Divinity Divinity: Original Sin 2 - Definitive Edition

[DeepOcean]

Swen: Exactly. For that reason, we actually make the differential so high, and some people hate it, right? But it’s a conscious choice we put in the game. It has a downside—if you missed something, you might feel like you’re stuck. So that’s something we’re fighting with. But on the whole, I think people who play Original Sin 2, they get challenged, and when they overcome the challenge they feel like, ‘OK, I achieved something, and this was really rewarding. Because now I get rewarded for all the potential frustration I had to overcome to get there.’

It seems he doesn't really get the criticism. They achieved that with the stat bloat and dumbed down mechanics, that's why some people hate it. It makes exploration railroaded and renders the equipment obsolete with every level. The end result is quite similar to level scaling, just less obvious.

This is also why there’s no grind, because each combat is designed as a tactical puzzle you have to solve.

What is funny is that Larian already made this mistake with Divinity 2 with stat bloat extremely dependent of leveling with the railroaded exploration that result from that and they fixed it with the expansion for that game, guess the designers that fucked up now are new hires.

 

[Roguey]

What is funny is that Larian already made this mistake with Divinity 2 with stat bloat extremely dependent of leveling with the railroaded exploration that result from that and they fixed it with the expansion for that game, guess the designers that fucked up now are new hires.

Yeah, I brought this up back in September.

Item 1: Jan Van Dosselaer was promoted to "writing director." Sarah Baylus was promoted to lead writer for D:OS 2 (naturally, since all the other writers they hired are pretty much brand new game writing).

Item 2: Nick Pechenin is the systems guy responsible for bringing the decline. Barring some coding work on D:OS:EE, this is his first game ever.

Item 3: Here are the guys solely responsible for combat and level design
Senior Combat Designer: Edouard Imbert
Combat Designer: Andrey Stoliarov
Level Designers: Jean-François Gagné, Darko Ignjatovic

Fun fact: None of them worked on D:OS, except Edouard, who was a mere scripter on the first. "What happened to the D:OS team?" Well, they either left or were promoted elsewhere. I believe these changes explain a lot.

 

[Cyberarmy]

I need a bigger

 

[Infinitron]

What is funny is that Larian already made this mistake with Divinity 2 with stat bloat extremely dependent of leveling with the railroaded exploration that result from that and they fixed it with the expansion for that game, guess the designers that fucked up now are new hires.

Yeah, I brought this up back in September.

Item 1: Jan Van Dosselaer was promoted to "writing director." Sarah Baylus was promoted to lead writer for D:OS 2 (naturally, since all the other writers they hired are pretty much brand new game writing).

Item 2: Nick Pechenin is the systems guy responsible for bringing the decline. Barring some coding work on D:OS:EE, this is his first game ever.

Item 3: Here are the guys solely responsible for combat and level design
Senior Combat Designer: Edouard Imbert
Combat Designer: Andrey Stoliarov
Level Designers: Jean-François Gagné, Darko Ignjatovic

Fun fact: None of them worked on D:OS, except Edouard, who was a mere scripter on the first. "What happened to the D:OS team?" Well, they either left or were promoted elsewhere. I believe these changes explain a lot.

Even if we had one I doubt he'd reply with "Oh yeah, everyone hated this system but we went with it anyway."

Oh I'm sure that was never the case. The more likely case would be that most people had no strong opinion. By "power trip", I didn't mean that Swen allowed somebody to force a system on people that didn't like it. I just meant that somebody may have just been allowed to go with their gut with no deep analysis.

After reading this interview, and learning that Divinity 2 had similar issues, I increasingly suspect that the person who "went on a power trip" was Swen himself.

I don't think you can entirely blame the new designers. I think what they might be guilty of is executing Swen's vision too faithfully.

 

[FreeKaner]

This game seems to be almost designed for two lone wolves play-through between game actively punishing you for diversifying your damage types and inability to make multi-character combos due round-robin turns. It's better to just go two heavy hitters that can set up their own combos in their own turn.

Once all its expansions or whatever else comes out I might do just that, it will likely be more boring than a proper party in a proper party game (like DOS1 was), but what the hell it might be different enough.

 

[Perkel]

After spending some more time with it. Honestly it is very hard to continue playing it because of really weird mechanical changes that kills the fun from original DOS1 combat system (which was main reason why you wanted to play it)

My main gripe so far is action point system. D:OS1 had perfectly good system in form of AP that could be modified by players stats and perfectly reasonable system of storing your ap to use them when needed. Overall D:OS1 stat system wasn't beautiful but this was one of the things that worked well. Why this is fixed. It doesn't make sense. It limits your build a lot. At least in DOS1 you could make various builds using that system. Slow heavy damage archer ? Sure. Fast mutlu action rogue ? Yes. etc. Here build diversity is very limited to what you use instead of how you use skills. Different strategies like hiding and storing points to get one very powerful turn, defense line vs attacking line. All of those are gone.

Secondly redundant skills. So i increase Strength that increases my damage by 5%, warfare which gives another 5% and your weapon skill that does 5% and some other boost like 5% to accuracy.

Why would i ever choose my weapon skill when i can just add to warfare ? Not only it unlocks more skills but it gives me same damage boost and it is exact same point which could be used on those two skills instead of separate. What if i want to build sword fighter that is focused on dodge ? Nope dodge is on knives mate same with backstab. I am guessing backstabs with two handed hammers sound weird.

Third. Armors/weapons don't make sense from visual perspective. I get scale armor, get it on my elf and there are bunch of leaves ? what ? I guess they wanted for all races to differentiate but this seems like weird choice to make MORE work. If they really wanted they could just add type of armors or sidegrades with different look. I mean i could be hilarious to see dwarf in leaves armor.
So it is just art for sake of art which i am not a fan off.

Fourth. I don't understand why after criticism of DOS1 they didn't make Opportunist default mechanic but every enemy so far i have seen has it. If they didn't want for all party members to have it like wizards you could make it so in many different ways like connecting it to warfare skill.

Fifth. I don't want to reinstall DOS1 but i remember flanking attacks in that game. What happened to that in DOS2 ? Right now it doesn't matter how you are positioned when you attack.

Six. Weird design of some skills trying to mix classes. Ok let us say you want to make battle mage and you look for other skill to complement your warfare skill. Necromancy ? healing as you hit and spells NICE. Polymorphism, additional main stats and spells NICE, Hydromancy ? regeneration of magic armor and spells. NICE.

Pyromancy ? Spells and nothing. What ?
Aerotheurge ? Spells and nothing. What ?

I mean if those spells would be fundamentally more powerful it would make sense but it is not the case. Even if that would be the case i don't see a reason why they shouldn't give you some mild passive boost to differentiate someone who is battlemage specialized in pyromancy. Aerotheurge ? Based on wind elements ? How about more movement per action point. Pyromancy ? How about damage reflection ?

Speaking of damage reflection

Seven. Defense skills.Those were shit in DOS1 too but here it is much the same. Why would i invest a point in defense which gives me very mild boost while i can invest in one more level of pyromancy which will give me huuuge boost ?

Even if you want to actually invest you need to spent multiple level to get anything out of it. Like in case of damage reflection. It takes 6 points to get to 30%. It sound much but only when you get 1hit ko shot on face not when someone does 10 damage on you. To get to reasonable 100% assuming you can do it (because i am yet to play more than 10 hours) you would need to spend almost all your levels on it.

Idea is good. You should make raflect build, stack a lot of armor points, stack constitution for safety, some defensive skills, maybe something like group taunt etc and you have viable build. But not with that defensive skill %

Eight. Still levels mean to much. In fact they went into opposite way what people wanted and now even one level not just 2-3 mean a lot more than before. So on one hand you have absolute power level decided mostly by which level you are and stats that don't matter in face of it. Then logical conclusion is: why care about stats at all when you can just plough via getting more experience. As long as you will be one level higher that challenge then there is no reason to invest in anything and waste time fine tuning your builds. First game level importance system was retarded but this takes it to whole new other level.

Even in D&D 2.5 differences between levels were not that exaggerated and in that system getting to 20level was rare depending on adventure.

Well you could make argument like Swen says that you can just treat it as tackling challenge before you are ready but frankly speaking it is failed argument. Challenge must be fair. In case of DOS you can't beat goblin one higher level than you in reasonable fair fight so you back to village bring some fishes you found on ground somewhere you get your exp to get to next level and suddenly you can fight that goblin with ease despite your stats barely changing. That is not challenge that is artificial challenge for sake of challenge.
This argument never worked for DOS1 nor it will work DOS2. At least in DOS1 this wasn't so lopsided like here.

Nine. Tag system, i thought it would be great change. It does work for some pre constructed characters (as they have their own quest lines) but from what i see the beginning hours choosing any of default tags doesn't really matter outside of alternatives lines of dialog which you can use to comment on things that doesn't really change anything. I mean it is not exact negative but more like addition of feature that doesn't lead anywhere. I guess this is good system from development point of view but i don't see that much player experience out of it.

I think main issue with that is that what you see doesn't give you tangible effect on what you do and instead of you are flooded with a lot of dialog choices which are either way in third person that don't change anything.

It is interesting mechanic to consider but in DOS2 it doesn't really add anything and frankly detracts from roleplaying if you actually choose some of those tags.

Imo much better solution would be temperament instead of origin. Say you get angry, evil, materialistic tag and each of those would just add new lines as an option to say rather than obvious roleplaying option because you play barbarian ROAAHHH!. And each of those tags could modify aspects of quest.

Say like in case of evil tag. You get quest from Griff to return him fruits. In case of current tag system nothing really you can do. In case of angry, evil, sneaky jew whatever you could modify a little outcome of this quest. Evil dude would just poison part of drug so some of the people could die in city, angry dude would just take his lid off that he was used and make a scene where Griff could respond in different matter, while sneaky jew could extort some additional money not just money. etc.


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Like i said at the beggining, it is very hard for me to continue playing it. While DOS had combat system by no means perfect it was fun to use, DOS2 in theory only expands on that but in reality it limits the fun.

DOS2 world is fun and you can see they had much more time expand on it and fix a lot of things but it won't win any awards from what i see.

So instead of DOS1 which had fun combat system and bad to mediacore story with bad to mediacore characters,
you get DOS2 which has mediacore combat with mediacore story with mediacore characters.

Which is precisely why POE1 doesn't work. It is jack of all trades but master of none. Everything seems good from all perspectives but there isn't anything defining that keeps you playing it.

 

[Darth Roxor]

I must say i am positively shocked so far.

- Same good old DOS1 combat system but on steroids with some changes

Honestly it is very hard to continue playing it because of really weird mechanical changes that kills the fun from original DOS1 combat system

 

[Perkel]

I must say i am positively shocked so far.

- Same good old DOS1 combat system but on steroids with some changes

Honestly it is very hard to continue playing it because of really weird mechanical changes that kills the fun from original DOS1 combat system

Talk about expectations shattered.

I mean it takes no rocket scientist to take good elements of your system and make it better.
But it takes really special person to take good elements of your system and brake them.

Frankly speaking i want to ask designers behind combat system if they even played DOS1 more than 5 minutes.

It is like someone put them list of good and bad about their combat system and designers read it backward. What is good is bad and what is bad is good and they went from that point. Which is far more something to be angry about than just mistakes.

 

[Darth Roxor]

but have you noticed what's up with the initiative yet Perkel

 

[RK47]

Drink some bleach

 

[Perkel]

but have you noticed what's up with the initiative yet Perkel

Nope so far i have seen only one stat wits giving you initiative and that is pretty much it. I can't really say much about it but from just system look it looks like characters will be divided by those who have init bonus and those who don't.

If enemies have this stat regulated then basically out side of rogue your character always will start dead last because investing in it is not that worth it. Either way it doesn't matter because even if you start first you can't have build with more AP that can prepare battlefield by virtue of being first to act. So either you have to have all of them or not on initiative train.
At least this is from my surface level look.

Is there something more wrong to it ? Because this is already not that good outlook.

But i never much used initiative meta in games as it depends a lot on how deadly first move is and in case of DOS with hp bloat it isn't that critical.

 

[RK47]

If your party is invisible the enemy waits until you are visible

 

[Perkel]

Definitely Swen needs to find that Hazmat suit he was working in while making DOS1 that allowed him to listen to people what they want.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Is there something more wrong to it ? Because this is already not that good outlook.

I recommend paying close attention to the initiative bar - how it's arranged in every fight and how it changes between turns when things die

 

[Jezal_k23]

After spending some more time with it. Honestly it is very hard to continue playing it

Can't say I'm surprised.

 

[Perkel]

I was about to drop it... but.

Larian is Betsheda now. mods will fix it (or not). Defo will go for DnD scaling. Flat system should do wonders for gameplay.

Reduced Number Bloat

All of these mods reduce vitality scaling. Technically, all these mods do is change the scaling of vitality, and the game automatically calculates the appropriate values for armor and damage from that, so relative balance of vanilla should be maintained. This mod is handy for reducing the need to constantly hunt for gear to re-equip after leveling up, since items should last 2+ levels, depending on the version you select.


There are four versions of this mod:

Moderate Scaling: D:OS EE-like numbers, hopefully achieving vitality in the 1000s by end game (12 +16% vitality per level)

Reduced Number Bloat: Massively reduces numbers, down to about 500 base vitality at level 20 (10 + 10% vitality per level)

DND-like Scaling: Even more massive reduction numbers, granting 4 + 4% vitality per level, leading to around 200 vitality by level 20 (I think).

No Scaling: Vitality increases by virtually nothing on level up. It also virtually eliminates the penalty for equipping high level weapons. It definitely makes for a very different experience, where level difference is mostly a non-factor, which is pretty interesting.

 

[Jezal_k23]

It would be great if there was a mod to fix initiative and the armor system.

I imagine people have no idea how initiative works, but the armor system in particular I don't understand why people had no issues with. What is wrong with it is so obvious, how come nobody complaints about it other than here?

 

[Black]

CUZ IT'S FUN XD

 

[catfood]

It would be great if there was a mod to fix initiative and the armor system.

I imagine people have no idea how initiative works, but the armor system in particular I don't understand why people had no issues with. What is wrong with it is so obvious, how come nobody complaints about it other than here?

I use this armor mod: https://www.nexusmods.com/divinityoriginalsin2/mods/168

Makes status effects previously blocked by Physical and Magic Armour subject to saving throw rolls instead. A target's chance to resist a status effect is equal to the percentage of the corresponding armor type it has remaining.

Initiative is hard-coded so there will never, ever be any fix for it.

 

[Jezal_k23]

Hmmm using that + debloat might make the game acceptable so I can play it.

 

[imweasel]

I imagine people have no idea how initiative works, but the armor system in particular I don't understand why people had no issues with. What is wrong with it is so obvious, how come nobody complaints about it other than here?

People do care and have been complaining about it on Steam and Larian's forums since the alpha. It is just one of those things that is not good at all, but not bad enough so that more players actually despise or criticize it.

Completely dropping the RNG and implementing a deterministic system to make the game more accessible is a pretty major design decision, so I doubt Larian will ever change/fix it. I guess that the minority on Steam that screams "I MISS AND DIE. GAM SUX. FUK U LARIAN AN SWEN." broke Swen's heart.

 

[Perkel]

Yeah i am using it currently (D&D like scaling) and frankly speaking game is great that way.

Currently lvl 6 and i have like 60 life where normally you would get 60 by the time lvl 2 would hit.
What i like the most about changes is weapon damage. Difference between lvl1 weapon and lv5 is barely 2-3 damage. So starting sword doese 3-5 damage while lvl 5 does 5-8. which means if you will find nice or interesting gear it will last much more than vanilla gear.

Speaking of chances to bugg/debuf with that mod, seems ok. Only - is that if you want to heal someone via spell there is chance also that your spell will not work.

Overall i am having fun with those changes unlike vanilla.

 

[Origin]

I just finished Act 1.

Honestly, having a trouble remembering rpg that had me hooked like this.

I didn't like D:OS btw.

 

[Perkel]

Yeah i also just finished ACT 1. It honestly feels like you out of Midgard in FF7.

edit:

yeah initiative system is broken af. trying to kill few voidwalkers my guy is next, void walker attacks completely someone else and somehow my guy end up like 4 positions further. Why ?

edit2:

lack of ability to change how much AP you have drives me furious. If you don't take tallent then basically all you warriors is one attack per turn unless you stand completely near enemy.

 

[Perkel]

Ok i am dropping it.

I thought that hit points bloat was stupid but frankly speaking combat system is much more broken on fundamental level that doesn't really show when you hit higher levels where everyone walks with huge amount of both armor and magic armor.


Basically they killed everything that was fun about DOS1 combat model. DOS1 combat model was fun because it gave you breath of choices at every level that were meaningful at every part of the game. Despite wonky stat system skill themselves provided you with shitload of variety of builds with which you could have nice amount of fun even if other parts of the game didn't work that well.

There are few reasons for it.

1. They made AP system shit. DOS1 AP system worked really well, here if you attack twice in one turn it will be fucking christmass. Unless you take talent for movement and enemy isn't close to you and you play as warrior you can only attack once per turn. So either you mix class with mage and get those extra cheap teleports.

Thanks to broken AP system where you have starting 4 points and total of 6 (so you can't even skip torn properly lol) they killed combo system from DOS1. In DOS using environment was something you used frequently, you made 1-2 attacks and then you changed how barrel is placed or you set up oil puddle for next character etc.

In DOS2 you either attack or play with environment and optional things. But that is just half of it.

2. Physical/Magical Armor system is broken as fuck.

Gone are the days where you picked up nice mage skill and you used those to help you. Thanks to two different SEPARATE sets of armor you can't do shit unless you specialize either in magic or in melee combat. Want to play battlemage ? Tough luck. You will have to destroy both physical and armor to use your character properly.

Remember how you could just use skill and you had reasonable chance to get some status effect ? Nope. Unless you destroy armor no status effects outside of very very few which ignore armor completely.

So to play properly mixed classes you need to gang up on one enemy killing all fun as in DOS1 best part of game was controlling battlefield. You get warrior you have tough fight, you change for a second to bow and take 2-3 charm arrows and continue using your axe. Such thing is impossible in DOS2.

3. Ciivil skills,

Want to play a thief ? lol


Which is a shame. I like their world building and breath of shitload of things on maps to do in DOS2. It is just not rewarding to play and do those quests anymore.

Imo i think i will just try to make new char lone wolf and completely avoid combat as much as possible, play it with as thief and should work better.