Diablo 2: Resurrected remaster

[SomeGuyWithAnOpinion]

That might be the most absurd statement I've ever read on this board. D2 is very deep.

[Laughs in farming the cow level for the 300th time in a row looking for an ultra-rare set item]

D2 has the same problems of most loot-based hack-and-slash action RPGs - grind, optimal best-in-slot items, lack of failure states, and horrendous skill balance.

D2 is alright, and deep enough, but god is it horribly flawed. It's why I largely stopped playing it.

D1 is very primitive by comparison, granted, but I find myself enjoying it more because it functions more as a game and less of an item-hunting simulator.

People who say Diablo 2 is a "cookie clicker" or similar don't understand the game enough to have intelligent opinions about the game's system. The way Diablo 2's skills work is much more complex than most other ARPGs. That's partly the reason why Diablo 2 feels much more satisfying to play than nearly every other ARPG.

D2's skill system is highly flawed.

Skills are either "core skills", at which point you basically put 20 points into them, or they are a complete waste and you put nothing into them. Synergies were added in patches, but still don't cover the majority of skills so a number of skills (like Leap) end up being completely worthless because the more advanced version of the skill makes them completely obsolete.

PD2 somewhat mitigates a lot of these, but if you think D2's big selling point is it's skill system, you frankly haven't done the work to actually analyse the game.

 

[Gregz]

That might be the most absurd statement I've ever read on this board. D2 is very deep.

[Laughs in farming the cow level for the 300th time in a row looking for an ultra-rare set item]

D2 has the same problems of most loot-based hack-and-slash action RPGs - grind, optimal best-in-slot items, lack of failure states, and horrendous skill balance.

D2 is alright, and deep enough, but god is it horribly flawed. It's why I largely stopped playing it.

D1 is very primitive by comparison, granted, but I find myself enjoying it more because it functions more as a game and less of an item-hunting simulator.

OK, fine, but what are you playing that's better?

 

[SomeGuyWithAnOpinion]

OK, fine, but what are you playing that's better?

What's better than grind?

Name literally any game that exists.

D2 hardcore runs are pretty fun, namely because they de-emphasise the best in slot items and make the game more about survival than farming specific items. But it's still a deeply flawed experience that's difficult to enjoy for long periods.

One day I should do a Hardcore Star Run though, probably in PD2 since it's the best version of Diablo 2 that exists currently.[/url]

 

[Gregz]

OK, fine, but what are you playing that's better?

What's better than grind?

Name literally any game that exists.

Eh, you're just meme riffing

 

[SomeGuyWithAnOpinion]

OK, fine, but what are you playing that's better?

What's better than grind?

Name literally any game that exists.

Eh, you're just meme riffing

To be actually realistic, D2 is....okay. It's nothing special gameplay-wise. There's fun to be had and it has great potential, but it's also deeply flawed and lots of game time is spent repeating boring content over and over again.

I find myself playing it for short (enjoyable) periods, and then moving on to other games.

If that's "meme riffing" then whatever.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

PD2?

 

[Cael]

How does hardcore make it any less grindy? In fact, it makes it MORE so as you want to be extra well-equipped for the next stage of the game. When you play with saves, you can experiment, take risks and try stuff. Hardcore is a fucking stupid and restrictive way of playing that is boring and predictable.

 

[Gregz]

OK, fine, but what are you playing that's better?

What's better than grind?

Name literally any game that exists.

Eh, you're just meme riffing

To be actually realistic, D2 is....okay. It's nothing special gameplay-wise. There's fun to be had and it has great potential, but it's also deeply flawed and lots of game time is spent repeating boring content over and over again.

I find myself playing it for short (enjoyable) periods, and then moving on to other games.

If that's "meme riffing" then whatever.

D2 cornered a genre, you have not offered a single title.

 

[Dadd]

How does hardcore make it any less grindy? In fact, it makes it MORE so as you want to be extra well-equipped for the next stage of the game. When you play with saves, you can experiment, take risks and try stuff. Hardcore is a fucking stupid and restrictive way of playing that is boring and predictable.

Hardcore makes the game less grindy because you die permanently. Whether a player repeats areas to get good items depends on individual styles of play. Likewise in softcore. Most people who aren't autistic choose to play in ways that are fun for them even if they're more risky.

 

[SomeGuyWithAnOpinion]

PD2?

https://www.projectdiablo2.com/

D2 cornered a genre, you have not offered a single title.

Pretty much every game in this genre has followed the Diablo 2 model, with all the same problems and pitfalls that entails.

I would argue Path of Exile is a MUCH better game with a lot more depth and content, but it also has the horrible online-only gameplay (which is horrible for people with bad internet), the art style isn't as good, and the free-to-play model still sucks despite being one of the better implementations of that model.

PoE is a much better game overall than D2 though, with much more build diversity, more interesting items (thanks to the sockets system being MUCH more interesting than D2s), the wacky league rules are always good for a new twist, and the balance of characters is far better.

But at the end of the day, pretty much every ARPG has adopted the Diablo 2 model, and they are all bad as a result. I never bothered with games like Torchlight or Grim Dawn because they seem to mostly be D2 but worse. What this genre needs is some new blood to shake things up and eschew all the old (bad) gameplay tropes.

How does hardcore make it any less grindy? In fact, it makes it MORE so as you want to be extra well-equipped for the next stage of the game. When you play with saves, you can experiment, take risks and try stuff. Hardcore is a fucking stupid and restrictive way of playing that is boring and predictable.

Nah. Most endgame content in D2 is largely about number crunching for a particular build or character, and farming a specific item to optimally fill a particular slot. In HC, using sub optimal gear is usually good enough as long as it's not woefully bad. HC is more about using what you have rather than seeking out perfect rolls, so it's far less grindy.

It's definitely possible to complete D2 with suboptimal gear. Getting to the ultra late content (ubers etc) the HC gear will fall off, but that's fine, it's much more fun to die and start again on a new character (and find completely different sub-optimal gear that will enforce a different playstyle) rather than grinding for 50 hours to find the perfect gear for whatever late-game area you're looking to do.

 

[Dadd]

D2's skill system is highly flawed.

Skills are either "core skills", at which point you basically put 20 points into them, or they are a complete waste and you put nothing into them. Synergies were added in patches, but still don't cover the majority of skills so a number of skills (like Leap) end up being completely worthless because the more advanced version of the skill makes them completely obsolete.

PD2 somewhat mitigates a lot of these, but if you think D2's big selling point is it's skill system, you frankly haven't done the work to actually analyse the game.

I was talking about how individual skills work. Synergies lower the diversity of usable skills on each character. PD2 makes players rely more on synergies.

 

[Cael]

How does hardcore make it any less grindy? In fact, it makes it MORE so as you want to be extra well-equipped for the next stage of the game. When you play with saves, you can experiment, take risks and try stuff. Hardcore is a fucking stupid and restrictive way of playing that is boring and predictable.

Nah. Most endgame content in D2 is largely about number crunching for a particular build or character, and farming a specific item to optimally fill a particular slot. In HC, using sub optimal gear is usually good enough as long as it's not woefully bad. HC is more about using what you have rather than seeking out perfect rolls, so it's far less grindy.

It's definitely possible to complete D2 with suboptimal gear. Getting to the ultra late content (ubers etc) the HC gear will fall off, but that's fine, it's much more fun to die and start again on a new character (and find completely different sub-optimal gear that will enforce a different playstyle) rather than grinding for 50 hours to find the perfect gear for whatever late-game area you're looking to do.

Hardcore is about not dying. That means you play safe. You do the optimum. You get the better gear. You aren't going to rush Act 4 with only Act 2 gear because death is permanent. You want to be sure you are prepared, which mean grinding Act 3 until you have the levels and the gear to take on Act 4 in relative safety.

People who play hardcore are delusional if they think it makes for a more "exciting" or less boring gameplay.

 

[luj1]

People who play hardcore are delusional if they think it makes for a more "exciting" or less boring gameplay.

I enjoy HC way more

slower, more methodical gameplay where every mob encounter matters, likewise every item matters, etc.

HC is not mindless (unlike SC)

 

[Cael]

People who play hardcore are delusional if they think it makes for a more "exciting" or less boring gameplay.

I enjoy HC way more

slower, more methodical gameplay where every mob encounter matters, likewise every item matters, etc.

HC is not mindless (unlike SC)

Taking risks, trying out new stuff, being innovative is not "mindless". Playing the same way every time because it is the optimal way is "mindless".

 

[SomeGuyWithAnOpinion]

I was talking about how individual skills work. Synergies lower the diversity of usable skills on each character. PD2 makes players rely more on synergies.

Even when it comes to individual skills, for every interesting mechanic (kicks, fireballs, warcries, etc) there's a boring "Adds +12% damage" or "Adds +1 evasion" skill in the same tree.

Also, synergies are where the strategy lies. Building your entire build around 2-3 random unrelated skills is BORING.

I enjoy HC way more

slower, more methodical gameplay where every mob encounter matters, likewise every item matters, etc.

HC is not mindless (unlike SC)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ha7HAG6jVqc

Finally someone who actually gets it.

I'm convinced the people who think HC are mindless have never played HC and only looked at it once, said "eww permadeath!" and never touched it again. Everything matters when the stakes are high. In SC you literally just rush stuff over and over again with no regard for death.

 

[Dadd]

I was talking about how individual skills work. Synergies lower the diversity of usable skills on each character. PD2 makes players rely more on synergies.

Even when it comes to individual skills, for every interesting mechanic (kicks, fireballs, warcries, etc) there's a boring "Adds +12% damage" or "Adds +1 evasion" skill in the same tree.

On the previous page, we were talking about animations, frames, etc., and I was responding to that general discussion. I'm not talking about the distribution of skill points.

 

[Gregz]

PD2?

https://www.projectdiablo2.com/

D2 cornered a genre, you have not offered a single title.

Pretty much every game in this genre has followed the Diablo 2 model, with all the same problems and pitfalls that entails.

I would argue Path of Exile is a MUCH better game with a lot more depth and content, but it also has the horrible online-only gameplay (which is horrible for people with bad internet), the art style isn't as good, and the free-to-play model still sucks despite being one of the better implementations of that model.

PoE is a much better game overall than D2 though, with much more build diversity, more interesting items (thanks to the sockets system being MUCH more interesting than D2s), the wacky league rules are always good for a new twist, and the balance of characters is far better.

But at the end of the day, pretty much every ARPG has adopted the Diablo 2 model, and they are all bad as a result. I never bothered with games like Torchlight or Grim Dawn because they seem to mostly be D2 but worse. What this genre needs is some new blood to shake things up and eschew all the old (bad) gameplay tropes.

How does hardcore make it any less grindy? In fact, it makes it MORE so as you want to be extra well-equipped for the next stage of the game. When you play with saves, you can experiment, take risks and try stuff. Hardcore is a fucking stupid and restrictive way of playing that is boring and predictable.

Nah. Most endgame content in D2 is largely about number crunching for a particular build or character, and farming a specific item to optimally fill a particular slot. In HC, using sub optimal gear is usually good enough as long as it's not woefully bad. HC is more about using what you have rather than seeking out perfect rolls, so it's far less grindy.

It's definitely possible to complete D2 with suboptimal gear. Getting to the ultra late content (ubers etc) the HC gear will fall off, but that's fine, it's much more fun to die and start again on a new character (and find completely different sub-optimal gear that will enforce a different playstyle) rather than grinding for 50 hours to find the perfect gear for whatever late-game area you're looking to do.

I like your response, and I mostly agree with it. I think this design model has tremendous potential, but at the same time it's been optimized. It's a paradox. I love these types of games, and I wish they could grow further ... but nobody seems up to the task.

 

[luj1]

I'm convinced the people who think HC are mindless have never played HC and only looked at it once, said "eww permadeath!" and never touched it again.

Everything matters when the stakes are high. In SC you literally just rush stuff over and over again with no regard for death.

True

 

[luj1]

I love these types of games, and I wish they could grow further ... but nobody seems up to the task.

Cant grow more than MedianXL or ToME

 

[Gregz]

I love these types of games, and I wish they could grow further ... but nobody seems up to the task.

Cant grow more than MedianXL or ToME

I agree, classic Brother Laz MedianXL is peak D2.

 

[luj1]

Some things dont need innovation, they were already perfected

at this point u just need a facelift + QoL (but they even manage to screw that up)

I think there is like 1 worthy remaster in the world, that being Starcraft remaster

 

[Gregz]

Some things dont need innovation, they were already perfected

at this point u just need a facelift + QoL (but they even manage to screw that up)

I think there is like 1 worthy remaster in the world, that being Starcraft remaster

I generally agree with this, although there's only so many times that you can replay something.

 

[luj1]

well i have been playing Diablo 2, Heroes 3, Dota, Morrowind and NWN every year for about 20 years

 

[Gregz]

well i have been playing Diablo 2, Heroes 3, Dota, Morrowind and NWN every year for about 20 years

You, Sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

After years and years of D1 & D2 and many many many mods I got burned out. I really considered this D2R but I just didn’t think a modern facelift was going to change much for me ai didn’t already know in mods. Best for me to maybe try a different game but even then, D2 just left my brain a cinder to the genre.