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Development Info Divinity: Original Sin To Be Partially Funded via Kickstarter

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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You're mixing two different time periods here. The reasons for one PC-exclusive game selling more than another PC-exclusive game in 1998 are different from the reasons why console-style games sell more than PC-style games in 2013. The industry has changed and gaming audiences have changed.
Non-action RPGs have never ever sold as well as action games. While the dumbed down action RPG managed to penetrate the ever expanding action games market, non-action RPG market stayed the same.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium

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Do you see the difference between Arcanum and Baldur's Gate? Well, that's the difference that I'm talking about. The difference that keeps such RPGs from selling well.
Being released in an unfinished state?
First and foremost, I'd rather play unfinished or flawed games like Arcanum than finished and oh so awesome games like BG, Skyrim, and Witcher.
Well I'd rather play something that is a proper RPG and also well-designed, I settle with what we have because it's what we have.

Second, I don't recall Arcanum being released in an unfinished state. It was a flawed game and had a number of issues, but I can't think of a game that didn't have them.
I can't think of many games with worse combat systems. If they considered a central aspect of the game in that awful state "ready for release" I don't even know what to say.
 

evdk

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Codex 2012 Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Well I'd rather play something that is a proper RPG and also well-designed, I settle with what we have because it's what we have.
So would we all, but as you have said, we have what we have.

I can't think of many games with worse combat systems. If they considered a central aspect of the game in that awful state "ready for release" I don't even know what to say.
The combat was shitty, but it worked as intended, ergo it was not unfinished.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
You're mixing two different time periods here. The reasons for one PC-exclusive game selling more than another PC-exclusive game in 1998 are different from the reasons why console-style games sell more than PC-style games in 2013. The industry has changed and gaming audiences have changed.
Non-action RPGs have never ever sold as well as action games. While the dumbed down action RPG managed to penetrate the ever expanding action games market, non-action RPG market stayed the same.

Okay, but what does this have to do with your arguments about Fallout's sales back in 1998?

Oh wait, you probably think Baldur's Gate is a "dumbed down action RPG".
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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Congrats VD, you're doing great on sounding like a pedantic fool who insists on definitions that have no practical value.
Well, I suppose you know better.

PS. Please don't think less of me for not insulting you back, but I find it dreadfully boring these days.

No, stop trying to sidetrack points so you can run away from the main topic and play your quote-ad-nauseum strategy.
You made a statement relevant to the conversation. I asked you to explain - instead of calling you a fool and claiming that your statement has no value. How does it make it side-tracking again?

If you don't want to explain, don't. There is no need to make a fuss about it.

I thought it was their best game. Div2 was too actiony for my taste.
That's nice, but the reason I brought up Div2 was that it t through in a lot of RPG elements on the non-combat and dialogue side. And while the gameplay mechanisms of Div2 were twitchy, it honestly depended a lot on stats, to the point where I didn't like the game because most if not all attacks and spells were auto-aimed. If you've played through both Div2 and VtmB you'd realize they're comparable on the action - - - - - RPG spectrum.
Comparable they may be, but the game still falls way short, which is why BL is $6 on the latest Codex chart, and Div 2 #45, aka 'who cares about it?'
 

Cowboy Moment

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I agree that the types of games Troika made simply don't have that much mass-market appeal (Arcanum sold about as much as Falllout 2 afaik). Still, pretending that the release-state of their games didn't have a major impact on their success over the years is divorcing oneself from reality. Bloodlines actually had the potential to be a major hit, if it shipped in a more polished state, with improved performance, and not in the shadow of HL2.
 

Vault Dweller

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Well I'd rather play something that is a proper RPG and also well-designed, I settle with what we have because it's what we have.
In my observation all great RPGs had numerous issues - a side effect of aiming to deliver more rather than less. Daggerfall is still my favourite Bethesda game, despite the bugs.

I can't think of many games with worse combat systems. If they considered a central aspect of the game in that awful state "ready for release" I don't even know what to say.
I can't speak for Troika, but I highly doubt that they've considered the combat system a central aspect of the game. It kinda sucked and was the least enjoyable aspect, but it wasn't as awful as you imply. It was generic, uninspiring, and lacked depth. Welcome to 95% of RT RPG combat systems.
 

Modron

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You're mixing two different time periods here. The reasons for one PC-exclusive game selling more than another PC-exclusive game in 1998 are different from the reasons why console-style games sell more than PC-style games in 2013. The industry has changed and gaming audiences have changed.
Non-action RPGs have never ever sold as well as action games. While the dumbed down action RPG managed to penetrate the ever expanding action games market, non-action RPG market stayed the same.

Okay, but what does this have to do with your arguments about Fallout's sales back in 1998?

Oh wait, you probably think Baldur's Gate is a "dumbed down action RPG".

I kind of do... after playing the fallout series to death and pulling a morgoth on BG, I was fairly disappointed with the bastardization of low-level dnd combat mechanics with pseudo real time combat (1 attack every 6 seconds le sigh). No to mention areas filled with lots of trash mobs, no real reaction to many of your choices, et cetera. Even back then, I readily preferred the turn-based, phase-based, and even full real-time combat over that weird amalgamation of the real-time with rounds.

The higher level mechanics of BG 2 made the combat more bearable but even then it was kind of a cluster fuck, no using melee characters to hold the line, targeting AoE spells being particularly derpy, and so on. While I did enjoy both games, I doubt I will ever do a complete run-through of BG again (I might replay 2 sometime after I have whittled down my backlog of games on steam and gog).
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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You're mixing two different time periods here. The reasons for one PC-exclusive game selling more than another PC-exclusive game in 1998 are different from the reasons why console-style games sell more than PC-style games in 2013. The industry has changed and gaming audiences have changed.
Non-action RPGs have never ever sold as well as action games. While the dumbed down action RPG managed to penetrate the ever expanding action games market, non-action RPG market stayed the same.

Okay, but what does this have to do with your arguments about Fallout's sales back in 1998?

Oh wait, you probably think Baldur's Gate is a "dumbed down action RPG".
It's an action adventure with adjustable stats, which is why it sold a shitload of copies, leaving Fallout far behind, and being credited, alongside Diablo, with single-handedly resurrecting RPGs and making them fun. Bonus question: what did Diablo and BG do to make RPGs fun?
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Vault Dweller Fallout is an adventure game/RPG hybrid ("OH I NEED TO USE A ROPE TO ENTER VAULT 15 SO DEEP") that makes late 90's newfag gamers think they're "elite" hardcore RPGers because of its incongruent single character turn-based combat (shooting mutants in the eyes, YEEEEHAW) which totally misses the point of TB combat, and because they have enough of an attention span to reroll their character and restart the game after learning that Outdoorsman and Gambling are useless, and to survive the game's godawful clunky interface.

Guess what, Fallout fans? You're not hardcore RPGers. Fallout is a revolutionary game for continuing the trend that Warren Spector began to explore with Serpent Isle back in 1993, of combining C&C, dialogue-heavy adventure and RPG elements, but as a pure RPG, the game is incredibly overrated.
 

Tigranes

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In that case, what is "RPG" if you take out Fallout, Torment, etc, and why should I care about this "RPG"?
 

Jaesun

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But Pen and Paper sessions have Adventure Game Mechanics, so I'm not actually playing a RPG?
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
In that case, what is "RPG" if you take out Fallout, Torment, etc, and why should I care about this "RPG"?

Maybe you shouldn't. Purism isn't for everybody. I'm no mondblutian and I certainly don't spend my days playing dungeon crawlers. But when I play Torment I don't tell myself I'm playing one of the "real RPGs". To me that's an arrogantly ahistorical statement.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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I agree that the types of games Troika made simply don't have that much mass-market appeal (Arcanum sold about as much as Falllout 2 afaik). Still, pretending that the release-state of their games didn't have a major impact on their success over the years is divorcing oneself from reality.
KOTOR was shipped with game stopping bugs. The game crashed frequently on ATI cards and while loading interiors. The only way to play it during the first 2 weeks was by disabling sound. This is as bad as it gets, yet the game went on to sell a million plus copies. Diablo 2 and 3 had numerous bugs, launch, and balance problems. NWN was a bugfest. Oblivion had numerous issues, including the white screen. Etc, etc, etc.

So, while it's unfortunate that games are often shipped with bugs and issues, clearly it doesn't prevent the action games from selling well.

Bloodlines actually had the potential to be a major hit, if it shipped in a more polished state, with improved performance, and not in the shadow of HL2.
So, what is it? More polished state? What exactly? Or not in the shadow of HL2? And while it did, it's a perfect case to show that action games draw a much larger audience. Why would someone who likes RPGs buy HL2 first? I bought Bloodlines on release and I bought HL2 2 years later. Action always sell more.

HL2 too had a number of issues. If I recall correctly it couldn't start on some machines without config tweaking or a patch and had a stuttering bug.
 

Black_Willow

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But Bloodlines is an action game with stats and it didn't sell well. Are you saying that stats made it so inaccessible?
 

Modron

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Fallout is an adventure game/RPG hybrid ("OH I NEED TO USE A ROPE TO ENTER VAULT 15 SO DEEP") that makes late 90's newfag gamers think they're "elite" hardcore RPGers because of its incongruent single character turn-based combat (shooting mutants in the eyes, YEEEEHAW) which totally misses the point of TB combat, and because they have enough of an attention span to reroll their character and restart the game after learning that Outdoorsman and Gambling are useless, and to survive the game's godawful clunky interface.

Guess what, Fallout fans? You're not hardcore RPGers. Fallout is a revolutionary game for continuing the trend that Warren Spector began to explore with Serpent Isle back in 1993, of combining C&C, dialogue-heavy adventure and RPG elements, but as a pure RPG, the game is incredibly overrated.

While I agree that Fallout's combat was not particularly deep especially when compared to earlier game series like Gold Box games, RoA series, and so on. Sure fallout built upon rpgs of yesteryear, borrowing heavily from Wasteland in particular, but what was delivered surely was not highly overrated.

I mean the game established many trends that hurled the RPG genre ahead as a whole. The insertion of Skill/Stat checks into dialog, world reactivity to your actions, a reputation system, and a ton of player choice. Granted, viewed as a whole Fallout 1 could be kind of an anemic experience as many of the locations were kind of empty and sometimes your motivation for doing things in game was purely for the experience points.

Even with its flaws, fallout garnered widespread critical acclaim in an era where scores were not bought by advertisements and blowjobs. You guys are right that this positive critical reception did not translate to as many sales as later games but you have to wonder how much the pc user base was growing over 1996-1999 (we all remember those tards getting their first dell pcs and aol internet). That said you really have to wonder what fallout's total sales were considering I could still find the game actively being sold in stores up to ten years after it releases and given modern digital sales and re-release bundles by that pale shadow of a company which refuses to die.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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Vault Dweller Fallout is an adventure game/RPG hybrid ("OH I NEED TO USE A ROPE TO ENTER VAULT 15 SO DEEP") that makes late 90's newfag gamers think they're "elite" hardcore RPGers because of its incongruent single character turn-based combat (shooting mutants in the eyes, YEEEEHAW) which totally misses the point of TB combat, and because they have enough of an attention span to reroll their character and restart the game after learning that Outdoorsman and Gambling are useless, and to survive the game's godawful clunky interface.

Guess what, Fallout fans? You're not hardcore RPGers. Fallout is a revolutionary game for continuing the trend that Warren Spector began to explore with Serpent Isle back in 1993, of combining C&C, dialogue-heavy adventure and RPG elements, but as a pure RPG, the game is incredibly overrated.
Um... why did you tag me for this rant? Are you under the impression that I'm a late 90s newfag or that I think that I'm hardcore because I like Fallout and keep it on my top 10 list?
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I mean the game established many trends that hurled the RPG genre ahead as a whole. The insertion of Skill/Stat checks into dialog, world reactivity to your actions, a reputation system, and a ton of player choice. Granted, viewed as a whole Fallout 1 could be kind of an anemic experience as many of the locations were kind of empty and sometimes your motivation for doing things in game was purely for the experience points.

These things are nice, but I consider them the icing on the cake, something that should be added on top of a more solid foundation of core RPG mechanics and features. It'll be interesting to see how the Kickstarter RPGs fare here.

Even with its flaws, fallout garnered widespread critical acclaim in an era where scores were not bought by advertisements and blowjobs. You guys are right that this positive critical reception did not translate to as many sales as later games but you have to wonder how much the pc user base was growing over 1996-1999 (we all remember those tards getting their first dell pcs and aol internet). That said you really have to wonder what fallout's total sales were considering I could still find the game actively being sold in stores up to ten years after it releases and given modern digital sales and re-release bundles by that pale shadow of a company which refuses to die.

Fallout was considered to have sold quite well when it was released. It's just that Baldur's Gate dwarfed it a year later.

Um... why did you tag me for this rant? Are you under the impression that I'm a late 90s newfag or that I think that I'm hardcore because I like Fallout and keep it on my top 10 list?

Well, it is your model for "real RPGs", isn't it?
 

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