Incline Disco Elysium - The Final Cut - a hardboiled cop show isometric RPG

[Thac0]

The ex soldier where Prime Junta has his profile pic from is a cool guy aswell.

LOL How did you miss that Rene is a fascist/royalist?

Interesting, didnt talk too much to him since I threw his ball in the water. Most I knew about him where the

Spoiler

post mortem conversations with his friend and the nazbol on the island

realised there I should have probably paid a bit more attention to him.
If he actually holds fascist ideology and represents it well it renders a big point of me moot, since all "alignments" have one dude incorporating their virtues then.

 

[AwesomeButton]

LOL How did you miss that Rene is a fascist/"royalist"?

Reminded me of my grandpa. A good person, though he has his myths he lives with.

 

[overly excitable young man]

Reminded me of my grandpa as well. LOL

 

[Harthwain]

All communists in this game are exculpated for some reason.

Titus is not a communist. He isn't really ideology-oriented. He is just a gang leader who's "protecting" his hood. He sticks with Evrart, because Evrart is powerful in the district and promises to make life better. Nothing less and nothing more.

Evrart is a mob boss and politician rolled into one.

Spoiler

He is also responsible for assassination of the previous head of the union

and at some point it should be clear that Evrart uses socialist slogans to his benefit first and foremost (like

Spoiler

not following on his promise to the Deserter, after he killed the former union boss

, so he could raise to power. So, yeah, even if you pin him under communism (because of socialism), he is still not exactly a shinning example of a human being.

The Last

Spoiler

Communist is a political officer who fought for his ideology for the past ~50 years and killed at least two people as part of his "resistance".

Just because he went insane at some point doesn't make him "mostly innocent" or "exculpated". What kind of reasoning is that? If anything, I'd argue that he represents real communism and is an argument that communists are retarded (as is the player, when he pick up the communist ideology).

Every fascist in the game is a piece of shit that the game would be better off without. Although I can imagine writing a likeable and sensible fascist isnt the easiest task, they tend to be pretty selfish. I can see why the game would trigger a fascist, which it did judging by the reactions on the codex here. Or maybe fascists just coincode heavily with the people that think a combatless rpg is an affront to tradition.

Rene is a royalist/conservative and one of the few somewhat decent people in the game.

 

[Thac0]

, so he could raise to power. So, yeah, even if you pin him under communism (because of socialism), he is still not exactly a shinning example of a human being.

Evrart is not a paragon of virtue, but compared to other negative examples of ideologies in the game (Measurehead, The Cryptofascist, The Lorrydriver, The High-Net-Worth-Individual) he isnt completely painted in one colour. He has redeeming qualities, his love for the working class is genuine and he sees the population as under his wing. He is on the same level as other mostly mixed characters. (The Sunday Friend for moralism, Siileng or The Gardener).

The Last

Spoiler

The Deserter was a soldier in a war. He devloped major PTSD and went into the underground for years. There his mind eroded due to the neurotoxins of the Phasmid. He developed this strange blend of ideologies he hates and communism. If he is a negative statement on anything its on Nazbols, not on communism.

It is very questionable wether the last would be guilty for the murders under any legal system. He would probably be exculpated and sent into an asylum for security custody.

Rene is a royalist/conservative and one of the few somewhat decent people in the game.

You are right, I didnt talk too much to him and thought he was a communist soldier by the way the Deserter talked about him and missed him. I guess that was an alude to horseshoe extremism.
This alleviates one of my major arguemts, since each alignment now has a "paragon" of a character that is mostly good. Communism has Titus (or Cindy of you think Titus is neutral), Liberalism has Joyce, Facism has Rene, Moralism has Kim.

I still think overall the game has a pro left wing bias, but it isnt a huge deal, since almost all works of art have a bias in the way of the author. As long as you dont pull a Terry Goodkind and go on sites of rambling tirades on why Communism is the evil of humanity and slaughtering pacifists is okay when they tolerate Communism all is fine.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

his love for the working class is genuine

you never saw any politician in your life, do you?

 

[Thac0]

his love for the working class is genuine

you never saw any politician in your life, do you?

Its not an interpretation of his actions man, its literally what your empathy and drama stats tell you. Yes they are occassionally inaccurate but when two stats tell you the same thing its usually the truth. He thinks he is doing the right thing for the working class (whom he helps trendemously in his ways)

 

[Verylittlefishes]

Its not an interpretation of his actions man, its literally what your empathy and drama stats tell you. Yes they are occassionally inaccurate but when two stats tell you the same thing its usually the truth.

This is actually weird, because I've perceived Evrart's words and actions as manifestation of incredible cynicism which fits him well as a character and makes him one of the most interesting and alive NPCs in the whole game. If this is literally not right...well...could your own stats LIE to you? Kasparov

 

[Thac0]

Its not an interpretation of his actions man, its literally what your empathy and drama stats tell you. Yes they are occassionally inaccurate but when two stats tell you the same thing its usually the truth.

This is actually weird, because I've perceived Evrart's words and actions as manifestation of incredible cynicism which fits him well as a character and makes him one of the most interesting and alive NPCs in the whole game. If this is literally not right...well...could your own stats LIE to you? Kasparov

I especially believed him because I got two Empathy checks on him that told me he holds only the best interests of the people in his mind. Empathy has proven an incredibly reliable stat for me, I cant remember a single other interaction where Empathy has given me plain false info. It would surprise me if Evrard was supposed to have the best pokerface in the entire game and circumvent that. Drama can be a bit more fickle and has told me bullshit from time to time, but it backed up Empathy here.

 

[Harthwain]

Evrart is not a paragon of virtue, but compared to other negative examples of ideologies in the game (Measurehead, The Cryptofascist, The Lorrydriver, The High-Net-Worth-Individual) he isnt completely painted in one colour. He has redeeming qualities, his love for the working class is genuine and he sees the population as under his wing. He is on the same level as other mostly mixed characters. (The Sunday Friend for moralism, Siileng or The Gardener).

While I don't disagree with that, I don't understand why Evrart not being one-dimensional character means communism is somehow reflected better. I find it questionable that he has any real ideology as such. He cares for *his* people, yes, but that's so because he is pretty much a king and Martinaise is his essentially his fief. At the same time he is cynically using socialist rhetoric to back him up and this is as far as his ideological connection with socialism/communism goes. At least that's my understanding of Evrart.

It is very questionable wether the last would be guilty for the murders under any legal system. He would probably be exculpated and sent into an asylum for security custody.

Spoiler

The first murder was a calculated effort to spark the second revolution and the victim herself was totally innocent. He also was not insane at that point.

Besides, how does that make communism be viewed any better?

Communism has Titus (or Cindy of you think Titus is neutral)

Isn't Cindy an anarchist? I would say that The Gardener would fall under communist label.

I still think overall the game has a pro left wing bias, but it isnt a huge deal, since almost all works of art have a bias in the way of the author.

I would say that communism gets a few different tones here and there, while facism doesn't, but overall all major ideologies in the game are pictured as insane. The only exception is moralism, but that's because it's supposed to be a reasonable choice for moderate people (and therefore a boring choice for a boring cop).

 

[JarlFrank]

I can see why the game would trigger a fascist, which it did judging by the reactions on the codex here.

Actually most of my friends in certain communities like the game and the way it handles politics, even though it grossly misrepresents everything. But it does so in a funny way at least. Everyone loves Measurehead, for example, and his representation of a strong-willed straight edge race theorist. Most also thought the loss of morale associated with the fascist thought is realistic, as you constantly lose morale in this shithole of a world where the cause seems to be lost, and it's an uphill battle to stay strong and motivated in the face of it all. It's the ever-looming blackpill which you must reject with your willpower.

 

[Thac0]

Besides, how does that make communism be viewed any better?

My argument is that the communists in the game are on average more reasonable and more benevolently displayed than other ideologies. Heck even the entry text to the communism alignment is more satire of critics of communism than of communism itself. A smart man once calculated 100 billion people died of communism is mocking those who attribute all deaths under the great leap forward to communism as an ideology.
For that argument I dont think the Deserter can be counted as a truly evil communist since he was 1. not responsibly for his actions due to being insane. 2. A Nazbol
Without him communism does not have a blackguard of the ideology, someone who is unquestionably vile in his application of the ideology, like half of the fascists and the high-net-worth-individual (although that guy was fucking hilarious and probably more of an easter egg) Moralism doesnt have a blackguard either, but it kinda fits since that is supposed to be the joke with centrists.

I would say that communism gets a few different tones here and there, while facism doesn't, but overall all major ideologies in the game are pictured as insane. The only exception is moralism, but that's because it's supposed to be a reasonable choice for moderate people (and therefore a boring choice for a boring cop).

Fully agree here, but it is unreasonable to pile on those who say that the game has a pro left leaning touch. They are right, the game portrays left wing extreme ideologies as better than the right wing ones. It doesnt ruin the game and it isnt the point of the game, but its there.

 

[Thac0]

I can see why the game would trigger a fascist, which it did judging by the reactions on the codex here.

Actually most of my friends in certain communities like the game and the way it handles politics, even though it grossly misrepresents everything. But it does so in a funny way at least. Everyone loves Measurehead, for example, and his representation of a strong-willed straight edge race theorist. Most also thought the loss of morale associated with the fascist thought is realistic, as you constantly lose morale in this shithole of a world where the cause seems to be lost, and it's an uphill battle to stay strong and motivated in the face of it all. It's the ever-looming blackpill which you must reject with your willpower.

What the fuck are fascists even

 

[JarlFrank]

I can see why the game would trigger a fascist, which it did judging by the reactions on the codex here.

Actually most of my friends in certain communities like the game and the way it handles politics, even though it grossly misrepresents everything. But it does so in a funny way at least. Everyone loves Measurehead, for example, and his representation of a strong-willed straight edge race theorist. Most also thought the loss of morale associated with the fascist thought is realistic, as you constantly lose morale in this shithole of a world where the cause seems to be lost, and it's an uphill battle to stay strong and motivated in the face of it all. It's the ever-looming blackpill which you must reject with your willpower.

What the fuck are fascists even

Cosmic warriors of TRUTH on a quest to find the Grail and return to Hyperborea.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

I can see why the game would trigger a fascist, which it did judging by the reactions on the codex here.

Actually most of my friends in certain communities like the game and the way it handles politics, even though it grossly misrepresents everything. But it does so in a funny way at least. Everyone loves Measurehead, for example, and his representation of a strong-willed straight edge race theorist. Most also thought the loss of morale associated with the fascist thought is realistic, as you constantly lose morale in this shithole of a world where the cause seems to be lost, and it's an uphill battle to stay strong and motivated in the face of it all. It's the ever-looming blackpill which you must reject with your willpower.

What the fuck are fascists even

Cosmic warriors of TRUTH on a quest to find the Grail and return to Hyperborea.

Actual photo of one:

 

[Harthwain]

For that argument I dont think the Deserter can be counted as a truly evil communist since he was 1. not responsibly for his actions due to being insane. 2. A Nazbol

Why do you think he was nazbol and not communist?

Without him communism does not have a blackguard of the ideology, someone who is unquestionably vile in his application of the ideology, like half of the fascists and the high-net-worth-individual (although that guy was fucking hilarious and probably more of an easter egg) Moralism doesnt have a blackguard either, but it kinda fits since that is supposed to be the joke with centrists.

Why do we even need a blackguard of the ideology to see that communism in the game is no better than real-life communism was? Joyce said how citizens of Revachol were forced to either fight for the communists or be killed by the communists. There is a scene with the firing squad after you pass Visual Calculus check, where communists executed people. There is Kras Mazov.

Fully agree here, but it is unreasonable to pile on those who say that the game has a pro left leaning touch. They are right, the game portrays left wing extreme ideologies as better than the right wing ones. It doesnt ruin the game and it isnt the point of the game, but its there.

I don't agree that "the game portrays left wing extreme ideologies as better than the right wing ones". Just because there is more depth here and there for some characters and player's reactions it doesn't mean that ideologies themselves are portrayed as better, especially communism. Quite the opposite. Communism is straight up portrayed as crime against humanity. Multiple times. It's hard to miss that. Fascism is racist, mysoginist and stupid, at best. But it is not genocidal. Neither are encouraging, but I would say that communism is much more criminal.

And there is a difference between saying "the game portrays left with more nuance than the right" and saying "the game is lefist/communist/feminist propaganda". Most people who have problem with how right was depicted somehow fall in the second category.

 

[RNGsus]

I can see why the game would trigger a fascist, which it did judging by the reactions on the codex here.

Actually most of my friends in certain communities like the game and the way it handles politics, even though it grossly misrepresents everything. But it does so in a funny way at least. Everyone loves Measurehead, for example, and his representation of a strong-willed straight edge race theorist. Most also thought the loss of morale associated with the fascist thought is realistic, as you constantly lose morale in this shithole of a world where the cause seems to be lost, and it's an uphill battle to stay strong and motivated in the face of it all. It's the ever-looming blackpill which you must reject with your willpower.

What the fuck are fascists even

According to the Encyclopedia Britannica 15th ed, a fascist is a hybrid nationalist syndicalist bad guy with a romantic streak. You can't see this post because you are a bitch of many colors.

 

[Stavrophore]

Spoiler

Just because he went insane at some point doesn't make him "mostly innocent" or "exculpated". What kind of reasoning is that? If anything, I'd argue that he represents real communism and is an argument that communists are retarded (as is the player, when he pick up the communist ideology).

Spoiler

Actually the finale guy is inconsistent in his ideology, and his ramblings and philosophy might be influenced by plasmid. In one dialogue he says something about being a "race traitor", he trashed prostitution, used words like degeneracy. Some kind of mix of fascism with communism, nazbol or tankie. As always and typical for communist apologists -"it was no real communism"...

IMHO game would be more enjoyable if it stayed more mature without the overpowering humour, if the main plot axis would be interfighting between factions of Wild Pines and union, and your murder case would be just a background to these power struggles, sprinkled with some humour[and your unconventional attire] as a contrast to the bleak reality. Add tough moral decisions and some nice philosophical theme behind the struggles and you get yourself ace game. Sadly the game intefighting weren't the main focus and joyce-evrart-unionist-mercenary scheming was nonexistent, the tribunal appearing out of nowhere after a long hiatus, was anticlimatic.The murder case became unfocused and more and more whacky as the game progressed, overall whackiness surged after the second part of the city opened, game doubled down on its poor humour, any frictions between factions went out of the window. Maybe its just me, i don't like too much whack, or forced humour which edges on cringe levels. Thus its an adventure game that is overall enjoyable, but it won't stay in your memory and it won't leave you with any internal moral struggles about your decisions after the end. Some games influence your real persona, leave you thinking about the implications, this one is not the one. It's also slightly too long, as it dragged out and at 2/3 of game i was little impatient to end this. I guess a good point and click adventure game should be at most 20h long, anything more and you have too much filler and lose focus, unless you can devise a plot points that can sustain the story and player interest.

 

[Thac0]

Actually he even goes further than that. Talks about how fascists had the right idea about women and rock music, that it is an erosion of culture and that Rechavol would be better off under the nazis or some bull like that. He is definitly a cariacture of Nazbols.

Why do we even need a blackguard of the ideology to see that communism in the game is no better than real-life communism was? Joyce said how citizens of Revachol were forced to either fight for the communists or be killed by the communists. There is a scene with the firing squad after you pass Visual Calculus check, where communists executed people. There is Kras Mazov.

Why this game needs a blackguard for every ideology except centrism for the joke? Because characters are the most important part of storytelling. Fictional historical events have a lot less of an impact than fictional persons.
Also this game treats the poltical ideologies a bit like alignments or guilds. When you play certain old rpgs you end up in games where chaotic is conflated with evil and lawfull with good (the Japanese do it to this day). In those games every chaotic character is evil and serves the demon, while there are no evil characters that still believe in the law. With this you make a philosophical statement about the nature of law and chaos.

Now the point here is Disco Elysium doesnt seem like it really wants to make a statement about the nature of facism, communism, liberalism and centrism. It merely wants to offer them as a means of player expression and a fresh twist on Chaotic, Lawfull, Good, Evil.

It's also slightly too long, as it dragged out and at 2/3 of game i was little impatient to end this.

Nah, I was happy that my rpg/adventure hybrids didnt end after 10 hours. That genre is usually too short to say anything meaningfull. In fact I even wished it was longer, Ruby was absolutely underdeveloped.

And there is a difference between saying "the game portrays left with more nuance than the right" and saying "the game is lefist/communist/feminist propaganda". Most people who have problem with how right was depicted somehow fall in the second category.

Yes and those people are as usual an absolute joke. But that doesnt change the valid criticism that the political compass was somewhat imbalanced and had a bias towards the left.
I feel like Disco should either man up for the sequel and go with an actually political story and make real left wing propaganda for the troll value or try to represent the alignments a bit more balanced.

 

[Stavrophore]

I wouldnt have problem with games openly pandering to the left, BUT WE HAVE TOO MANY OF THEM ALREADY!. Im not talking about full fascist game, because that wouldnt sell, but something that at least would depict nationalism/fascism/jingoism in at least some truthful/"nuanced" way. I don't mind biased games, when they are open about it, and the plot revolves around it. If there was a game about political comissar in a soviet state i wouldn't mind play as genuine communist. Hell i have respect for people who stick to their ideology, whether its communism, fascism, royalism, libertarianism, feminism etc. while under pressure, unless the facts are overwhelmingly against your ideology then i understand that a person can change a stance. RPG games means ROLEPLAY so i dont mind, and can comfortably play as a character of different ideologies. BUT the game has to provide a good setting and context for that. If a game isn't open about its ideology, it shouldn't at least punish playing in a certain, different way.

The least nuanced character is the measurehead, the game doesn't even try to explain what racialism is, they just went full retard spewing most inane bullshit.

And the Pale thing was not explained too well. At what distance it appear between landmasses or from the shore? Why there's water between the archipelago and not Pale all the way? Is the landmass in some kind of "bubble" among this pale thing? It wasn't explained too well ingame.

 

[Xamenos]

Spoiler

Actually the finale guy is inconsistent in his ideology, and his ramblings and philosophy might be influenced by plasmid. In one dialogue he says something about being a "race traitor", he trashed prostitution, used words like degeneracy. Some kind of mix of fascism with communism, nazbol or tankie. As always and typical for communist apologists -"it was no real communism"...

Every tankie I've ever known has espoused that exact mix of conservative views on modern society and the degeneracy promoted by the modern liberal capital in order to erode the workers' will to unite and seize the means of production. Different countries to be sure, but I wouldn't expect the Polish tankies to be too different..

But that doesnt change the valid criticism that the political compass was somewhat imbalanced and had a bias towards the left.

Your original examples for this imbalance were the leader of the Hardie boys who is not exactly a Communist and never claims to be a believer, Evrart who is the very definition a corrupt, slimy, fuck, and the ex-soldier who is actually a fascist. Now the first two might be debateable, there's room of discussion here. But the third turned out an example of the opposite you claimed to be true. Shouldn't your belief that the game is biased towards the left be adjusted by this?
(Incidentally, he also reminded me of my grandpa. I bet the writer based him on his grandfather or someone he liked from that generation. That's the difference between a good writer who has real experiences and writes stories inspired by them, and what passes as writing in most western media).

And the Pale thing was not explained too well. At what distance it appear between landmasses or from the shore? Why there's water between the archipelago and not Pale all the way? Is the landmass in some kind of "bubble" among this pale thing? It wasn't explained too well ingame.

Not giving numbers to satisfy your autism doesn't mean it wasn't explained. Quantifying everything is the bane of fantasy and proper worldbuilding.

 

[Thac0]

And the Pale thing was not explained too well. At what distance it appear between landmasses or from the shore? Why there's water between the archipelago and not Pale all the way? Is the landmass in some kind of "bubble" among this pale thing? It wasn't explained too well ingame.

Actually it was if you passed the conceptualisation check with Joyce. 5000 Kilometers.

Spoiler

Because humans can eradicate the Pale and return it to water through prayer (like described in the Toucan miracle thing.) Yes it is in a bubble. The Pale is the residue of human thoughts. Its like you exhale CO2 after inhaling Oxygen humans take reality, and transform it into ideas through thinking. The Pale is the absence of the raw material for thought. Its pretty high concept but pretty cool imo. Humans can keep it away by concentrated power of will, like the first sailors did with their mantras that charted the islands, like Joyce does on her little sailboat, and like the Icetent kids will do with their hardcore anodyc dance club in the church. Thats what the whole life into death and after death life again shtick is. As long as humans think in the current day they do they will cause a mass extinction event when the raw material for thought runs out. The last remnants of humanity on the isles will find a new way of thought to reverse the process and turn the Pale into matter again.

To simplify it, the material world is like Oxygen for thought. By thinking humans breathe it in and turn it into the Pale. Trees that make Pale into matter again dont really exist yet, only the first algae in the form of mental exercise

 

[AwesomeButton]

This is actually weird, because I've perceived Evrart's words and actions as manifestation of incredible cynicism which fits him well as a character and makes him one of the most interesting and alive NPCs in the whole game. If this is literally not right...well...could your own stats LIE to you? Kasparov

Many stats lie to you all the time. It's mentioned even in the Developer Diaries for the game - if you raise a stat very high, chances are that this part of your personality will take over too often and this won't lead to the best judgement, especially if other stats are silent. Of course none of this is systemic, everything is tailor made, so the writers may have also emphasized some skills more than others... you never know

It's a great game.

 

[Thac0]

This is actually weird, because I've perceived Evrart's words and actions as manifestation of incredible cynicism which fits him well as a character and makes him one of the most interesting and alive NPCs in the whole game. If this is literally not right...well...could your own stats LIE to you? Kasparov

Many stats lie to you all the time. It's mentioned even in the Developer Diaries for the game - if you raise a stat very high, chances are that this part of your personality will take over too often and this won't lead to the best judgement, especially if other stats are silent. Of course none of this is systemic, everything is tailor made, so the writers may have also emphasized some skills more than others... you never know

It's a great game.

It leads to a hilarious dialogue with the big Innocence later.

Spoiler

Your suggestion if high enough wants you to kiss Dora with a very easy check. If you succeed that check you kiss her, but she doesnt kiss you back. Your suggestion then demands to be put on a firing row and develops depression. For the little rest of the game it is completely broken and only gives widely wrong answers, and whines that you know it is useless and always has been useless and tells you not to listen to it. They gave stats character development lol

 

[Tigranes]

To add to everything the others have said - listen, this whole argument hinges on saying that Evrart is a personification of communism because he is a union leader, and in this role, he portrays communism in a benevolent light because he is a manipulative weasly controlling fuck but he, uh, gets things done? Wherein one of the big things he gets done by using you is, well, set up a nice redevelopment of a big new apartment block on the lands of the poor forced out through contractual pressure? Not to mention originally citing Rene as an example of 'communism being treated well'. It's not even just that Rene is literally a fascist/royalist, it's also that he wouldn't be a particularly generous depiction of communism even if he was communist.

And yes, as AwesomeButton just said, high stats can mean a hyperactive stat that makes you see the world through its own, very partial eyes. It's one of the triumphs of Disco's design because this is where you understand that it's not just "Ideology" in brand packaging that can lead a man into seeing what he wants to see and end up becoming the monster that he sees everywhere - it is also your own worship of aspects of your own body and mind that can do so. Which, ironically, seems to be exactly what happens to some players who insist on seeing communist propaganda wherever they turn, or fascist sympathies wherever they turn.

Maybe the game's depiction of different ideologies may not be "balanced". What does that even mean? Were they supposed to Sawyerise and make every variant of every ideology appear just as sympathetic to everyone (by everyone's different sense of sympathetic)? Obviously not. Thac0 has it right on one point: "Now the point here is Disco Elysium doesnt seem like it really wants to make a statement about the nature of facism, communism, liberalism and centrism. It merely wants to offer them as a means of player expression". And that's exactly what it should be.