Diablo clones that don't suxxorz

[Glop_dweller]

Path of Exile 2 will be free to play.

Generally if it's free, then you (the player) are the product being sold.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

while the real-time combat was an afterthought that it sounded like David Brevik didn’t even really want to do at first.

There's several different stories around this, like the real time combat was the result of miscommunication and the game was intended to be turn based. There's also the story that they rushed the combat to make a demo to show the publisher, so they made it real time for the demo but they wanted it to be turn based for the finished product - and it kind of stuck. I've heard several variations around this theme, that they intended to do turn based but through some wackiness behind the scenes stuff, it was shipped with real time combat.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

while the real-time combat was an afterthought that it sounded like David Brevik didn’t even really want to do at first.

There's several different stories around this, like the real time combat was the result of miscommunication and the game was intended to be turn based. There's also the story that they rushed the combat to make a demo to show the publisher, so they made it real time for the demo but they wanted it to be turn based for the finished product - and it kind of stuck. I've heard several variations around this theme, that they intended to do turn based but through some wackiness behind the scenes stuff, it was shipped with real time combat.

I think it’s David Brevik’s GDC talk about Diablo where he says he was doing a turn based system and some people on the team came in with a real-time version of the turn based system they originally had. I want to say he still wanted to go turn based but went with the real-time system because most of the team liked that more.

 

[Glop_dweller]

Segment linked.

 

[Cryomancer]

I'm playing Sacred 1 and 2 at moment and loving the game. Just would't recommend Sacred 3 cuz it sucks like Diablo 3.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

It's not that common that the first game in a genre also happens to be the greatest. D1 and Super Metroid come to mind.

Nigger, it were Super Metroid and SotN that made metroidvanias what they are, not the NES originals. Hence, the first game in a genre is an apt description.

If you really want to split hairs, then D1 isn't the first action RPG either.

Super Metroid doesn’t have anything to do with the Metroidvania genre. Despite the name, as far as I know there isn’t actually any Metroid games that are Metroidvanias. The term Metroidvania came about to describe a specific type of Castlevania game, the Castlevania: Symphony of the Night style of Castlevania games that introduced adventure game stages (Metroid is a side scrolling platformer adventure game) and RPG elements. You need both the side scrolling adventure platforming and the RPG elements to be a Metroidvania.

The non Prime side scrolling Metroid game though are just side scrolling platformer adventure games, Super Metroid is a regular side scrolling platformer adventure game just like the first Metroid on the NES is...they’re the same genre. Metroid is a side scrolling platformer variety on Nintendo’s previous adventure game The Legend of Zelda. The Legend of Zelda is also apparently what inspired Igarashi to go the direction he did with Symphony of the Night.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Just would't recommend Sacred 3 cuz it sucks like Diablo 3.

Sacred 3 is so much worse than Diablo 3, and that's saying a lot.

 

[Vic]

It's not that common that the first game in a genre also happens to be the greatest. D1 and Super Metroid come to mind.

Nigger, it were Super Metroid and SotN that made metroidvanias what they are, not the NES originals. Hence, the first game in a genre is an apt description.

If you really want to split hairs, then D1 isn't the first action RPG either.

There was only one Metroid game for the NES. It has been re-released as Zero Mission for the GBA later on. Not only was it the first Metroid game, but it was also the first metroidvania.

Diagnosis: full retard.

 

[Vic]

Super Metroid doesn’t have anything to do with the Metroidvania genre. Despite the name, as far as I know there isn’t actually any Metroid games that are Metroidvanias.

Oh look, another retard. Well, what's the definition of a metroidvania? As per the wiki, which I can fully agree with:

Metroidvania is a sub-genre of action-adventure games and/or platformers focused on guided non-linearity and utility-gated exploration and progression.

This fits the bill. What you call "rpg elements" is here referenced as "utility-gated exploration", which I think is a better description. Not every metroidvania needs experience points and character equipment.

The term Metroidvania came about to describe a specific type of Castlevania game

And since you seem to have trouble understanding basic concepts:

The term is a portmanteau of the names of the video game series Metroid and Castlevania, based on the template from Metroid (1986), Castlevania II (1987), Super Metroid (1994), and Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (1997).

Anyway, Super Metroid is one of the best metroidvanias.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Not every metroidvania needs experience points and character equipment.

Nah, I'd say that's a hard requirement. If not xp, then gold, or whatever currency. A big part of what makes the genre tick is giving the player the choice of how to progress. One axis of that is multiple routes through the map to reach a given destination (often unlocked by spending said currency) and another is multiple ways of becoming more powerful to defeat stronger enemies and bosses or other obstacles. Equipment is pretty important too because it gives you different ways of using your existing power instead of smushing it all into some boring +1 damage/hp shitpile.

If all you're doing is platforming around hoping to find an upgrade sitting on a shelf somewhere, there's no 'vania in your metroidvania. You've just got an open world platformer. Which can be good too in theory, but it's not the same thing. And I honestly can't think of any good ones aside from Super Metroid, unless you want to count Megaman games, which would be a stretch.

 

[Vic]

Not every metroidvania needs experience points and character equipment.

Nah, I'd say that's a hard requirement. If not xp, then gold, or whatever currency. A big part of what makes the genre tick is giving the player the choice of how to progress. One axis of that is multiple routes through the map to reach a given destination (often unlocked by spending said currency) and another is multiple ways of becoming more powerful to defeat stronger enemies and bosses or other obstacles. Equipment is pretty important too because it gives you different ways of using your existing power instead of smushing it all into some boring +1 damage/hp shitpile.

If all you're doing is platforming around hoping to find an upgrade sitting on a shelf somewhere, there's no 'vania in your metroidvania. You've just got an open world platformer. Which can be good too in theory, but it's not the same thing. And I honestly can't think of any good ones aside from Super Metroid, unless you want to count Megaman games, which would be a stretch.

By equipment I meant RPG-like gear like in Castlevania, not upgrades that enable you to explore previously unreachable areas like a higher jump, etc. A key feature of metroidvanias is unlocking a new ability/upgrade and then backtracking to be able to move past an obstacle that you couldn't before to unlock a new part of the map.

 

[Daemongar]

I was sick of Diablo's and their clones after Diablo 2. Played a lot of them, even Diablo 3. Maybe it was playing the demo of Diablo 1 to death. I don't know. I didn't quite care for Diablo 3, and probably won't care for Diablo 4 when I eventually (against my better judgement) play it. I didn't care for Torchlight 1 & 2, but thought they had some creative properties. I kinda liked Nox, and sorta liked Sacred 1 & 2. And there wre one or two other games I played.

All I can say is all of them were a rip off of Gateway to Apshai, all Diablo's, all of these games.

 

[Damned Registrations]

By equipment I meant RPG-like gear like in Castlevania, not upgrades that enable you to explore previously unreachable areas like a higher jump, etc. A key feature of metroidvanias is unlocking a new ability/upgrade and then backtracking to be able to move past an obstacle that you couldn't before to unlock a new part of the map.

Yeah, I'm including functionally equivalent things like charms in hollow knight or other non essential upgrades that have to share limited slots. Making the choice to set your character up to lob giant fireballs or swing a sword better or be more of a tank is part of the experience. Megaman, for example, doesn't have this. You always have all your upgrades at the same time (Barring after the series went to shit... or Legends which was pretty good.)

Good games are about making interesting choices. Metroidvanias are a winning formula because they offer you 3 constantly: Which path do I explore? How do I spend my coins? What set of loot/abilities should I equip right now? I'd actually had my hopes up for Diablo 4 for a bit since it's open world formula should offer those 3 choices as well, but they utterly shat the bed on all 3 aspects.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

Vic, you’re fucking retarded. You’re so wrong that it’s hilariously that you’re being such a fucking cunt about what you’re saying.

There are no Metroidvania Metroid games. The name Metroidvania was something someone came up with to describe a subset of Castlevania games that the series became following the release of Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. The term was created to talk about games like Symphony of the Night, Circle of the Moon, Harmony of Dissonance, and Dawn of Sorrow. Those Castlevania games had the adventure game formula added to them, (which is why Metroid is in the name) but they also had an RPG element that was essential to what that specific style of Castlevania was. The Metroid games are just normal adventure games, they’re a side scrolling platformer version of an adventure game, but they’re still normal adventure games none the less. If the name just meant normal adventure games, there wouldn’t have been any reason to create a genre distinction. Despite what the name is, Metroid games aren’t Metroidvania; I guess you could call that a funny little quirk of the genres name. It also seems to be something that confuses people, so a lot of shit that isn’t actually a Metroidvania, and just a normal adventure game, gets called a Metroidvania. It’s so stupid now that you can find people saying things online like: Resident Evil is a Metroidvania. No, Resident Evil is just an adventure game, just like Metroid is an adventure game.

Metroidvania just means: Games that are like Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. If you remove the RPG element you aren’t like Symphony of the Night anymore, you’ve just got a normal adventure game then. Or maybe you don’t even have an adventure game, maybe you just have some side scrolling platformer with interconnected locations.

 

[Vic]

Despite what the name is, Metroid games aren’t Metroidvania; I guess you could call that a funny little quirk of the genres name

No, you're just delusional and wrong. What you are saying is so silly that it's hard to believe you're not trolling. It's in the name for god's sake.

If you remove the RPG element you aren’t like Symphony of the Night anymore, you’ve just got a normal adventure game then.

See, your problem is that you haven't even played Metroid games. The thing that defines metroidvanias more than anything is what I described in my last post. Collecting upgrades and backtracking to obstacles/doors/whatever to reach new parts of the map. That's what's fun about the genre and it's present in Metroid and the metroidvania Castlevanias.

 

[ferratilis]

There was only one Metroid game for the NES. It has been re-released as Zero Mission for the GBA later on. Not only was it the first Metroid game, but it was also the first metroidvania.

Diagnosis: full retard.

Why don't you go back to sucking on Todd Howard's nutsack and shilling Starfield? Stick to what you know well.

 

[Vic]

Stick to what you know well.

Tell me again how many Metroid games there were on the NES.

 

[Damned Registrations]

It's in the name for god's sake.

This is like arguing Wizardry is an Action rpg because it's definitely an rpg and that's part of the name of the genre. The whole point of coining the phrase Metroidvania was the fact that the games including elements that were drawn from both series separately. Otherwise we'd just be calling them Metroid-likes.

 

[Vic]

It's in the name for god's sake.

This is like arguing Wizardry is an Action rpg because it's definitely an rpg and that's part of the name of the genre. The whole point of coining the phrase Metroidvania was the fact that the games including elements that were drawn from both series separately. Otherwise we'd just be calling them Metroid-likes.

How is Super Metroid not a metroidvania? That's a rhetorical question by the way.

 

[Damned Registrations]

How is Super Metroid not a metroidvania?

It has none of the rpg mechanics that come from the 'vania half of the category.

Honestly, Zelda games fit the category better than Metroid does.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

Despite what the name is, Metroid games aren’t Metroidvania; I guess you could call that a funny little quirk of the genres name

No, you're just delusional and wrong. What you are saying is so silly that it's hard to believe you're not trolling. It's in the name for god's sake.

The term was invented to specifically talk about a subset of Castlevania games. It comes from Castlevania players, and it was created to talk about the Castlevania games that were like Symphony of the Night. Metroid is in the name because those Castlevania games like Symphony of the Night had environments like the adventure game Metroid...and also because it sounds cool. But, interconnected adventure game environments isn’t the only thing Symphony of the Night was doing. If you don’t have the RPG elements you aren’t like Symphony of the Night, and if you aren’t like Symphony of the Night you aren’t a Metroidvania.

Despite the name, the Metroid games are not Metroidvania games, they’re just platformer adventure games.

This isn’t hard to grasp. It’s actually so easy to get I’m gonna just assume you’re trolling and not actually this stupid. If what Metroidvania is had been given a name under modern video game genre naming conventions it probably would’ve been called something boring like a Nightlike, or a Sotnlike.

If you remove the RPG element you aren’t like Symphony of the Night anymore, you’ve just got a normal adventure game then.

See, your problem is that you haven't even played Metroid games. The thing that defines metroidvanias more than anything is what I described in my last post. Collecting upgrades and backtracking to obstacles/doors/whatever to reach new parts of the map. That's what's fun about the genre and it's present in Metroid and the metroidvania Castlevanias.

Yeah, Metroid is a fucking adventure game. You get new items which allow you to explore new areas. It’s normal adventure game stuff. Zelda works the same way.

I’ve play a handful of Metroid games. The original two, and then the first two Prime games.

 

[Vic]

Yeah, Metroid is a fucking adventure game. You get new items which allow you to explore new areas. It’s normal adventure game stuff. Zelda works the same way.

Are you just repeating yourself? Do you have a source on what you're saying? I cited you wikipedia which is not the best source but it's still better than "trust me bro".

I mean, just googling "is metroid a metroidvania?" will have the whole internet prove you wrong, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Are you saying everybody is wrong who doesn't believe in your niche idea that "The term was invented to specifically talk about a subset of Castlevania games" and "It comes from Castlevania players"?

In any case, I enjoy metroidvanias and the Metroid games definitely scratch that itch.

Zelda works the same way.

Zelda games have similarities to metroidvanias and soulslikes, yes. There was a game called TUNIC recently that combined both genres nicely into a "souls-like metroidvania". Or at least the early and midgame, towards the end it turned into a hardcore puzzler which really felt like a bait & switch on the developer's part.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

Yeah, Metroid is a fucking adventure game. You get new items which allow you to explore new areas. It’s normal adventure game stuff. Zelda works the same way.

Are you just repeating yourself? Do you have a source on what you're saying? I cited you wikipedia which is not the best source but it's still better than "trust me bro".

I mean, just googling "is metroid a metroidvania?" will have the whole internet prove you wrong, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Are you saying everybody is wrong who doesn't believe in your niche idea that "The term was invented to specifically talk about a subset of Castlevania games" and "It comes from Castlevania players"?

In any case, I enjoy metroidvanias and the Metroid games definitely scratch that itch.

Zelda works the same way.

Zelda games have similarities to metroidvanias and soulslikes, yes. There was a game called TUNIC recently that combined both genres nicely into a "souls-like metroidvania". Or at least the early and midgame, towards the end it turned into a hardcore puzzler which really felt like a bait & switch on the developer's part.

If you Google "is metroid a metroidvania?" you’ll see people (who are wrong) saying yes and people (who are right) saying no.



So in that video, it mentions that some sources say that Jeremy Parish came up with the term. But Parish says he got the term from Scott Sharkey, who was using the term to describe the GBA Castlevania games. Now, like I was saying before, those GBA Castlevania games are Castlevania games made in the style of Symphony of the Night.

The guy that created the term showed up on NeoGAF (someone there found an old post of his from 2001) and said he came up with the term to describe the new direct the Castlevania series was going...that direction being Symphony of the Night. The whole point of the term was to talk about the Castlevania games that were like Symphony of the Night. To be like Symphony of the Night you need the RPG elements, otherwise you’ve just got an adventure game.

---

I just looked at the Wikipedia article for Metroidvania, and I have to wonder if you actually read the thing. This is actually a quote from that article:

With Symphony of the Night, Igarashi introduced new concepts into the Castlevania series from Zelda such as a large open world to explore and the need to acquire key items to enter certain areas, elements already present in non-linear platformers like Super Metroid.

However, Symphony of the Night distinguished itself from prior non-linear platformers via the incorporation of console role-playing game elements with the means for the player to improve their character's attributes through an experience system.

Funnily, stupidly, right after establishing what sets Symphony of the Night (and so to the Metroidvania) apart, the article goes on to say:

With the releases of Super Metroid and Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, the formula these games presented would form the foundations of what are considered Metroidvanias today.

That wiki page also mentioned the thing about Scott Sharkey using it to describe the games in the Castlevania series on the GBA that were like Symphony of the Night.

You know how there’s lots of people that use the term Roguelike wrong? Well, Metroidvania gets used wrong even more than Roguelike, probably because people see the name and think it means “games like Metroid and Castlevania“ as opposed to “those Castlevania games like Symphony of the Night that have this Metroid like element in them.” And you know, if those post Symphony of the Night Castlevania games the term was created to describe were just platform-adventure games like Metroid, and didn’t have the RPG elements, you and everyone who thinks Metroid is a Metroidvania would be right. But the Metroidvania Castlevania games all had the RPG element.

 

[Vic]

I have to wonder if you actually read the thing

It's interesting that that Wikipedia article changed since I made my post. Was that you? That's kind of funny, the old revision I was reading just a few hours ago is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Metroidvania&oldid=1239250077

Its new definition of a metroidvania is now:

Metroidvania is a very specific style of platformer, either 2D or 3D, with a focus on free exploration and unlocking new traversal abilities along the way.

Which is worse than the definition before:

Metroidvania is a sub-genre of action-adventure games and/or platformers focused on guided non-linearity and utility-gated exploration and progression.

But whatever.

Funnily, stupidly, right after establishing what sets Symphony of the Night (and so to the Metroidvania) apart, the article goes on to say:

You're doing some asspullery here. Your quote:

However, Symphony of the Night distinguished itself from prior non-linear platformers via the incorporation of console role-playing game elements with the means for the player to improve their character's attributes through an experience system.

isn't talking about Metroidvanias in general, it's talking about SotN specifically. It's you who then jumped to conclusions that that must also (for some reason) describe Metroidvanias in general. That's not the case in my opinion.

Well, Metroidvania gets used wrong even more than Roguelike, probably because people see the name and think it means “games like Metroid and Castlevania“ as opposed to “those Castlevania games like Symphony of the Night that have this Metroid like element in them.” And you know, if those post Symphony of the Night Castlevania games the term was created to describe were just platform-adventure games like Metroid, and didn’t have the RPG elements, you and everyone who thinks Metroid is a Metroidvania would be right.

So which one is it? You are contradicting yourself. Is Metroid just a platform-adventure game? Or is it a Metroidvania without RPG elements? I think it's both, actually. Both Metroid and SotN are platform-adventure games. But they also feature non-linear, utility-gated exploration. This to me is the hallmark feature of a Metroidvania and what I love about the genre. If Metroid didn't have this, it would indeed just be a platform-adventure game. SotN adds to the formula with RPG elements, but they are not required to have a good Metroidvania imo. And the term itself exists to distinguish games with that kind of gameplay, which, honestly you'd have to be quite dense not to see, is very similar between Metroid and SotN, hence the name.

But considering that Metroidvanias are a sub-genre of action-adventure games or platformers, you're not wrong, just being quite dense in trying to narrow it down into a certain point of view.

At the end of the day genre descriptors exist to differentiate between different kinds of gameplay. Is Metroid a platformer? Sure. An action-adventure game? Yep. But what differentiates both Metroid and SotN from regular platformers or action-adventure games is the non-linear, utility-gated exploration that often requires backtracking.

The original Metroid was influenced by two other major Nintendo franchises: Mario, from which it borrowed extensive areas of platform jumping, and The Legend of Zelda, from which it borrowed non-linear exploration. Metroid differed in its atmosphere of solitude and foreboding. Metroid was also one of the first video games to feature an exploration to the left as well as the right, and backtracking to already explored areas to search for secret items and paths. Since the late 1990s, the term "Metroidvania" has been applied to this format.

 

[Vic]

Also note that neither description of a Metroidvania talks about needing to have experience points/RPG elements.