doesn't want to be offended.

For someone else it's an invite to be a moron.

And then it's a matter of time until a pussified liberal becomes moderator and turns the codex into a civilized, but utterly PC and boring, watch clone.

Because one extreme can only be replaced with another extreme?

 

[Naked Ninja]

Cue "that is a slippery slope" argument augmented with the "can't take heat, leave kitchen" clause.

The argument applies both ways. Letting the dumbasses run rampant is also a slippery slope, a fact you ignore. It ends in complete meme meltdown.

Sure, but that's real life with actual society where people get hurt, robbed, or otherwise wronged. This is internetstan where at most 'butthurt' occurs. Where-as heavy regulation makes sense in the real world where everything is at stake, here in fake digital rpg land it doesn't.

The scale of the result doesn't change the fact that the mechanic is the same. No rules = societal degeneration because jerks can't be trusted to reign themselves in.

I'm not entirely sure where you're drawing that conclusion from or if it even really fits here.

Put more points into perception.

Umm, you posted quite a few thought our responses

That 1k+ post count I have? Very little of that comes from the last 6 months, and of that most is from responses to the article I wrote with VD or about SoW.

Define "too far". For me, "niggerjew" is an amusing word that won't offend anyone who doesn't want to be offended.

Except black people and jews and anyone who isn't a racist.

instead of simple, but easy to understand rules like "no NSFW pics without warning"

Explain why 'no NSFW pics without warning' is easy/simple to understand but 'no racist slurs' isn't, please. Do you suffer from a mental disability perhaps? Does it affect your ability to read at an adult level?

turns the codex into a civilized, but utterly PC and boring, watch clone.

Your true motives revealed. The desire for entertainment-via-lulz as opposed to intelligent discourse. I'm fine with that, but please stop pretending the Codex is anything but a playpen then. Just change the name to Memedex and be done.

it's the knowledge you can say it (along with calling other people cumdrinking faggots and they not giving a shit) that incentives our humongous intellects to soar.

Anything that requires that to grow isn't worthy of the title 'intellect'.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Meet Naked Ninja. He hates freedom.

Mostly everyone here agrees that Volourn, Relootz, Lebanese Warrior and Ch1ef are morons

This is bullshit. I can agree about Ch1ef, I doubt there's anyone who doesn't consider him a moron, but the others? Seriously? Volourn is our pretty Codex mascot, and even though he's a deluded fanboy, he's not a complete ban-worthy dumbfuck, since he actually somehow contributes to discussions, even though these are downright bipolar opinions. Relootz and Lebanese Warrior? Just no. All of the 'durrhurr ban zerotool/cf' people nowadays are biased to the point of stupidity, and don't even read the posts in question but just look at the name and think "O SHIT". Relootz got banned twice, and in this incarnation he's acceptable, the same is the case with Lebanese Warrior, and I'm saying that even though both of them can probably confirm that I yelled 'dumbfuck!' at them on more than one occasion.

 

[Vibalist]

Volourn is our pretty Codex mascot, and even though he's a deluded fanboy, he's not a complete ban-worthy dumbfuck, since he actually somehow contributes to discussions, even though these are downright bipolar opinions.

When has Volourn ever said anything useful, intelligent or insightful? C'mon now. The guy is good fun and a good troll, but every post of his can be boiled down to name calling and wierd and illogical opinions he never tries to defend, ever.

Relootz and Lebanese Warrior? Just no. All of the 'durrhurr ban zerotool/cf' people nowadays are biased to the point of stupidity, and don't even read the posts in question but just look at the name and think "O SHIT". Relootz got banned twice, and in this incarnation he's acceptable, the same is the case with Lebanese Warrior, and I'm saying that even though both of them can probably confirm that I yelled 'dumbfuck!' at them on more than one occasion.

I still remember when these two followed each other around in every thread and derailed it with their stupid beef. I agree that they're cool now, but if you look back at their history it's very understandable why they got kicked out.

 

[Liberal]

The job of a good moderator would be to get rid of [...] people [...] the community at large haves a problem with

Idiocy. The job of a moderator is to ban people who break the forum rules. Since the Codex has no rules outside of "no NSWF pics in the open" and "don't spam the forum with dozens of identical posts/threads" - nobody needs to be banned. When I registered, even those rules were not enforced.

 

[Vibalist]

The job of a moderator is to ban people who break the forum rules.

And he can't do both?

 

[Darth Roxor]

When has Volourn ever said anything useful, intelligent or insightful? C'mon now. The guy is good fun and a good troll, but every post of his can be boiled down to name calling and wierd and illogical opinions he never tries to defend, ever.

I remember him making sensible posts in some of the recent ME2 threads. Basically, when Volly doesn't go into an utter rage-mode, he sounds almost like a normal guy.

I still remember when these two followed each other around in every thread and derailed it with their stupid beef. I agree that they're cool now, but if you look back at their history it's very understandable why they got kicked out.

Keywords bolded.

 

[Liberal]

The job of a moderator is to ban people who break the forum rules.

And he can't do both?

No. Just because someone isn't liked/appreciated doesn't mean he loses the right to post on the forum. Unless he's not liked for breaking the forum rules (see above). People who are hated by everybody bring life and meaning to the community.

 

[Vibalist]

I remember him making sensible posts in some of the recent ME2 threads. Basically, when Volly doesn't go into an utter rage-mode, he sounds almost like a normal guy.

So, out of 20.000 posts, we can occasionally dig up one or two that don't read like a 12-year old fanboy ranting. I'm sure EV also said something worthwhile once every blue moon, but he was still a bit of a dumbass.

Keywords bolded.

Maybe I was wrong for naming those two, but I merely did it to get a point across.