Game News Divinity: Original Sin Kickstarter Update #66: Hardcore Mode Overview

[Roguey]

So pretty much the generic thematic stuff you would find in a post apocalyptic setting.

No.

While I also prefer F:NV's setting and encounters over D:OS, I feel Larian's writers were just as successful with their fantasy background. I don't see how they look amateurish compared to Obsidian's work with F:NV...

I think it's important to always keep the themes of the game in mind. Wherever you can reinforce themes, it helps make the game feel more cohesive. Then again, I don't think the themes should be forced in at all costs.
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This may seem obvious/dumb to say, but I've always asked designers to keep the basic theme of Fallout (the unchanging nature/inevitability of human conflict) in mind at all times. Whether it acts as a major or minor theme in any given storyline, I believe it's central making the world feel as it does.
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I approach storytelling from the perspective of theme and conflict first and work backward from that. I have been criticized for developing plots that do not meet players' basic expectations for tempo/pacing/structure, so I may be the wrong person to listen to when it comes to such things.
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I think of it as "content-as-something-that-isn't-worthless-garbage". If you're going to bother putting something into your game, put a little effort into conceiving it.

The best concept artists I have worked with have a *concept* behind their concept. It's goofy that I have to call this out, but a lot of artist don't. If you bother thinking about why you're making content choices -- the marks on a drawing, the words in a conversation, the choices in an advancement system -- it tends to help create the feeling of cohesion. Elements are rooted in the fictitious place and time you have created.

If it matters for visuals (and I believe it does), it matters for dialogue.
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A lot of RPGs are long, certainly longer than the average film. If there is not some thematic thread running through all of that time and much of the dialogue, the experience as a whole can fall flat. Taken as snapshots, characters and plot elements may stand on their own, but they are essentially reduced to one-offs with very little connective tissue binding them together.

We already have plenty of examples of well-written characters in video gaming. Writing consistently entertaining dialogue requires skill, but I believe the best writing in any genre combines well-written characters with an interesting exploration of theme. Video games don't do that very often, overtly or subtextually.

"Entertainment value" and "depth" are not intrinsically linked. Many people are entertained by things that have very little depth. Some of the most popular "western" RPG characters, I would argue, have very little depth and are not connected to any consistently established theme.

So, when I'm asked if I think gamers have lowered their standards for writing, I honestly have to ask, "What standards?" From what I see and hear people discussing, those standards stop at entertaining dialogue and an interesting plot. In my opinion, that is a very low bar to reach -- and I write this fully aware that I do not write the most entertaining characters or plots. I just think that with all of the good writers in the industry, we can do much better than we have.
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After decades of industry evolution, our subject matter and thematic delivery are still juvenile. Count the number of games that have established and reinforced a consistent theme through subtext. In the rare case when a game story has a clearly discernible theme, it is delivered with the subtlety of a claw hammer to the skull.

I don't see many gamers noticing this, much less complaining about it.

While I haven't played D:OS, based on DKS and what I played of DD, no one at Larian thinks of these things at all.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

While I haven't played D:OS, based on DKS and what I played of DD, no one at Larian thinks of these things at all.

'cause they too busy making da game fun.

 

[Davaris]

NCR, Republic, and anything resembling US government of course makes total sense, but the Legion was one of those things that made me roll my eyes and be unable to take the entire setting seriously. Most people in the US now have no more understanding of the Romans than they do of the Illyrians or any other Classical-era people, the idea that this would be some rallying cry to base a civilization upon is pure insanity.



Josh is a history buff and he probably just wanted to throw it in there because Romans are cool and who cares, but as a goddamn history buff he really should have known better, it makes zero sense, and it's all sort of bizarre considering he applied historical perspectives and the way society evolves realistically to PoE's setting.

I didn't even have to think that deeply about it. Try telling a bunch of straight men in RL (or the apocalypse), they must wear mini-skirts and football helmets, while everyone else in the world wears pants... You know they would laugh at you and put on pants instead.

While I haven't played D:OS, based on DKS and what I played of DD, no one at Larian thinks of these things at all.

Come on Roguey, you can't troll effectively unless you've at least played the game.

 

[Infinitron]

Caesar spent decades brainwashing his primitive tribals into becoming Roman legionnaires.

The real plot hole in FO:NV, which I've seen nobody on the Codex complain about, is how Mr. House managed to turn a bunch of equally retrograde tribals into Sicilian mobsters, Frank Sinatra/Bugsy Siegel-style cool cats and haute culture artistes in just SEVEN YEARS.

In both cases, your real problem should be with the concept of "tribals" in a post-apocalyptic setting as a whole, meaning, Fallout 2.

 

[Davaris]

I didn't get far enough to see the brainwashing explanation, because it was all so silly. Imagine these guys walking around the world and everyone laughing at them? That's how it would be in RL. Anyhow interesting to learn it was Josh's idea.

 

[Cassidy]

Obsidian should have studied fascist Italy as a source of inspiration for an authoritarian regime trying(and failing horribly) to bring the rebirth of the Roman Empire. As incompetent as the Italians were in WW2, Mussolini didn't literally dress them up as Roman legionaries to fight a modern war like the LARP shit of the Legion. Scrapping the tribal crap altogether would have been pretty good as well.

The Legion should have training and military discipline almost as good as the Brotherhood of Steel, military equipment superior to NCR's instead of LARP crap and no stupid Luddite crap over medical technology. Then it wouldn't be so ridiculous as it proved itself to be. The idea any Roman reenactment must include Classical Era social institutions shared by nearly, if not all civilizations of the time, such as slavery, or cruel execution methods, is retarded as fuck too and only serves to make them into obvious mustache-twirling EEEEVIL villains rather than a reasonable side for non-sociopathic player characters whose players are roleplaying as authoritarian, conservative and/or right-wing.

As uninspiring and tryhard to be funny as D:OS is, its setting doesn't go even close to the depths of retardation within the overrated setting and story of New Vegas, and the fact D:OS is lighthearted makes its silliness more tolerable, even if unfunny.

 

[Davaris]

Its straight out of the Fallout 2 theme park design. People dressing up in silly costumes, pretending to be Romans, 1920s gangsters, or Hong Kong Kung Fu movie characters.

 

[Davaris]

Obsidian should have studied fascist Italy as a source of inspiration for an authoritarian regime trying(and failing horribly) to bring the rebirth of the Roman Empire. As incompetent as the Italians were in WW2, Mussolini didn't literally dress them up as Roman legionaries to fight a modern war like the LARP shit of the Legion. Scrapping the tribal crap altogether would have been pretty good as well.

The Legion should have training and military discipline almost as good as the Brotherhood of Steel, military equipment superior to NCR's instead of LARP crap and no stupid Luddite crap over medical technology. Then it wouldn't be so ridiculous as it proved itself to be. The idea any Roman reenactment must include Classical Era social institutions shared by nearly, if not all civilizations of the time, such as slavery, or cruel execution methods, is retarded as fuck too and only serves to make them into obvious mustache-twirling EEEEVIL villains rather than a reasonable side for non-sociopathic player characters whose players are roleplaying as authoritarian, conservative and/or right-wing.
.

But you need to "reinforce themes" with all the subtly of a super sledge hammer hitting an egg, or their sub 80 IQ fans might miss all that.

 

[tuluse]

Obsidian should have studied fascist Italy as a source of inspiration for an authoritarian regime trying(and failing horribly) to bring the rebirth of the Roman Empire. As incompetent as the Italians were in WW2, Mussolini didn't literally dress them up as Roman legionaries to fight a modern war like the LARP shit of the Legion. Scrapping the tribal crap altogether would have been pretty good as well.

Wars in Fallout aren't modern wars either.

The Legion should have training and military discipline almost as good as the Brotherhood of Steel, military equipment superior to NCR's instead of LARP crap and no stupid Luddite crap over medical technology. Then it wouldn't be so ridiculous as it proved itself to be. The idea any Roman reenactment must include Classical Era social institutions shared by nearly, if not all civilizations of the time, such as slavery, or cruel execution methods, is retarded as fuck too and only serves to make them into obvious mustache-twirling EEEEVIL villains rather than a reasonable side for non-sociopathic player characters whose players are roleplaying as authoritarian, conservative and/or right-wing.

The Italians had worse tech and discipline than every other major power in WW2. Do you want them to use Italy for inspiration or not?

Also, the NCR has spent over 100 years working on building their economy up, while Ceasar was building essential a mongol horde.

As uninspiring and tryhard to be funny as D:OS is, its setting doesn't go even close to the depths of retardation within the overrated setting and story of New Vegas, and the fact D:OS is lighthearted makes its silliness more tolerable, even if unfunny.

It doesn't matter the setting is incoherent because we weren't trying!

 

[Infinitron]

Caesar is a hyper-charismatic madman. He's a Jim Jones. He's an L. Ron Hubbard. He's a Thulsa Doom. with the power to make his followers jump willingly to their deaths. Him working over a bunch of tribals over several decades and gradually converting them to Roman-esque ways isn't as ridiculous as it may seem.

Again, Mr. House managing to turn a bunch of yokels into obscure 20th century stereotypes within mere years, fundamentally changing their attitudes towards life and even their speech patterns(!), not for the purpose of conquest, victory and glory, but simply to set up New Vegas as a more appealing tourist trap(!!), without even having to be present or applying much if any force(!!!), is much much weirder.

And as for crucifixion and enslavement, since ISIS is doing that sort of stuff right now, one would think it the least objectionable part of the Legion's portrayal, at least in retrospect.

 

[commie]

Not this idiotic relativism regarding what is 'retarded' and what isn't in a game with giant ants and scorpions compared with a game with magic, zombies and dragons again!

Hurr...my game with giant ants doesn't make sense because a faction doesn't behave exactly like a real world one! Oh noes!

 

[Jaesun]

What is this thread about?

 

[Davaris]

Fallout vs Fallout 2 theme park design, apparently.

Should just call it Westworld design.

 

[Morality Games]

Caesar is a hyper-charismatic madman. He's a Jim Jones. He's an L. Ron Hubbard. He's a Thulsa Doom. with the power to make his followers jump willingly to their deaths. Him working over a bunch of tribals over several decades and gradually converting them to Roman-esque ways isn't as ridiculous as it may seem.

Again, Mr. House managing to turn a bunch of yokels into obscure 20th century stereotypes within mere years, fundamentally changing their attitudes towards life and even their speech patterns(!), not for the purpose of conquest, victory and glory, but simply to set up New Vegas as a more appealing tourist trap(!!), without even having to be present or applying much if any force(!!!), is much much weirder.

And as for crucifixion and enslavement, since ISIS is doing that sort of stuff right now, one would think it the least objectionable part of the Legion's portrayal, at least in retrospect.

Particularly since upon further investigation it is revealed that he has done so by convincing them he is an emissary of the gods who was trained by Mars himself -- the Legion would collapse if they knew he had devised the system from books.

Compare with say Joseph Smith. If you can tap into that part of human consciousness reserved for reverence for the divine it is possible to pull off a huge cultural revolution.

 

[set]

The only thing dumb about the Legion shit is their choice of weapons. The only thing modern they use in game is that artillery gun. Most of the legion uses melee weapons and football pads, which makes no sense whatsoever. I think history has shown, time and again, that modern weapons far outstrip the power of ordinary bludgeons and machetes.

They can wear all the stupid costumes they want... as long as they use modern military tactics like the NCR or the brotherhood. Literally, all you need is one or two gatling guns set up at a choke point guarded by entrenched soldiers and the legion shouldn't be able to conquer that region. They would just be slaughtered. Realistically, the NCR would kill 50 legion troops for every 1 NCR soldier. Probably even better ratios if they have a good commander.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Mr. House managed to turn a bunch of equally retrograde tribals into Sicilian mobsters, Frank Sinatra/Bugsy Siegel-style cool cats and haute culture artistes in just SEVEN YEARS.

He might have paid them.

 

[Dreaad]

The only thing dumb about the Legion shit is their choice of weapons. The only thing modern they use in game is that artillery gun. Most of the legion uses melee weapons and football pads, which makes no sense whatsoever. I think history has shown, time and again, that modern weapons far outstrip the power of ordinary bludgeons and machetes.

They can wear all the stupid costumes they want... as long as they use modern military tactics like the NCR or the brotherhood. Literally, all you need is one or two gatling guns set up at a choke point guarded by entrenched soldiers and the legion shouldn't be able to conquer that region. They would just be slaughtered. Realistically, the NCR would kill 50 legion troops for every 1 NCR soldier. Probably even better ratios if they have a good commander.

I clearly remember that close combat has always been a part of Fallout. Even if you ignore that because war does not equal single combat.... I also clearly remember the legion using rifles, pistols and grenades, scavenging power armor for their elite dudes, power fists and so on. I mean if the NCR can defeat the Brotherhood, the Legion being able to defeat the NCR isn't that much of a stretch, especially when they supposedly are more aggresive/loyal, fueled up on psycho and jet and outnumber the NCR's army.

Besides as Mr brain tumor explains to the courier, he has a special sect of his force infiltrate wherever he is attacking, assassinate key figures, blow up key structures, cause unrest by bribing local power groups etc. He isn't averse to hiring the Khans or Gangs who do in fact use energy weapons and the like, simply stripping them of those things after victory is achieved.
The fact that he doesn't arm his entire force with machine guns is in some ways a clever way to maintain power and control over a huge mob of rapist murderers. Stretched fiction sure but not entirely unreasonable.

 

[Declinator]

Not this idiotic relativism regarding what is 'retarded' and what isn't in a game with giant ants and scorpions compared with a game with magic, zombies and dragons again!

Hurr...my game with giant ants doesn't make sense because a faction doesn't behave exactly like a real world one! Oh noes!

Not this idiotic idea that "if something is unreal then anything unreal is totally fine" again!

 

[FeelTheRads]

Not this idiotic relativism regarding what is 'retarded' and what isn't in a game with giant ants and scorpions compared with a game with magic, zombies and dragons again!

Hurr...my game with giant ants doesn't make sense because a faction doesn't behave exactly like a real world one! Oh noes!

Commie... commie never changes.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...e-vault-experiments-again.96113/#post-3664588

 

[Darkzone]

Is this a DOS thead or Fallout NV?

 

[Jaesun]

This thread is now about dancing cats!