Arkane Dishonored 2 - Emily and Corvo's Serkonan Vacation

[CthuluIsSpy]

Its pretty bad, especially when it comes to file sizes. Games are a lot larger these days, especially western ones.
Doom Eternal is like 80 gigabytes, and I'm like why?

Because 4K, that is it. All games these days need to have 4k textures and there is just no way to really compress them without making the whole 4K aspect of them wholly irrelevant. The little detail only a handful of GPUs on the market even have enough VRAM to load said textures is not really a concern since they are all banking on each new GPU generation doubling in power and memory. The little detail of that failing to happen for 3 full fucking generations of GPUs is obviously of no concern to this master plan.

Add on top of it super high bitrate uncompressed audio and of course multiple language mutations on top of that and 80GB is actually a fairly well optimized package.

That's stupid. Fuck the game industry.

 

[Ravielsk]

That's stupid. Fuck the game industry.

AAA industry. For some reason they exclusively suffer from this inability of separating optional files and texture packs from the main game. Even AA studios like Spiders or Cradle have absolutely no problem keeping their games under 20gb despite having plenty of reason to go above that.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Yeah, sorry, I did mean the AAA industry. They do seem to be the main offenders.
Indie Titles tend to be much more reasonably sized. Hellpoint is only 10 gigabytes and even Phoenix Point is less than 40, which compared to XCOM 2's 75(!) gig size is much more reasonable.

 

[Ezekiel]

Some indie devs deserve to be called out for compressing too much, though. Played this side-scrolling Metroid-like art game that I can't remember the name of right now. Came out within the last three years. The cutscenes that were supposed to blend into the gameplay (Same 2D perspective.) were a nightmare of giant macroblocks and washed out colors, what you'd see in a crappy RMVB fansub from fifteen years ago.

 

[LarryTyphoid]

The only way I can get any enjoyment out of this game is to try and get a Ghost ranking on every level. If you go at this game without any self-imposed challenges then you're going to be bored to tears. Same thing with Dishonored 1.

 

[markec]

The only way I can get any enjoyment out of this game is to try and get a Ghost ranking on every level. If you go at this game without any self-imposed challenges then you're going to be bored to tears. Same thing with Dishonored 1.

Yeah, i finished both games full ghost without using any abilities including blink on highest difficulty and still i can count on fingers of my hand how many challenging moments were in both games.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

If you’re looking for challenge in these games you are missing the point, and I also really don’t get why you are looking for challenge here. For all its glories, it’s not as though Thief was a remotely difficult game either.

 

[Butter]

The genius of Thief is that you get fucked if you're caught. The tension of sitting in shadows as a guard walks by, not knowing if he's going to detect you, is unparalleled in any other game. Dishonored never captures that tension because you can trivially murder everyone if you get seen. That tension is 10x more important than difficulty.

 

[LarryTyphoid]

For all its glories, it’s not as though Thief was a remotely difficult game either.

That tension is 10x more important than difficulty.

Even then, the stealth part is really only like half of Thief's gameplay. You have to explore and actually find your objective in the massive levels with your limited moveset. That's a challenge in and of itself, and navigating Thief's levels is not easy on your first playthrough. In Dishonored, you've got quest markers pointing you to almost every relevant objective or collectible.

 

[Wunderbar]

For all its glories, it’s not as though Thief was a remotely difficult game either.

That tension is 10x more important than difficulty.

Even then, the stealth part is really only like half of Thief's gameplay. You have to explore and actually find your objective in the massive levels with your limited moveset. That's a challenge in and of itself, and navigating Thief's levels is not easy on your first playthrough. In Dishonored, you've got quest markers pointing you to almost every relevant objective or collectible.

to be fair, Dishonored's quest markers can be turned off. You can play without them, since the game gives you plenty of other hints on how to find your target.

 

[LarryTyphoid]

to be fair, Dishonored's quest markers can be turned off. You can play without them, since the game gives you plenty of other hints on how to find your target.

Yeah, people say that, and maybe it's true most of the time, but there are definitely objectives in both games that were designed around you having quest markers and so give you little clue as to where to go. The DH1 DLC campaigns were especially bad about this. Off the top of my head, you've got the favors to show you the safe code written on the wall in the first stage of Knife of Dunwall, and the witch you can talk to in the last stage of The Brigmore Witches, but you are not told the locations of either without the objective markers. That's just what I can remember right now, but I definitely had to turn back on the markers multiple times when playing DH1 to find out where to go before I became acquainted with its levels.
And besides, they're turned on by default.

 

[Zombra]

Wait, there are people on Codex who played with fucking quest markers on?

 

[LarryTyphoid]

Arkane lets you turn off quest markers, but they don't let you turn off the vignette that covers half of the fucking screen every time you have the sheer gall to press the crouch button.

 

[spekkio]

^
https://www.nexusmods.com/dishonored2/mods/2

 

[Wunderbar]

Personally I'm not a fan of "make your own difficulty" in modern games. By that I don't mean the self-imposed challenges like when players set out to find 100% of loot, but rather the customizable difficulty options at the start of the game.

OK, the quest markers can be disabled, but this feature are turned on by default so most players aren't going to disable it. After all, videogames are about optimization, and finding a path of least resistance and "gaming" the system. If the game gives you options that are so OP you may as well call them cheats, players will use those options even if they may rob themselves of fun in the process.

Stuff like this is really gay.

Spoiler

How can I make a decision on which options to toggle on and which to toggle off when I don't even know how the game is played? How do I know what tier of "AI perception" the levels were designed around?

Just give me the normal pre-defined difficulty settings. Like "newbie / normal player / veteran" or something like that.

 

[Morgoth]

The formalism and check-box design is just baked into modern game development from the get-go, and further reinforced by the advice of vtubers/influencers/game media, that give constant normative feedback. It feels like game designers have long lost control and trust of their own sensibilities. "Does it feel right?" is no longer a consideration being taken seriously in design meetings.

I fear this is only going to get worse with AI-assisted content creation.

 

[Zombra]

Personally I'm not a fan of "make your own difficulty" in modern games. By that I don't mean the self-imposed challenges like when players set out to find 100% of loot, but rather the customizable difficulty options at the start of the game.
OK, the quest markers can be disabled, but this feature are turned on by default so most players aren't going to disable it. After all, videogames are about optimization, and finding a path of least resistance and "gaming" the system. If the game gives you options that are so OP you may as well call them cheats, players will use those options even if they may rob themselves of fun in the process.
Stuff like this is really gay.

Spoiler

How can I make a decision on which options to toggle on and which to toggle off when I don't even know how the game is played? How do I know what tier of "AI perception" the levels were designed around?
Just give me the normal pre-defined difficulty settings. Like "newbie / normal player / veteran" or something like that.

I both agree and disagree. It's definitely good for a game to have a solid vision and I support the concept of the "intended experience". At the same time, when a game puts in trash mechanics to pander to the almighty dollar, it's great when they include options that allow more prestigious players to turn off babby mode. It's sad when the best version of a game has to be MacGyvered with external mods. I honestly feel like the intended experience for Dishonored was much less handholdy than the quest arrow indicates, and the arrow was shoehorned in for trailer park console kids. No offense intended if you used it. Personally I am not interested in the mindless behavior of "most players". For all the money they spend, they are not who I'm talking about when I talk about good game design.

After all, videogames are about optimization, and finding a path of least resistance and "gaming" the system. If the game gives you options that are so OP you may as well call them cheats, players will use those options even if they may rob themselves of fun in the process.

You're making really huge assumptions here that are flatly wrong in my opinion. The entire goal of every game is to get it over with as efficiently as possible? If that's really why you play games I urge you to take a look at your life.

 

[Ravielsk]

Personally I'm not a fan of "make your own difficulty" in modern games. By that I don't mean the self-imposed challenges like when players set out to find 100% of loot, but rather the customizable difficulty options at the start of the game.

This is the main reason why I could never finish Hitman Absolution. The game is so blatantly designed around the instinct meter that disabling it also effectively disables costumes as well. Meaning that huge chunks of levels become either about exploiting the AI or force the player into shoot outs. The absolute peak of retardation came when a civilian identified me while in full SWAT gear with a helmet and a balaclava.

But turning it back on just makes it so that I can just walk past everything because somehow tilting my hat slightly down makes it impossible to recognize me. Its a cop out for lazy devs and I have yet to see a singular game where this sort of modular difficulty did anything besides break the game in half.

 

[Silverfish]

Wait, there are people on Codex who played with fucking quest markers on?

Yes, and you'll never stop me.

 

[Zombra]

But turning it back on just makes it so that I can just walk past everything because somehow tilting my hat slightly down makes it impossible to recognize me. Its a cop out for lazy devs and I have yet to see a singular game where this sort of modular difficulty did anything besides break the game in half.

We agree Absolution sucked for a hundred reasons, and the really bad tuning on the "options" was definitely prominent among them ... but did you play the 2016+ HITMAN™ trilogy? It's a perfect example of modular difficulty done right. It defaults to tons of helper UI which you can turn off piece by piece, resulting in a beautifully tuned level of challenge devoid of either tedium or handholding.

 

[Rahdulan]

The formalism and check-box design is just baked into modern game development from the get-go, and further reinforced by the advice of vtubers/influencers/game media, that give constant normative feedback. It feels like game designers have long lost control and trust of their own sensibilities. "Does it feel right?" is no longer a consideration being taken seriously in design meetings.

Arkane's own games make for an interesting study regarding this. For example, I remember back when Dishonored came out some streamers were basically just beelining from objective A to B and completely ignoring levels at large. This total absence of player navigation has simply became a default thing to do with design. After all, why bother when most will just do what the game tells them to do.

 

[Latelistener]

The genius of Thief is that you get fucked if you're caught. The tension of sitting in shadows as a guard walks by, not knowing if he's going to detect you, is unparalleled in any other game. Dishonored never captures that tension because you can trivially murder everyone if you get seen. That tension is 10x more important than difficulty.

Yeah, but why are you comparing Dishonored to Thief? Thief is a stealth game and all efforts from its creators went into that. Dishonored combat systems are much more developed than stealth systems. In the first game you only had the "choke" and sleep darts for stealth and that's it. Its stealth is based on lines of sight and verticality, rather than light and shadows and it doesn't have a complex noise system when walking of various surfaces.

Despite perhaps some small inspirations from Thief in visual and world design, as a game it's clearly much closer to Deus Ex. Stealth is only one approach in those kinds of games and the reason why they can't and shouldn't compete with Thief.

But turning it back on just makes it so that I can just walk past everything because somehow tilting my hat slightly down makes it impossible to recognize me. Its a cop out for lazy devs and I have yet to see a singular game where this sort of modular difficulty did anything besides break the game in half.

We agree Absolution sucked for a hundred reasons, and the really bad tuning on the "options" was definitely prominent among them ... but did you play the 2016+ HITMAN™ trilogy? It's a perfect example of modular difficulty done right. It defaults to tons of helper UI which you can turn off piece by piece, resulting in a beautifully tuned level of challenge devoid of either tedium or handholding.

IMO Absolution has only two real issues: small sometimes even minuscule levels and a really bad story. The fact that Hitman (2016) is actually good, despite that it was made by the same people and largely based on Absolution only shows that Absolution is in fact not a bad game (worth noting that something happened in IO between Blood Money and Absolution and most people who made Blood Money and previous games aren't there anymore). At least not on the level of Splinter Cell Conviction. I never tried disabling UI systems from Hitman (2016) (like opportunity notices) though and I'm kind of curious how it's going to work.

I assume they don't compress with FLAC because it has no copy-protection/encryption. Unfortunate.

Doom uses Wwise, an audio middleware which has several types of compression like Vorbis, OPUS, ADPCM or AAC. In fact, I think audio in Doom Eternal is compressed as it usually always gets the short end of the stick.

 

[LarryTyphoid]

Dishonored combat systems are much more developed than stealth systems.

Yet you can instakill every single enemy by blocking, then counter-attacking like in Assassin's Creed. In Dishonored 2 you can just slide at every enemy to kill them instantly so you don't even have to bother parrying. If you get hit, it doesn't matter because Corvo and Emily can't walk an inch without tripping over a mountain of health potions.

I honestly feel like the intended experience for Dishonored was much less handholdy than the quest arrow indicates, and the arrow was shoehorned in for trailer park console kids.

This is just a bunch of shit. Super Mario 64 and Super Mario Sunshine were designed for toddlers to be able to play them and they don't have any quest markers (and don't act like Dishonored has harder to navigate levels, because it doesn't, and Mario doesn't have magic infinite teleportation in those games either). Any idiot can read a map or follow directions. Quest markers are for the lazy convenience of the developers, not the players. That's why Dishonored constantly gets away with telling you to go somewhere with vague, sometimes completely absent directions, and sometimes not even giving you a map of an area. It's easier for the developer to put a magic pointer on the screen instead of directing the player through natural means. Arkanefags have tricked themselves into believing that the Dishonored games give the player natural directions because they've played both games multiple times and already know where to go in each level.

When I played Dishonored for the first time and turned off objective markers, I had to turn them back on multiple times to find out where to go, especially in the Hound Pits Pub where all those fags tell you to meet them somewhere with no directions whatsoever and no sort of indicator on the map. I rarely ever got lost in the Thief games unless it was an unmapped area like Down in the Bonehoard, and that's because those games actually give you a good map. For a somewhat more apt comparison, there's Deus Ex, which is easy to navigate on account of the player having a compass and most directions being some kind of cardinal direction. Dishonored could have gone the approach of these games, its supposed inspirations, and players wouldn't have had issues, because navigating an area from verbal or written directions is something anybody above the age of 10 years old can do easily. Even a 6 year old playing Minecraft can figure out the concept of a compass and a map. But Instead they copped out with the easy approach every dev of that time was adopting, and we give them the pass because we imagine that it must have been big bad Bethesda forcing poor Arkane to consolize their game to appeal to those stupid "trailer park console kids". Yet those "trailer park console kids" can easily navigate games in which the player character is not an immortal demigod with a magical quest marker leading him to all his goals.

 

[Latelistener]

Yet you can instakill every single enemy by blocking, then counter-attacking like in Assassin's Creed. In Dishonored 2 you can just slide at every enemy to kill them instantly so you don't even have to bother parrying. If you get hit, it doesn't matter because Corvo and Emily can't walk an inch without tripping over a mountain of health potions.

Easy combat is a disappointment, but it's not just that. To create a working immersive sim it's a half of the work to just create systems. The other half is to force players to engage with them. Frankly, that's where many immersive sims fail.

If you've played Dunwall City Trials or watched some High Chaos combat videos, you should know that the combat systems are interesting and developed. You can for example stop time, posses an enemy and then put him before his own bullet that came out of his pistol. The problem is that there little to no reason to use that in the actual game. Players are a part of the problem: not looking for creative solutions and instead using an easy way out, but of course mostly its on developers.

High Chaos combat

Dunwall City Trials - Burglar (Expert) does have a lot of tension for a game that isn't all about stealth, especially if you want to get a max score. You can't use powers and you can't kill anybody. Overall, an awesome level.

Arkanefags have tricked themselves into believing that the Dishonored games give the player natural directions because they've played both games multiple times and already know where to go in each level.

When I played Dishonored for the first time and turned off objective markers, I had to turn them back on multiple times to find out where to go, especially in the Hound Pits Pub where all those fags tell you to meet them somewhere with no directions whatsoever and no sort of indicator on the map.

As to rephrase your own post, this is just a bunch of shit. I've played Dishonored with everything turned off right from the start and still completed it just fine without ever turning UI back on.

And why would you need a map for Pits Pub? it's literally just a pub, a workshop and a tower.

 

[toro]