Divinity Divinity: Original Sin 2 - Definitive Edition

[catfood]

Spoiler

Best review out there yet.

Where do I remember this "Ludo Lense" guy from?

He was a member here. Sadly he was driven away/got butthurt/or something.

 

[Jimmious]

Spoiler

Best review out there yet.

Where do I remember this "Ludo Lense" guy from?

He was a member here. Sadly he was driven away/got butthurt/or something.

Ah right! With some dragon-like profile pic right? I was sure he was a member but was surprised that I couldn't find him with the "@"

 

[catfood]

Spoiler

Best review out there yet.

Where do I remember this "Ludo Lense" guy from?

He was a member here. Sadly he was driven away/got butthurt/or something.

Ah right! With some dragon-like profile pic right? I was sure he was a member but was surprised that I couldn't find him with the "@"

Yeah, he had the HoMMo 3 azure dragon avatar. He self ejected, that's why you can't tag him anymore.

 

[Infinitron]

The vast majority of their data comes from early access players.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. This is a big budget game, they could have/likely had a big bank of playtesters we don't know about.

 

[Luckmann]

Yeah, at this point, "Early Access" is just "Open Beta", and "Open Beta" is just code for "Pre-Release Beta". The vast majority of would-be "testers" aren't even testing and reporting or giving feedback, they're just playing the game and the rest are just bitching as they always are. From a testing POV, Early Access is fucking useless. You get fuckall in terms of relevant mechanical feedback and bug-testing, you just get to take the pulse of the would-be community after each major change/push, which, sure, has a value on it's own, but you can't depend on it for actual advice. At best, there's a couple of people in certain groups or on specific forums that might discuss anything relevant in-depth.

They almost certainly had dedicated alpha- and beta-testers, internally and externally, and they are almost certainly under NDA:s.

 

[Fairfax]

Why do you assume they'd care more about powergamers than the vast majority of their potential customers?

I don't think they would cater to powergamers more than the majority of their playerbase, no. That would be idiotic. At the same time, putting some points in wits is hardly powergaming so I don't see much relevance in your point.

Also, both are inherently connected in this case. If powergamers can stomp mobs in the opening sequence, mobs can do it to bad players/weak parties. Same with the armour system: if you can't abuse cc to beat enemies, enemies can't do it to you either.

Yes, I heard you the first time but it simply doesn't line up with the facts nor the history of the game's iterations. You seem to think that the likelihood of "the vast majority of the playerbase" not taking any points in wits and getting stomped by fights that aren't designed with mobs that have high wits in the first place is greater than the possibility that they re-balanced this due to wits being an easy dump stat that led to fights being too easy to control. The latter is far more consistent with how they've handled combat throughout the two games, I don't see a reason to turn this into a dumbing down for casuals maneuver unless you're looking to find it there. In fact, they purposefully scripted some fights to force just this scenario where the enemy owns the opening sequence.

But the game is dumbed down. It seems the disagreement here is regarding their intent. I believe they did it on purpose, you believe they just wanted to balance things because of powergamers and the dumbed down mechanics are an unfortunate consequence. If that was the case and the mechanics weren't working as intended, Larian would've shown interest in fixing them, but they've done the very opposite. They're comfortable with how they work and said they're not going to change them. That eliminates any potential excuse.

The vast majority of their data comes from early access players.

You don't know that, and game itself speaks to how much they care about what powergamers and grognards think.

There wouldn't be any meaningful data from PAX attendees that would result in a change like this.

They get to watch people from their target audience play their game and talk to them about it. It's a very useful and common practice, and they certainly did plenty of it in house as well.

So you're down to saying that Larian changed this because of a couple of journalists and streamers getting stomped in opening sequences as opposed to the vast majority of the criticism being that wits was an obvious dump stat. So did you actually witness journalists and streamers getting stomped in opening sequences because of poor initiative setups or are you just making this up as you go along?

It seems you've never seen casuals play this sort of game or PnP RPGs. And yes, any studio making a game with a budget like D:OS2 cares about and pays attention to streamers and journalists.

I still find it comical that you're defining the investment of a few points in wits as powergaming. Honestly, it looks like you really have little familiarity with the development of the game and just looking for reasons to reinforce your narrative. There are plenty of other decisions that can account for bringing in a larger tent of players like the origin stories, voice acting, etc. No need to be find boogeymen in every change.

If you think it's just about the stat, perhaps you are part of their target audience after all.

Anyway, I don't know why you care whether or not the initiative was dumbed down on purpose. They're very happy with how it turned out, as they are with everything else that's dumbed down.

 

[JasonNH]

It seems the disagreement here is regarding their intent. I believe they did it on purpose, you believe they just wanted to balance things because of powergamers and the dumbed down mechanics are an unfortunate consequence. If that was the case and the mechanics weren't working as intended, Larian would've shown interest in fixing them, but they've done the very opposite. They're comfortable with how they work and said they're not going to change them. That eliminates any potential excuse.

Essentially, yes, that's the disagreement in a nutshell. I see them as biting off more than they could chew with the number of attempted changes and rather than investing the time to rethink attribute incentives and/or going through and adjusting stat columns for all the enemies they decided to take the path of least resistance and simply shuffle the deck. I saw absolutely no evidence for people complaining about chain stomping initiative issues other than when it's scripted.

If you think it's just about the stat, perhaps you are part of their target audience after all.

 

[Fairfax]

It seems the disagreement here is regarding their intent. I believe they did it on purpose, you believe they just wanted to balance things because of powergamers and the dumbed down mechanics are an unfortunate consequence. If that was the case and the mechanics weren't working as intended, Larian would've shown interest in fixing them, but they've done the very opposite. They're comfortable with how they work and said they're not going to change them. That eliminates any potential excuse.

Essentially, yes, that's the disagreement in a nutshell. I see them as biting off more than they could chew with the number of attempted changes and rather than investing the time to rethink attribute incentives and/or going through and adjusting stat columns for all the enemies they decided to take the path of least resistance and simply shuffle the deck. I saw absolutely no evidence for people complaining about chain stomping initiative issues other than when it's scripted.

If you think it's just about the stat, perhaps you are part of their target audience after all.

In a traditional initiative system, the turn order is supposed to be an important factor in the player's decision-making. With a forced round-robin, initiative is largely irrelevant. The dumbing down is self-evident, so it's reasonable to assume it was deliberate. The initiative system is not an outlier either, it's consistent with the rest of the game's design being dumbed down and casual-friendly.

 

[cruel]

i decided to give the game another chance, with a new, more meta-approved party, and a shitload of mods. funny how the experience dramatically improves when the armor and resistance systems, two of the main features, are taken off the picture.

Which mods for getting rid of armor system?

 

[Blaine]

Yeah, at this point, "Early Access" is just "Open Beta", and "Open Beta" is just code for "Pre-Release Beta". The vast majority of would-be "testers" aren't even testing and reporting or giving feedback, they're just playing the game and the rest are just bitching as they always are.

I played the experimental builds of Subnautica during Early Access; it had a nice in-game bug reporting feature that I used every time I encountered a bug. In the case of newly introduced bugs, they would get a lot of reports and generally be squashed quickly.

Then there are games like Avorion. It doesn't have a bug reporting feature. I once submitted a bug report stating that I'd frequently seen weapon recipes in which damage increased with fewer parts added to them, rather than more. Two weeks later, a developer replied asking for the exact universe seed and factory. I wasn't even playing the game at that point. All this fag had to do was spend a grand total of maybe two minutes admin-warping from factory to factory on any seed and he'd have found the issue, but nope. He'd rather spend two minutes checking and re-checking a thread. Fortunately, someone else who was actively playing provided a lazy button for him.

Personally I don't mind helping to test, but most people just want to play the game in 99% of cases. And why wouldn't they? They're paying for privilege.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

i decided to give the game another chance, with a new, more meta-approved party, and a shitload of mods. funny how the experience dramatically improves when the armor and resistance systems, two of the main features, are taken off the picture.

Which mods for getting rid of armor system?

"controls are back" doesn't completely get rid of it but lessens the problem.
otherwise there's "attributes against status effects" that's a complete overhaul.

 

[Fairfax]

Not really:

TW3: 26.5%
Skyrim: 32%
DA:O: 36%
FO4: 25.2%
ME2: 56%
ME3: 42%
DS2: 33%
DX HR: 37.2%

Got more stats and didn't know where to post them, so here's an updated list:

• Mass Effect 2: 56%
• South Park: Stick of Truth: 47%
• Mass Effect 3: 42%
• Deus Ex: Human Revolution: 37.2%
• Dragon Age: Origins: 36%
• Dark Souls 2: 33%
• Deus Ex: Mankind Divided: 32.4%
• Skyrim: 32%
• The Witcher 3: 26.5%
• Fallout 4: 25.2%
• The Witcher 2: 18.9%
• Invisible, Inc: 18.9%
• The Banner Saga: 16.4%
• Tides of Numenera: 14.4%
• Dragon’s Dogma: 12.1% (2.8% twice)
• Legend of Grimrock: 10.3%
• Pillars of Eternity: 10.2%
• Divinity: Original Sin 2: 8.5%
• Legend of Grimrock 2: 8.3%
• Blackguards: 7.6%
• Divinity: Original Sin: 6.6%
• Expeditions: Conquistador: 5.1%
• Darkest Dungeon: 2.1%

Some games have an achievement for each different ending, so I did some estimates ranging from 1-30% of players doing more than one ending, capped at pre-ending achievements if available:

FNV: 17-24% (19-27% if you only include players who got past Doc Mitchell)
Dark Souls 3: 30-37%
Tyranny: 20-27%
Wasteland 2: 5-6%
Shadowrun Dragonfall: 11-15%
Shadowrun Hong Kong: 25-33%

 

[Xeon]

I am kinda happy because Hong Kong had a lot of people finishing it but kinda wondering as well, if its a lot more because the player base was less or if the percentage was at the same amount of players.

 

[Fairfax]

I am kinda happy because Hong Kong had a lot of people finishing it but kinda wondering as well, if its a lot more because the player base was less or if the percentage was at the same amount of players.

Dragonfall has almost twice as many players (427k x 217k), but the number who finished each is in the same ballpark:

Dragonfall: 47-64,000
Hong Kong: 54-71,000

 

[DeepOcean]

Best review out there yet.

Best review of the game, I'm still not sure if I laugh or get depressed about the blind leading the blind kind of reception this game got. This game got covered by hundreds of people that are paid to do this and still, Luckmann and Ludo Sense employed more brainpower at the game than this legion of supposedly know it all critics, we live on a society of lies, really. Really, human beings always were kinda of shitty but the mass media brought the worse on us on hyper drive, we don't talk anymore, it is just bullshit marketing everywhere of someone trying to bullshit his way to sell you something.

Casual players don't wanna hear they fucking suck, developers sing the tune of no one children left behind pretending virtue of "inclusiveness" when lack of balls and wanting low risk money is the more accurate thing, journalists or are incompetent fools or too worried with their contacts pretending a conflict of interests the size of the Everest doesn't exist and publishers develop scientific researched way into how more effectively fool people into giving their money. Kinda funny watching this weasel show.

 

[himmy]

Best review out there yet.

Best review of the game, I'm still not sure if I laugh or get depressed about the blind leading the blind kind of reception this game got. This game got covered by hundreds of people that are paid to do this and still, Luckmann and Ludo Sense employed more brainpower at the game than this legion of supposedly know it all critics, we live on a society of lies, really. Really, human beings always were kinda of shitty but the mass media brought the worse on us on hyper drive, we don't talk anymore, it is just bullshit marketing everywhere of someone trying to bullshit his way to sell you something.

Casual players don't wanna hear they fucking suck, developers sing the tune of no one children left behind pretending virtue of "inclusiveness" when lack of balls and wanting low risk money is the more accurate thing, journalists or are incompetent fools or too worried with their contacts pretending a conflict of interests the size of the Everest doesn't exist and publishers develop scientific researched way into how more effectively fool people into giving their money. Kinda funny watching this weasel show.

That. Or, you know, some people liked it and some didn't.

 

[DeepOcean]

That. Or, you know, some people liked it and some didn't.

I'm not talking of someone liking it or not, could care less, played worse RPGs, this one is more mediocre than truly bad, but I'm talking about the reception, outside the codex, people are just insane, the idea is that this is an indie RPG darling and anyone that criticizes or are fools or are mean trolls. Marketing induced mass delusion. It appears that the fashion nowdays is to both direct and indirect marketing creating an unthinking gestalt that a game is wonderful and you must white knight it to death or you are a irrational hater (Witcher 3 is another great example of this). I'm guilty of this behavior sometimes as I'm biased as everyone else but when I see a barrage of gushing zero content reviews from the likes of IGN praising Larian and Larian loving it proud that imbeciles/weasels like the people on the IGN editorial board like them, I get sick. The blind leading the blind.

 

[Perkel]

Finally started it.

I must say i am positively shocked so far.

- Music is fucking great. I mean DOS had great music but this just knocks it out of the park.
- Same good old DOS1 combat system but on steroids with some changes
- They reduced WOW artstyle a lot. There is some but it isn't in your face like it used to in DOS1.
- It feels a lot like Dragon Commander RPG version with how game looks and feels.
- VA are pretty good. Usually i don't like VA but here i kind of want to listen to those people around.
- Narrator being voiced and having own character is fucking great idea.

So far so good. It definitely got me at first touch which is rare for games i play.

 

[Jezal_k23]

It's great!

But the fantasy is progressively ruined the more you play it.

Enjoy!

 

[ZoddGuts]

The D:OS games don't really have a strong narrative for people to bother to finish those game for it. If anything Larian should make shorter D:OS games, more people would finish those games if it was in the 35-40 hr range. I don't see the point of these games being 50+ hours when the narrative is weak and the characters are barely passable.

 

[Perkel]

The D:OS games don't really have a strong narrative for people to bother to finish those game for it. If anything Larian should make shorter D:OS games, more people would finish those games if it was in the 35-40 hr range. I don't see the point of these games being 50+ hours when the narrative is weak and the characters are barely passable.

Actually that is not that bad of an idea. They should focus better imo on rogue like aproach where they could use their skills system, character creation to max.


Something like Dragon's Crown structure where you have one hub city and you went into new dungeons

 

[JasonNH]

New interview with Swen by a couple of Kotaku writers:

http://traffic.megaphone.fm/PPY1444384226.mp3

Interview starts right before the 37 minute mark. Nothing really new, though I did think it was interesting when he addressed the issue of level discrepancy making such a large impact.

 

[Infinitron]

Divinity: Original Sin 2's Director Wants The Game To Kick Players' Asses

Today on Kotaku Splitscreen we’re talking to the director of Divinity: Original Sin 2, one of the best role-playing games we’ve ever played.

First, Kirk and I talk about Nintendo Labo and The Leftovers before getting into the news of the week (18:37) on Counter-Strike’s co-creator getting charged with commercial sexual abuse of a minor, a Subnautica developer losing his job, and the controversy over Toad’s head. Then we talk to Swen Vincke, CEO of Larian Studios and director of D:OS2 (36:53), about staying independent, developing RPGs without filler, and much more. Finally, Kirk and I reconvene to talk Rise of the Tomb Raider and Monster Hunter: World (1:07:17).

Plus: NEW LOGO!!!!

Get the MP3 here, or read an excerpt below:

Jason: What makes [Divinity: Original Sin 2] feel so special to me, and why I think it’s one of the greatest RPGs I’ve ever played, is that it feels like there’s no filler. Every single time you do anything, you’re always either making an interesting decision, fighting an interesting battle, making choices that have consequences. I didn’t even think it was possible to make a game that was 100 hours long with no filler—was that something you had in mind as you were going? I apologize, I haven’t played any other Larian games, but is that a pillar for you guys?

Swen: Yeah. In our history, we sometimes had to rush games to ship them. That’s where filler comes from, essentially. We try to avoid it. We hate it ourselves, and I think if you see us moving forward, you’ll see less and less filler. Production’s a reality, so sometimes you have to cut corners, but we always feel very unhappy about the corners we cut.

Jason: So what’s an example of a corner you had to cut on Divinity: Original Sin 2?

Swen: *laughs* There are some combats that I think we could’ve done more extensively. You don’t know the narratives we cut, but we did cut quite a few of them. Sometimes if you’re unlucky you might fall in that particular pathway, and you feel it, and you say, ‘Ah this is not as cool as what I expected there to be.’ That always hurts, but on the whole, there’s really a lot of stuff to be enjoyed when you play D:OS2.

Kirk: I’m curious about something related to filler but a little different, and that’s the notion of grind in an RPG. There’s really no grind in Divinity: Original Sin 2. One of the things that strikes me as very interesting about the game is, there are areas where you can go and areas you can’t. There’s a really steep differential between each level. If I’m level 12 and I’m fighting a level 13 enemy, they’re gonna really kick my ass, where if I’m level 13 fighting a level 12 enemy, I’m gonna have a significant advantage. There’s really no point at which you can say, ‘Man I really wish I was level 13, I’m gonna go to the Cliffs of Noor and kill 5,000 drakes’ or whatever, and level up. You just can’t do that in this game. What’s your thinking behind that from a game design perspective?

Swen: So first of all, kicking your ass is important for you to feel important when you manage to kick their ass. This is one of the basic tenets of our design. It’s always possible to deal with enemies that are higher level than you, but you have to start exploiting the system. When you do that, you feel really good about yourself.

Kirk: It can be really fun.

Swen: Exactly. For that reason, we actually make the differential so high, and some people hate it, right? But it’s a conscious choice we put in the game. It has a downside—if you missed something, you might feel like you’re stuck. So that’s something we’re fighting with. But on the whole, I think people who play Original Sin 2, they get challenged, and when they overcome the challenge they feel like, ‘OK, I achieved something, and this was really rewarding. Because now I get rewarded for all the potential frustration I had to overcome to get there.’

Kirk: I do yell at this game a lot, but I really like that feeling—I’m sitting here thinking just as an enemy beats me over the head and I get mad at it, but there’s that feeling like you’re a genius.

Swen: Often you are a genius. Because we see things that people come up with—that’s fantastic, the way they’re doing that. This is also why there’s no grind, because each combat is designed as a tactical puzzle you have to solve. If you have combats that are as challenging as they are in Original Sin 2, then when you go from combat to combat it has to be different. So that’s a very big focus in design also, to make sure that you never have the same combat experience. Because otherwise you wouldn’t do it—you wouldn’t do it three times, if you have to spend 20 minutes in combat, maybe an hour if you get your ass kicked, then you don’t want to do that.

Listen to the full show for much, much more. As always, you can find Splitscreen on Apple Podcasts and Google Play. Leave us a review if you like what you hear, and reach us at splitscreen@kotaku.com with any and all questions, requests, and suggestions.

 

[Fairfax]

Swen: Exactly. For that reason, we actually make the differential so high, and some people hate it, right? But it’s a conscious choice we put in the game. It has a downside—if you missed something, you might feel like you’re stuck. So that’s something we’re fighting with. But on the whole, I think people who play Original Sin 2, they get challenged, and when they overcome the challenge they feel like, ‘OK, I achieved something, and this was really rewarding. Because now I get rewarded for all the potential frustration I had to overcome to get there.’

It seems he doesn't really get the criticism. They achieved that with the stat bloat and dumbed down mechanics, that's why some people hate it. It makes exploration railroaded and renders the equipment obsolete with every level. The end result is quite similar to level scaling, just less obvious.

This is also why there’s no grind, because each combat is designed as a tactical puzzle you have to solve.

 

[Infinitron]

Well, it's sort of the perverse polar opposite of level scaling.