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Game News Desslock – Decline of Gaming and Dragon Age II

attackfighter

Magister
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
2,307
Befuddled Halfling said:
Gosling said:
Desslock is actually right - in a lot of instances enemies in DA were handplaced and utilized terrain: archers and mages were put on raised terrain or balconies, well behind the fighter lines, while narrow passageways leading to them were filled with traps, thieves would ambush you at the most innoportune moment, firebal-hurling arcane horrors would suddenly break into a room when you were surrounded by zombies, even in the Korkari wilds the Genlock Emissary (or whatever the guy's name) would retreat after being hit only to lure you into a a carefuly set ambush.
There was a lot of mindless enemy mobs too, but quite a large number of encounters were actually well-designed.

As it has been mentioned before the tedium of DA combat stemmed from fighting the same 3 enemy archetypes countless times over and having a limited set of tactics due to a not very complicated combat system. But saying that there was no thought behind encounter design just because you did not like the game is stretching the truth a bit too much.

Exactly. Origins put lots of thought in 90% of its encounter design. Almost everyone complaining of trash/filler will fit into one of these categories:

1) Playing on console (so a different game basically)
2) Playing on PC at normal or below (where enemy abilities have been nerfed to triviality and do indeed become "trash"). Think that hard = just more HP = more time
3) Primarily a storyfag (so any combat other than story specific = "filler")
4) Only accepts turn based as valid combat system (or some other CGA system from the DOS era).
5) Holds the length of DAO against it (after 50 hours you've seen it all, therefore combat = repetitive)
6) Ultra picky in pointing at a few overpowered skills (Mana Clash, Cone of Cold) as evidence of whole system being "shit". Or are under the illusion that 3 or 4 template tactics work for most encounters.
7) Bragging ("beat Jarvia on nightmare solo, unarmed, first playthrough, while simultaneously fucking my cat's anus") and the 75% of players kept dying repeatedly on normal in the Tower of Ishal (per BIO telemetry) are retards compared to my awesomeness.

The funny part is, even after Origins' pre-planned ecnounters (which each took an hour to set up on paper, per Knowles) were replaced by DA2's thin air spawning with all enemies indistinguishable from each other (which probably took less than 30 seconds to design), half the Codex still doesn't see see the difference! Fuck DAO, and fuck everything - because we wouldn't know a promising step in the right direction if it bit us on the balls.

This is grade A bullshit, very few encounters had any noticable amount of effort put into them. The few that did were repetitive and uninspired, they usually just had archers on cliffs with traps blocking the path to them and maybe a useless balista sitting around. I highly doubt they took 1 hour each to design, perhaps they took 1 hour each to implement with their construction set, but if it took them hours just thinking up "man this encounter would be, like, TOTALLY EPIC if we added some archers to this cliff, or something" then they are fucking retards.

Also, all of DAO's encounter variations are present in DA2, as well. All of them except for ballistas.

PS I like how you spend half your post building up a strawman of those alleged "DAO haters" you seem to be butthurt about.
 

Gord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
Thanks to recent steam sale I'm only now playing DA:O for the first time and not very far in, but yes, there are encounters where you can see that they have been designed with some thought behind them. They are not exactly the majority as far as I can tell, but they are present. In those cases employing some tactics does actually help.
It's offset somewhat by many other combats that consist of the same few enemies, however.
Also, after reading about them in the Codex I'm dreading the Deep Roads...

Graphics/art style is working well enough. Heck, how many cRPGs are there that have a really unique/noteworthy artstyle that truly stands out amongst the competition? Many of Codex' beloved classics certainly don't do.
I can live with that anyway.

Now all I know from DA2 is the demo, but that certainly didn't help selling the game to me. If the rest of DA2 combat is like in the demo it's a lot worse than DA:O.

Btw.: Is it worth upping the difficulty in DA:O to hard? If it's just more hitpoints on enemies I'll pass.
Also what's about those tactics slots? Somehow my party members don't seem to care a lot about them...
 

Dyspaire

Cipher
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
285
Location
Relative
Strange. I've always looked upon Desslock himself as being a decline from the halcyon days of Scorpia.
 

Shannow

Waster of Time
Joined
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Messages
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Finnegan's Wake
Befuddled Halfling said:
Exactly. Origins put lots of thought in 10% of its encounter design. Almost everyone complaining of trash/filler will fit into one of these categories:

1) Playing on console (so a different game basically)
2) Playing on PC at normal or below (where enemy abilities have been nerfed to triviality and do indeed become "trash"). Think that hard = just more HP = more time
3) Primarily a storyfag (so any combat other than story specific = "filler")
4) Only accepts turn based as valid combat system (or some other CGA system from the DOS era).
5) Holds the length of DAO against it (after 50 hours you've seen it all, therefore combat = repetitive)
6) Ultra picky in pointing at a few overpowered skills (Mana Clash, Cone of Cold) as evidence of whole system being "shit". Or are under the illusion that 3 or 4 template tactics work for most encounters.
7) Bragging ("beat Jarvia on nightmare solo, unarmed, first playthrough, while simultaneously fucking my cat's anus") and the 75% of players kept dying repeatedly on normal in the Tower of Ishal (per BIO telemetry) are retards compared to my awesomeness.
Fixed that for ya, Leonard.
 

deus101

Never LET ME into a tattoo parlor!
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Messages
2,059
Project: Eternity Wasteland 2
Luzur said:
Desslock? more like Dasslock.

For the the non-scandinavian...


Dass = lu, john, shitter, porcelain

Lock = (sounds like lokk) = lid

...Toilet Seat..... :M


I'll shut up now.
 
Joined
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MCA
Befuddled Halfling said:
Exactly. Origins put lots of thought in 90% of its encounter design. Almost everyone complaining of trash/filler will fit into one of these categories:

1) Playing on console (so a different game basically)

Played on PC.

2) Playing on PC at normal or below (where enemy abilities have been nerfed to triviality and do indeed become "trash"). Think that hard = just more HP = more time

Played at hardest difficulty.

3) Primarily a storyfag (so any combat other than story specific = "filler")

I'm a combatfag. I can take punishment with extreme prejudice in "insane" mode in JA2 v1.13. But that's beside the point. The point is, there's no rule dictating any rule regarding grind and story so your position is invalid to begin with.

4) Only accepts turn based as valid combat system (or some other CGA system from the DOS era).

This is a plain stupid strawman. So the only valid reply is "fuck you". Therefore, fuck you. And for the record, I enjoyed BG2 and IWD series. Especially in IWD's case, the degree of challenge of the highest difficulty in DAO doesn't hold a candle to the normal difficulty in IWD.

5) Holds the length of DAO against it (after 50 hours you've seen it all, therefore combat = repetitive)

I've sunk several times more into games without complaining (or rather, falling asleep) as much as I did with DAO.

6) Ultra picky in pointing at a few overpowered skills (Mana Clash, Cone of Cold) as evidence of whole system being "shit". Or are under the illusion that 3 or 4 template tactics work for most encounters.

I went through the entire game in highest difficulty with 3 tactical templates. Read that again, asshole: E-N-T-I-R-E GAME.

7) Bragging ("beat Jarvia on nightmare solo, unarmed, first playthrough, while simultaneously fucking my cat's anus") and the 75% of players kept dying repeatedly on normal in the Tower of Ishal (per BIO telemetry) are retards compared to my awesomeness.

I don't even get what you're trying to say here, but I assume you are demonstrating your idiocy.

The funny part is, even after Origins' pre-planned ecnounters (which each took an hour to set up on paper, per Knowles)

Yep, those "pre-planned encounters" were the definitely the top of the game, the crop of the cream where the game telegraphed what was about to take place to you in advance from miles away every single time, as far going as giving away the positions of adversary and try to provide TEH CHALLENGEZ by resetting your party's last positions, teleporting them all of them to the predesignated spots set for the forced dialogue encounter. Yup, that's what I call some motherfucking quality in my games.

Hint: sinking time into something doesn't render it as high quality by default, just by the mere "virtue" of having sunk time into creating it. Oh wait, I'm talking to the same faggot who thinks he can judge an old game by the time and platform it was released on.

DA2's thin air spawning with all enemies indistinguishable from each other (which probably took less than 30 seconds to design),

Are you trying to say that enemies in DAO were distinguishable from each other? Well, yes I guess there was an average of 2 more ranks of any given enemy, like the darkspawn, humans, animals etc. Great variety.

I haven't played DA2 myself but enemy variety wasn't anything to write home. I can only say that it usually didn't make much sense.

half the Codex still doesn't see see the difference! Fuck DAO, and fuck everything - because we wouldn't know a promising step in the right direction if it bit us on the balls.

You are trying too hard son but the more striking point is, if you are so annoyed, why are you sticking around?

As a result, here's my own treatise of what this anti-KKKodeks movement defending shit games can be broken down to:

1) Likes to talk out of his ass

2) Likes to think that current crop of games present a fair challenge, especially at -wait for it- highest (OMG!) difficulties and consequently, considers himself a grand strategist for having beaten what's a dumbed down piece of shit game.

3) Can not differentiate between shit combat encounter and good combat encounter nor even explain what makes either good or bad.

4) Likes to antagonise on mere basis of the length of time between two references with utter disregard and ignorance of the predecessors. In short, a complete GAMING NIGGER! (a new addition to my special terminology, you heard it here first!), not much different than all the gaming niggers calling themselves "game journalists". All in all, just a bunch of niggers.

5) Militant ideologue that resorts to using a brief & incomplete argument he once read somewhere to try to fit into a complete "world view" on something else without the willingness to break it down. In other words, a damn stupid motherfucker.

6) If you have a little sister, or better yet, a little daughter, I'd like to have a round with her.
 
Joined
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Messages
188
attackfighter said:
very few encounters had any noticable amount of effort put into them.
I'll concede the Fade and the deep stalkers/early sections of the deep roads. The rest? Show me better encounters this side of 2003 in an RPG of similar length.

attackfighter said:
Also, all of DAO's encounter variations are present in DA2, as well. All of them except for ballistas.
Agreed. But 99% of the organ variations of human are also found in a pig. 90% of components variations in my PC today were present in my PC from 2002. And? It's the detail in all these components, and the way they are assembled together.

Are you saying that the Arcane Horror from the Brecilian ruins works the same in DAO and DA2? Or the Revenant? In DAO these enemies were hand placed, in varying ratios, with varying distances and powers. In DA2 they were just dumped on you (literally), with generic powers and behaviors. Compare the larger encounters in DAO to eveything spawning on top of you in DA2. DAO plan v DA2 always ambush. The frenetic speed of DA2, its wave mechanic, the distance between PC and enemies, means encounter variations only look the same in description.

attackfighter said:
PS I like how you spend half your post building up a strawman of those alleged "DAO haters" you seem to be butthurt about.
OK, someone says: "All Video Games SUCK".
You reply: "people who think that all video games suck generally fit into one of these 5 categories:"
1) They think gaming is uncool and nerdy
2) They don't have the time
3) They don't have the rig
4) They think games are for kids
5) They prefer passive entertainment (TV cinema)

Are those categories strawmen? Am I butthurt that someone doesn't like games? Are the categories false? Do they attack the haters? Don't they help you decide that maybe video games wouldn't suck for you, if they weren't in that group of 5? Or maybe you might change your view that they suck if you realized you were in 1) and decided to be more open minded?
 
Joined
Feb 23, 2011
Messages
188
villain of the story said:
Played on PC.
Played at hardest difficulty.
I'm a combatfag
OK, you got my attention.

villain of the story said:
I went through the entire game in highest difficulty with 3 tactical templates. Read that again, asshole: E-N-T-I-R-E GAME.
What were they, and what order did you do the game in (Tower, Dalish, Orzammar, Redcliffe)?

villain of the story said:
the game telegraphed what was about to take place to you in advance from miles away every single time, as far going as giving away the positions of adversary and try to provide TEH CHALLENGEZ by resetting your party's last positions, teleporting them all of them to the predesignated spots set for the forced dialogue encounter.
I admit they are faults. Doesn't make the whole combat shit.

villain of the story said:
Are you trying to say that enemies in DAO were distinguishable from each other? Well, yes I guess there was an average of 2 more ranks of any given enemy, like the darkspawn, humans, animals etc. Great variety.
All the human enemies used the powers from the player skill trees. Including magic, that's a lot, imho. Then the grab, knockdown, ovewhelm, stunlock, poison, elemental damage etc of monsters. How much more do you want?

villain of the story said:
You are trying too hard son but the more striking point is, if you are so annoyed, why are you sticking around?
This is why you will never win your fight to get thinking games to make a comeback. 100% militant, no new allies. Either hate what I hate (ie everything after Morrowind, am I right?), or gtfo. Fuck you for not shitting on a game which went a decent way towards what the Codex claims to aim for, a game which went against the trend costing the lead designer his job. Fuck him. He should have gone further, right?

villain of the story said:
As a result, here's my own treatise of what this anti-KKKodeks movement defending shit games can be broken down to:
-snip-
add 7) Believes that shitting on everything will never get game designers to do decent stuff. Counterproductive to the cause. Console Kiddies hated DAO because it made their brains hurt. Codex shits on DAO because it still wasn't BG3. If someone makes a decent stab at a game that bucks the 'baby-first' trend, it should be criticized for not going far enough, but not ripped a new asshole.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,693
Desslock is grudgingly playing DA2, but also Drakensang: River of Time, Two Worlds II and the apparently obsolete masterpiece, Dragon Age: Origins.
I'm annoyed by DA fanboys almost as much as Volourn. By what possible metric could DA be considered a masterpiece?
 

attackfighter

Magister
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
2,307
Befuddled Halfling said:
I'll concede the Fade and the deep stalkers/early sections of the deep roads. The rest? Show me better encounters this side of 2003 in an RPG of similar length.

You're asking me to find another 60 hour long 'isometric' RPG post 2003... that's nearly impossible.

Agreed. But 99% of the organ variations of human are also found in a pig. 90% of components variations in my PC today were present in my PC from 2002. And? It's the detail in all these components, and the way they are assembled together.

I fail to see how pig organs and computer components are relevant metaphors. Sometimes large differences make small impacts, other times the opposite is true; citing a bunch of trivia isn't going to convince me that you're right.

Are you saying that the Arcane Horror from the Brecilian ruins works the same in DAO and DA2? Or the Revenant? In DAO these enemies were hand placed, in varying ratios, with varying distances and powers. In DA2 they were just dumped on you (literally), with generic powers and behaviors. Compare the larger encounters in DAO to eveything spawning on top of you in DA2. DAO plan v DA2 always ambush. The frenetic speed of DA2, its wave mechanic, the distance between PC and enemies, means encounter variations only look the same in description.

DA2 had hand placed enemies as well. And regardless, their placement barely had any effect on gameplay. I don't even remember what the arcane horror was, that was how little my fight with it differed from any other encounter.

OK, someone says: "All Video Games SUCK".
You reply: "people who think that all video games suck generally fit into one of these 5 categories:"
1) They think gaming is uncool and nerdy
2) They don't have the time
3) They don't have the rig
4) They think games are for kids
5) They prefer passive entertainment (TV cinema)

Are those categories strawmen? Am I butthurt that someone doesn't like games? Are the categories false? Do they attack the haters? Don't they help you decide that maybe video games wouldn't suck for you, if they weren't in that group of 5? Or maybe you might change your view that they suck if you realized you were in 1) and decided to be more open minded?

You implied that the majority of people who disagreed with you were either consoletards, "ultra picky" or a number of other things.
 

Gord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
villain of the story said:
As a result, here's my own treatise of what this anti-KKKodeks movement defending shit games can be broken down to:
snip

A shame that the perceived way to KoolKodexKredits is to unreflectively herp-derp-bash every game that came out after 2000/1995/1990 and at the same time brag about playing old games that very often sport exactly the same faults.

I'm not saying that many of the games don't deserve it either way, but it's sad that thanks to this most of the time a discussion will not go beyond even the most minimal of standards.

While I think that it's naive to hope that any major developer might take criticism from the codex to the heart, I have to somewhat agree with our hairy-footed friend here.

Then again, I'm only a 2011 newfag, so who cares?
 
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I'm done dealing with newfags who work hard to earn their title. It's all very typical and very predictable: "You hate every game that came out after 2000, every game that is 3D and every game that is real-time/isn't turn-based, blah blah blah". Year after year. Always. The Same. Completely .Unsupported. Bullshit. Bullshit that's proven false every time a new game comes out and again anytime a discussion about any recent game takes off. Gotta ask, do you even read the Codex at all? or just go with the popular outsider opinion of "them Codexers don't like a single game since 2000" bullshit? Not a real question, don't bother answering since the answer is obvious (and I've already pressed the Awesome KKKodeks Butan! and something awesome indeed happened). I mean, it gets tiresome to respond to such unsubstantiated bullshit after a point. Not any fun either. I myself alone can think of at least 10 games released since 2000 that enjoy relatively high opinions of Codexers. And that's excluding some console games (yes, a good amount of people here even think that some exclusively console RPGs are rather good. Hard to believe? Well that's why your opinions sucks and isn't worth a shit.)
 

Elzair

Cipher
Joined
Apr 7, 2009
Messages
2,254
I just do not see how Desslock can trash Ultima 8 and praise Fallout 3. The decline is strong.
 

Lesifoere

Liturgist
Joined
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Messages
4,071
Gord said:
Graphics/art style is working well enough. Heck, how many cRPGs are there that have a really unique/noteworthy artstyle that truly stands out amongst the competition? Many of Codex' beloved classics certainly don't do.

Lol?

Planescape: Torment much? Shit, TOEE has gorgeous art. More recently, The Witcher's art direction puts pretty much everything Bioware's ever shat out to shame.

Befuddled Halfling said:
I'll concede the Fade and the deep stalkers/early sections of the deep roads. The rest? Show me better encounters this side of 2003 in an RPG of similar length.

I'll play, you fucking tool. King's Bounty: The Legend/Armored Princess. I'm playing it right now. It's amazing, the encounters; there are actual varieties in units and spells and abilities and everything.

Am I butthurt that someone doesn't like games?

Actually, yes, you are. Leaping to defend something to the death is pretty much the hallmark of butthurt.

All the human enemies used the powers from the player skill trees. Including magic, that's a lot, imho. Then the grab, knockdown, ovewhelm, stunlock, poison, elemental damage etc of monsters. How much more do you want?

lol are you for real

All encounters in DA comprise of two mages, some archers, and some melee units. All of which behave exactly the same regardless of their race or creature type.

Codex shits on DAO because it still wasn't BG3. If someone makes a decent stab at a game that bucks the 'baby-first' trend, it should be criticized for not going far enough, but not ripped a new asshole.

Oh no, Codex shits on a game that's a completely, utterly tedious piece of shit. Oh no.
 
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Messages
7,953
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commie said:
Cuntfish said:
What's this faggot's real name?

Does he fancy himself a Transformer or some shit?

Fuck me, Desslock is not a fucking Transformer! Desslock is the Anglo naming of Desslar, the leader of the Gamilons in 'Star Blazers'(Space Battleship Yamato).

Where's a Star Blazers RPG or strategy so I have an excuse to have a Desslar avatar?

"Leader Desslock! Give me one more chance to destroy the Star Force!"

image011.jpg
 

thesisko

Emissary
Joined
Jan 3, 2011
Messages
354
Project: Eternity Wasteland 2
Befuddled Halfling said:
I'll concede the Fade and the deep stalkers/early sections of the deep roads. The rest? Show me better encounters this side of 2003 in an RPG of similar length.

NWN2 / MotB / SoZ? I've also seen some people write the Drakensang games have better encounter design. I suppose DA was better than KOTOR in that department though.
 

Daemongar

Arcane
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Messages
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Wisconsin
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
Jaesun said:
Ultima VIII: Pagan's The Execution Scene (and music) are still far better than any thing BioWare has ever done in the Dragon Age series...
It certainly set the tone that we weren't in Britannia. On the other hand, it reminded me of the executioners relationship with someone later in the game, which always left me feeling kind of annoyed that it wasn't developed further.
 

Gord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
Lesifoere said:
Lol?

Planescape: Torment much? Shit, TOEE has gorgeous art. More recently, The Witcher's art direction puts pretty much everything Bioware's ever shat out to shame.

So what? I never said that there aren't games that have better art direction. But DA:O is pretty solid in that regard. Not spectacular. Solid. It's just that from reading some comments, one would expect eye cancer just from looking at the games dvd.

Ah, fuck it, graphics is really the least I care about in this game. I only very recently acquired it and have certainly not made up my mind about much else yet.
 

sgc_meltdown

Arcane
Joined
May 8, 2003
Messages
6,000
All this means is that Bioware only had enough marketing funds to facilitate their initial review of DA2, not continued servility.

The reception of DA 2 is what happens when you try to pull an Obsidian without any talent.
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
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Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
Daemongar said:
Jaesun said:
Ultima VIII: Pagan's The Execution Scene (and music) are still far better than any thing BioWare has ever done in the Dragon Age series...
It certainly set the tone that we weren't in Britannia. On the other hand, it reminded me of the executioners relationship with someone later in the game, which always left me feeling kind of annoyed that it wasn't developed further.

When I first saw that as a kid I had to hit CTRL+Pause and be worried someone saw me playing something this violent. Pagan is a terrible Ultima, but a great and atmospheric action-adventure.
 
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This just means they're getting ready to announce DA3.
 

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