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Decline Designers grabbing you by the hand and leading you isn't very fun

gurugeorge

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That "build a bridge out of debris" was utterly ratarded. Thinking about it, how could they have done it better? Something like a highlightable pile of wood nearby, with some long planks sticking out which, once you've clicked on it, THEN opens up the "build a bridge" bubble when you go back to the chasm?

I thought they actually did something like this quite well in PF:K when you first arrive at the outpost Inn and prepare for the bandit attack, as you're wandering around the Inn's grounds, you find white-highlightable objects that can potentially be used to prepare for the attack, but the dialogue as to their usefulness only appears if you have the relevant skill, otherwise they're just "junk" or "nothing useful here."
 
Unwanted

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Don't lead the player by the hand = bad Steam review. It's never coming back to times of incline unless the developer makes a pledge on respecting the player's intelligence at the cost of reputation. Which it's not gonna happen because idealism in media died long ago.
 

Cross

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RPGs should be using a point and click interface that lets you drag items and skills to interact with the environment. That would make the solution not immediately obvious so that the player would have to think about what to do instead of picking from the list of solutions the developer laid out.

Some older RPGs did work like that but this style of design has been mostly abandoned.
 

wishbonetail

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RPGs should be using a point and click interface that lets you drag items and skills to interact with the environment. That would make the solution not immediately obvious so that the player would have to think about what to do instead of picking from the list of solutions the developer laid out.

Some older RPGs did work like that but this style of design has been mostly abandoned.
There won't be anything to "point and click" cos all games are made for consoles and mobile phones now. I don't even remember when I last used right mouse button for context menus.
 

Humbaba

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Neither of the two are examples of hand holding, they are examples of the game highlighting movement options, not puzzles. Completely incomparable to the Fallout example. /thread

Inb4 fake news, retarded etc. I'm just telling the truth.
 
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As for the skill checks in the environment, having the DC on display is essential since many of the times you face severe consequences should you fail them, and you will want to use things like "touch of good" and "bit of luck" for the non-trivial checks.
And obviously those are D20 checks, in a crpg a D20 check without DC info is pretty retarded since you will never know why you failed the check.

I am OK with the player having a DC displayed, as the player needs some kind if objective measure. However, the DC should only be shown after they pass some kind of assessment or inspection check.
 

JarlFrank

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Modern games have a higher graphic fidelity so quickly ascertaining what is interactable will be a lot harder than in older games. Compare Fallout 2 to Wrath of the Righteous. Wrath is littered with decorative objects, particle effects, and poor contrast. All of that makes it harder to direct the player's eyes towards any one direction unless the camera automatically moves there or some big icon hovers over it. Additionally Wrath has a fully rotatable camera so you cannot guarantee what direction the player is even looking in. Fallout 2 doesn't have these problems as that games simply graphics make it easier for the player to notice each individual item. This is simply a case of visual clarity and graphics advancement ruining game design.

Yes, graphics advancement is what ruins game design in this case. But not visual clarity.

Visual clarity is higher in older games. Much higher. Whenever I play a Thief or Quake map, I can easily recognize everything at a glance. Even in modern fan-made maps that up the detail a lot, it's easy to spot what's interactable and what isn't.
One reason is the lack of flashy effects. Modern games love to put bloom and HDR and depth of field and whatever the fuck else into the game which just serves to wash out the textures and blur the models so it's harder to actually discern the objects in the environment.
Another reason is that modern level designers just lost the ability to create natural signposting due to over-reliance on artificial signposting. If you compare the older entries in a series to the newer ones, you will clearly see how level design has declined.

Let's take Tomb Raider for example, because right now I'm replaying the first game and having a blast. While the original Tomb Raider's 3D architecture was rather primitive, with areas being made up of equally-sized square blocks, this restriction also came with incredible visual clarity and was combined with a universal physics system that applied to everything equally. If a ledge was within Lara's reach, she could grab it. No exceptions. If you look at your surroundings and see a place that looks like you can get to it... you can probably get to it, as long as it is within jumping distance of your current position. Everything was reliable and followed the same rules so navigation through the levels is easy as long as you're observant.

But in the modern Tomb Raider reboots, this no longer applies. Sometimes, a place looks like it's accessible but isn't because even though the ledge is within reach of Lara's hands, she can't grab onto it because... it's not a grabbable ledge, for some reason. Instead, only ledges that have a white texture on them are reliably grabbable. Why? Just because, lol. The games went from a natural level design where every single piece of the environment followed the exact same rules to artificial level design where a lot of the landscape is decorative and can't be interacted with, so the interactive pieces of the landscape have to be color coded in order to guide the player.

Same thing with rope arrows in the original Thief games vs that horrendous Thi4f reboot from 2014. In the originals, rope arrows could stick in any wooden surface. Ceiling made of wood? Rope arrow sticks. Window ledge made of wood? Rope arrow sticks. The rule is simple and universal, and if a level designer wants to hide a secret area that's only accessible with a rope arrow, all he has to do is place a wooden surface nearby and then the player can come to the conclusion of using a rope arrow there by himself. Not so in the reboot. No, the devs of the reboot decided that players would be able to break their levels if given such a powerful navigation tool (lol) so they restricted rope arrows to specific spots. Those spots are clearly marked with artificially popping out textures. You can no longer use them on any wooden surface, only on those that are specifically signposted as ROPE ARROW SPOTS with an extremely artificial visual cue.

One of the few modern games that works well without any markers or artificial signposts are Dishonored and Dishonored 2. Deactivate ALL the artificial handholding interface elements, and you won't even notice they were ever there. The games feel like they were designed to be played without those markers, and they work extremely well that way. You always know where to go because you goals are clear. You always know where you can climb up because you can climb up pretty much anywhere... just like in the original Tomb Raider games, your mobility is not restricted by anything artificial. Every surface in the game follows the same rules. Any ledge can be mantled up, any surface can be stood on if you manage to get there. Exploration is natural because it is not crippled by artificial restrictions, and no artificial signposting is required because the environment itself already tells you everything you need to know. If you can see it, you can interact with it, because everything is interactable.

Going back to isometric RPGs - Fallout, while not having intricate systemic design that covers everything with a universal physics engine like immersive sims do, has one thing that few other RPGs have: a skilldex that lets you pick skills and apply them to any object you see in the world. No exceptions. If you can click it, you can try to use a skill on it. That system is reminiscent of point and click adventure interfaces, specifically Lucas Arts adventures. In Lucas Arts adventures, you have a row of verbs at the bottom which you use to interact with the world. Open, close, take, talk to, look at, push, pull, give, use. Wow, that's a lot of useful verbs. Meanwhile, most RPGs just have contextual button clicks: you click on something interactable and there's a default action tied to that click. You click on an NPC, you talk to them. You click on a door, you open it. You click on loot, you pick it up. Etc. And while that's all you need to do in 99% of cases, it definitely makes other environmental interactions that don't use the generic standard action more difficult to present to the player naturally. That's why games like Pathfinder have to do shit like "Click here to do [specific adventure game style solution]". They don't have a system to handle skill and item interactions with environment objects. Fallout does have such a system: the skilldex, which allows you to use ANY skill on ANY object in the environment. An NPC is hurt and needs help? Most RPGs will make healing him either an action that's selected as a dialogue choice when you talk to him, or will add a special unique one-off interaction button to heal him. In Fallout, you just select your doctor skill and use it on the NPC.

If you want players to be able to come to their own conclusions and find their own solutions, you need to give them an interface and game rules that allow for it. If you can use any skill on any object in the world, players will be able to experiment a lot more and you won't have to add specific one-off interaction prompts that only work in one place and then never appear again. If you design your levels in a natural way where every surface behaves in the same consistent way, you won't have to place artificial signposting like white ledges and shit, because the environment itself gives you enough navigational information to get through it.
 

PorkaMorka

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It's very rare for RPGs to do environmental interaction puzzles well, even the Fallout example is not good, just acceptable, because most of the time you can't use your skills on all the logical objects, only in a few scripted hot spots.

It's not a matter of logically thinking about how you can solve a problem, it's just a hunt for scripted hot spots to click on.

It's pointless to have this stuff in most games, since they can't do it right.

In contrast, some of those Zombie survival roguelikes make every item one that you can interact with, so they avoid the scripted hotspot problem. (But mostly this just comes down to memorizing dumb formulas from the wiki or pointlessly clicking in menus for hours).

This is an area where computer games are less fun than PNP, not sure if this problem will be solved.
 
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It's very rare for RPGs to do environmental interaction puzzles well, even the Fallout example is not good, just acceptable, because most of the time you can't use your skills on all the logical objects, only in a few scripted hot spots.

It's not a matter of logically thinking about how you can solve a problem, it's just a hunt for scripted hot spots to click on.

It's pointless to have this stuff in most games, since they can't do it right.

In contrast, some of those Zombie survival roguelikes make every item one that you can interact with, so they avoid the scripted hotspot problem. (But mostly this just comes down to memorizing dumb formulas from the wiki or pointlessly clicking in menus for hours).

This is an area where computer games are less fun than PNP, not sure if this problem will be solved.

The only way this gets solved it by going the simulationist route. Basically what Underworld Ascendant wanted to be.
 

gurugeorge

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The problem with graphical fidelity or greater realism games (because readability of the game world declines in a visual soup) isn't so much a problem of photorealism, it's a problem to do with the fact that we normally pick out 3-dimensional objects by means of our eyes reckoning depth by co-ordinating their focus (I forget what the technical term is, but that's the idea). In 2-d terms the world is hugely messy, even messier than highly photorealitic games, yet we navigate it just fine and can spot relevant objects well into the distance, and it's because of this factor.

That option to selectively focus on distance is missing when you're parsing a 2-d surface that's merely representing a 3-d world, and it isn't solved by pseudo 3-d in 2-d solutions, or even VR - although it's possible that VR might be able to solve it (Carmack reckoned it's the hardest problem but that VR might be able to solve it). The other option for solving it is the "holotank" type of idea, where your eyes just do their normal job. Or of course some kind of direct interface, but that's still a long way off, and I'm not sure people will go for it anyway by the time it comes (as the "gee-whizz lemme have it" attitude to new and hi tech will have long disappeared from society by that time).

It's also part of the reason some people get dizzy or nauseous even with something like Doom - their visual system is "expecting" to track 3-d objects in depth as it normally does, but it's baulked of its function, which sets off alarm bells in the brain.
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
Going back to isometric RPGs - Fallout, while not having intricate systemic design that covers everything with a universal physics engine like immersive sims do, has one thing that few other RPGs have: a skilldex that lets you pick skills and apply them to any object you see in the world. No exceptions. If you can click it, you can try to use a skill on it. That system is reminiscent of point and click adventure interfaces, specifically Lucas Arts adventures. In Lucas Arts adventures, you have a row of verbs at the bottom which you use to interact with the world. Open, close, take, talk to, look at, push, pull, give, use. Wow, that's a lot of useful verbs. Meanwhile, most RPGs just have contextual button clicks: you click on something interactable and there's a default action tied to that click. You click on an NPC, you talk to them. You click on a door, you open it. You click on loot, you pick it up. Etc. And while that's all you need to do in 99% of cases, it definitely makes other environmental interactions that don't use the generic standard action more difficult to present to the player naturally. That's why games like Pathfinder have to do shit like "Click here to do [specific adventure game style solution]". They don't have a system to handle skill and item interactions with environment objects. Fallout does have such a system: the skilldex, which allows you to use ANY skill on ANY object in the environment. An NPC is hurt and needs help? Most RPGs will make healing him either an action that's selected as a dialogue choice when you talk to him, or will add a special unique one-off interaction button to heal him. In Fallout, you just select your doctor skill and use it on the NPC.
This thread actually grew out of posts I made in the pillows thread which is related to this
Interacting with the world through dialogue options is the opposite of tabletop-like design. Using skills/items/spells/whatever to interact with the world is more of a tabletop-like design, such as most of Fallout, charm in BG1, etc.,
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that pillows has at least one dialogue option that lets you charm someone.

A lot of modern RPGs remind me of this
image.png


If Fallout/2 was made today, you wouldn't be able to use science on every computer you encounter. There would just be a few computers throughout the world you'd be able to interact with that are clearly marked as such. Every other computer would be a non-interactable terminal that your character knows through some fifth sense has no valuable information without checking it.

I don't consider this good design or moving in a better direction.
Specifically related to the healing part,
Another favorite of mine is when you can heal wounded NPCs that exist in the world without being prompted to and the game actually acknowledges it or even allows you to do it. I'm always surprised when you can't despite how much more common that is than being allowed to, it's one of the first things I'd do in a tabletop RPG in a similar situation.

I'm pretty sure I first encountered this in Shadows of Undrentide and have tried to do it in every RPG I've played since where the situation comes up. IIRC you get rewarded in some way if you heal the wounded people in the town hall or whatever it was, but I don't think the game specifically tells or even asks you to do it.
and it gets even dumber the further you go in this 'lineage', here's how world interactions work in wrath of the righteous:
20210405153428-1.jpg

How-to-complete-Spies-Amidst-Our-Ranks-in-Pathfinder-Wrath-of-the-Righteous-1.jpg


all you do is click it. That's it, that's your entire meaningful interaction. The game tells you what to click, and you click it.
I can't wait to see where it goes from here, maybe they'll take out that strenuous clicking part. Wouldn't want to waste anyone's time, after all.
The more I think on this, the more I realize that -- for lack of a better way to describe it -- context sensitive interactions in RPGs is a bad idea.
RPGs are inherently part adventure game. I'll admit I don't play a lot of "pure" adventure games, but I'm pretty sure this type of design would cause adventure game fans to seethe.
Fallout's "action cursor"(their term from the manual) preserves the adventure game aspect. Would Fallout be a worse game if the cursor was context sensitive rather than having the user figure out what to do? ...I think so, yes.
Although the screenshot goes even further beyond a hypothetical context-sensitive cursor by not even requiring you to identify what object you need to interact with.


I'll need to think on this for a while. :avatard:

Stumbled upon an interesting perspective from an adventure game fan
https://community.telltale.com/discussion/423/shacknews-and-context-sensitive-click-interface
I think everything about the new Sam and Max game looks great, but I just read this preview at ShackNews and this disturbed me: "This game opts to filter the player's interactions with the world down to a context-sensitive click interface, rather than giving a list of verbs that the player can execute. Clicking on a person is likely to initiate a conversation, while clicking on an item may cause Sam either to examine it or pick it up."
Half the fun of adventure games is figuring out on your own what you're supposed to be doing. When you are held by your hand and guided through the whole thing, it becomes less an interaction and more just watching something play itself. I think this is probably being done so as not to intimidate those unfamiliar with adventure games, but I say, why not have both options available? Simply have an option that either the cursor automatically changes to whatever it is above, or the player manually cycles through the different cursors (say, with the right click). Those that are more experienced can go to the settings and choose to manually cycle -- and for those that aren't, it will be set-up initially to be automatic.
Now, maybe that wasn't done because of all the things the character has to say in response to things he can't do. But then, why not just record one broad line of dialogue? "I don't want to do that" or something (like Hoagie in Day of the Tentacle.)
This is such a simple thing, but it really would limit the fun of the game, I think, not to have the ability to do this manually.

I just think the genre went in the wrong direction. Maybe Fallout isn't the best, but I think it's a whole lot better than "click the button and something awesome happens"

 

FriendlyMerchant

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Yet you shill for BG3 which commits all the same crimes. Interesting.
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
Yet you shill for BG3 which commits all the same crimes. Interesting.
I actually brought this up in the original thread. I have issues with BG3(which I discussed,) but it allows environmental interactions. e.g., in this image
How-to-complete-Spies-Amidst-Our-Ranks-in-Pathfinder-Wrath-of-the-Righteous-1.jpg

You'd be expected to use the Jump skill to jump there manually in BG3.
 

CabbageHead

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After lurking for a year and reading a lot of threads like this in the RPG subforum, I have a sneaking suspicion that some people here really just want immersive simulation games.

Will people here stop pretending that they care about PnP RPG rules in their roleplaying videogames if, in the near future, technology can provide a detailed simulation where every aspect of the player character is simulated and you can interact with any object or solve puzzles/problems in a realistic way? Will the need for abstraction in roleplaying videogames end with that?
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
After lurking for a year and reading a lot of threads like this in the RPG subforum, I have a sneaking suspicion that some people here really just want immersive simulation games.

Will people here stop pretending that they care about PnP RPG rules in their roleplaying videogames if, in the near future, technology can provide a detailed simulation where every aspect of the player character is simulated and you can interact with any object or solve puzzles/problems in a realistic way? Will the need for abstraction in roleplaying videogames end with that?
"immersive sim" isn't a real genre, it's just a phrase that means "RPG actually acting like an RPG instead of a visual novel"
 

FriendlyMerchant

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Yet you shill for BG3 which commits all the same crimes. Interesting.
I actually brought this up in the original thread. I have issues with BG3(which I discussed,) but it allows environmental interactions. e.g., in this image
How-to-complete-Spies-Amidst-Our-Ranks-in-Pathfinder-Wrath-of-the-Righteous-1.jpg

You'd be expected to use the Jump skill to jump there manually in BG3.

DOS2 has a jump attack which can be exploited to jump around a map (even if there is no movement prior as high jumps and long jumps both require 10 feet of movement. Without that you can only jump about 3 feet or so in height or a short distance forward on even elevation). WotR doesn't have an engine that supports that type of thing so there has to be contextual interactions for jumping. It's really just this one thing. Can you jump at any time or is it contextual?
 

CabbageHead

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Well, I should've known better. Putting "immersive" in there is going to rustle someone's jimmies. What I mean by "immersive simulation game" is just that: a very immersive simulation game, not the marketing buzzword "immersive sim"
 

agris

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*repair check: failed*
sorry looks like your character can't open vents, try again next game
And? It's an RPG, not an adventure game.
And it's a shame there aren't no adventures in Fallout engine. Here we can effortlessly interact with any object ingame with any skill or item from inventory and devs barely scratched the surface of possibilities in original Fallouts.

Dude, there are numerous total conversions of Fallout 2, with whole new campaigns. Especially Fallout of Nevada and Olympus 2207 are similar to adventure games in their use of items in quests. Fallout: Resurrection is less reliant on item-based puzzles. Not sure about Fallout: Sonora.
Yeah, I know the main stuff. Nevada and Olympus were super buggy several years back, so it kinda smudged the impression. Resurrection is legid good but it is more akin to originals. I've yet to try Sonora. Still I would love to play something like Quest for Glory hybrid in Fallout's engine.
[...] the Fallout 2 mod, Fallout Nevada, actually somewhat fits the request for another adventure/RPG hybrid. I played it a bit and was confused by the deeper integration of adventure game elements than either proper Fallout had, but in retrospect it would probably be fun to play it and think of as a more RPG-heavy QfG like.

I think Nevada is pretty stable now that it's been out for > 5 years, it appears to be in maintenance mode. https://www.nma-fallout.com/threads/fallout-nevada-extended.207311/
 

KateMicucci

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After lurking for a year and reading a lot of threads like this in the RPG subforum, I have a sneaking suspicion that some people here really just want immersive simulation games.

Will people here stop pretending that they care about PnP RPG rules in their roleplaying videogames if, in the near future, technology can provide a detailed simulation where every aspect of the player character is simulated and you can interact with any object or solve puzzles/problems in a realistic way? Will the need for abstraction in roleplaying videogames end with that?
That's what I want. I want to feel like I'm a really dude breaking into a dungeon and looting shit. I don't care about boomer PNP rules. Gygax did the best simulation he could with dice, but now we have better technology.
 

wishbonetail

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After lurking for a year and reading a lot of threads like this in the RPG subforum, I have a sneaking suspicion that some people here really just want immersive simulation games.

Will people here stop pretending that they care about PnP RPG rules in their roleplaying videogames if, in the near future, technology can provide a detailed simulation where every aspect of the player character is simulated and you can interact with any object or solve puzzles/problems in a realistic way? Will the need for abstraction in roleplaying videogames end with that?
Abstractions stimulate higher brain function and a lot of people find pleasure in that. It is like turning letters and words in books into images in your brain can be more immersive than actual image.
 

PorkaMorka

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After lurking for a year and reading a lot of threads like this in the RPG subforum, I have a sneaking suspicion that some people here really just want immersive simulation games.

Will people here stop pretending that they care about PnP RPG rules in their roleplaying videogames if, in the near future, technology can provide a detailed simulation where every aspect of the player character is simulated and you can interact with any object or solve puzzles/problems in a realistic way? Will the need for abstraction in roleplaying videogames end with that?

No, actual attempts at actually simulating the real world in a computer game are almost always going to be bad and un-fun.

Imagine putting an actual simulation of real world computer hacking in a computer game, I can't imagine anything less fun.

That's where pen and paper roleplaying games come in. P&P "simulates" a game world in a way which is intentionally abstracted, that allows for game mechanics that are easy to understand, fun to play and that are designed to create a certain feel, depending on the game, for example heroism and adventure or grimdarkness. "Roll a d20 vs your hacking skill to hack the terminal".

But part of the reason that P&P is fun is because you can understand the rules of the game, treat them as a sort of laws of physics and use that basis to come up with solutions to problems on your own. You can be creative and try things that seem like they might work according to in-game logic. You aren't just limited to a series of scripted encounters where you just click on the specific scripted hotspot to solve the problem in the ways the devs intended.

That's the benefit of (heavily abstracted) "simulation".

In CRPGs it's usually only possible to be creative and come up with your own solutions in a few parts of the game, where there is the most mechanical depth, usually areas like combat or character building, usually the other stuff is just a shallow mini-game.
 

plem

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except WotR isn't a small scale immersive adventure like Fallout but a grand campaign of interplanar warfare where you command thousands of people across huge swaths of land over many months of in-game time... so there's a different level of granular detail to be expected. it leans more into the strategy and management aspect of RPGs rather than the exploration.
 

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