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Do elitist gamers have fun?

Avu

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Messages
351
Vibalist said:
MetalCraze said:
Well you don't watch Paris Hilton comedies that supposed to be fun and relaxing, do you?

Mass Effect is an example I love to use. Compared to some shit out there it's a mighty fine game. Is it on the level of Planescape? No, but I'll be damned if I can't get some good fun out of it nonetheless. Why shouldn't I? C&C, good writing and consistent setting, which it lacks, are not absolutely necessary for a game to be good, and thus I put my need for those things aside when playing that particular game, and enjoy the fun gameplay, the atmosphere and extreme renegade options instead. It's a nice alternative to getting pissed at every game which doesn't have every last feature I look for, which is what I think some elitist gamers do, and which ruins the fun you could have if you just chilled out a bit.

You like the gameplay? What gameplay is that? Utterly boring and effortless shooting? (of robots mainly...) Great fun! Atmosphere? Generic space opera space ships crappy planets robots ja great. And extreme renegade options hmm don't you get that on the codex already? you need a game to be extreme and renegade?

What about the RPG part, you know the shit we pretend we talk about here. No stats, handful of skills that just make the game a tolerable shooter, pathetic item selection. Lame story, bad dialogue color coded for ehm retards... The game IS atrocious. I've tried finishing it several times and I can never stand it more than half an hour or so and I'm a masochist about finishing games.

All in all it's people like you that hurts gaming. Unless we demand good games all we're going to get is Mass Effect and Fallout 3. Personally I enjoy my RPG's RPG and my shooters shooter...
 
Joined
Nov 1, 2008
Messages
7,953
Location
Cuntington Manor
The Demographics have changed, both for gamers and gaming journalists. In order to reach more sales, the goalposts have been shifted, and efforts have been made to make gaming more "accessible" to those who were previously not interested. RPG's have been swept up in this maelstrom in the quest for money.

The first movement was in graphics; this is the first thing that sucks in people who are not interested in gaming. No RPG elitist I have ever known requires graphics to be up to industry standard, and indeed expects them to be one or two notches below (more if necessary) to accomodate the extra elements needed in an RPG.

As a consequence, at first of the graphical improvements, gameplay elements need to be taken away as time and money are finite resources. Suddenly developers see new gamers coming in, happy with the simpler gameplay (read: gamers that previously hated RPG's due to graphics, difficulty, etc) and better graphics.

Continue this trend, adding in better selling genre points thrown into the RPG mix, further simplification to grab an ever larger audience, etc and you finally get to the present.

It actually worked in reverse initially; Simple games did not grab gamers when computers first emerged from the University/business mainframes to the home. We were all quickly bored by the simple rubbish on offer. Wargaming, and then Role playing games changed this for me, and if we look at the greatest selling genre of the mid to late 80's and early 90's, we see that the RPG is King.

Developers had to ADD complexity, and extra gameplay in order to grab the dominant tech head market that existed then (most new gamers wouldn't be able to operate the computers that existed back then. Nerds and technophiles ruled supreme). If a game was too simple, it might get the "good for beginners" tagline, but not taken seriously. Complexity was IN. We wanted more, so long as it had a half decent UI.

Imagine that! In order to dominate the market back then, you had to be an RPG developer, you had to add intelligent additions to the gameplay, and the graphics could creep along at their own pace.

Look at 1987, these examples all show a different way of roleplaying. The graphics is the key though. All of these examples sold quite well, and were sitting happily next to each other on the shelves, snapped up by RPG gamers of the day, with graphics, while "cool", were not the main consideration;

http://www.mobygames.com/game/dungeon-master
http://www.mobygames.com/game/phantasie ... -nikademus
http://www.mobygames.com/game/rings-of-zilfin
http://www.mobygames.com/game/ultima-iv ... the-avatar
http://www.mobygames.com/game/might-and-magic-book-i

Look at the difference. And the press of the day was not debunking the graphics of any one game. And gamers were not shunning games like Ultima 4 and refusing to buy it.

Today, nothing of the sort could be considered in such a graphical difference. Today's gamers and gaming press would not even consider such a disparity between two games. Apart from the unserved holdovers like myself anyway.

This whining game "journalist" obviously knows nothing of gaming history, nor why "elitists" are not impressed by todays "rpg's"; They have nothing new from what came before apart from graphical upgrades and gameplay downgrades. They play more like shooters than RPG's ever did (unless all you care about is the talkytalky, larping part of RPG's, of which better iterations have come before anyway), they are all the same, and none of them try to include more "under the hood". They include less, to capture the new gamer who would have much preferred a movie to playing a game back in the day.

I am not interested in playing a movie. I am not interested in playing new games where the only improvement is graphical, with substantial downgrades in everything else, and where I feel progressively bored with each minute playing it. Today's games are also that easy they provide me with no sense of having achieved anything.

If you like to watch a B grade story unfold with a few additions and easy fights contributed by yourself, then by all means have fun with the new RPG games on the market. Today is your day. There is nothing evil about liking it.

For an "elitist" like myself, who enjoys diversity in RPG's, complexity, or at least something novel and challenging, all at the expense of graphics if necessary, todays RPG's hold nothing, and I will not part with hard earned money, and waste minutes of my life in playing them. They bore me.

Vibalist, if you enjoy the new RPG's, there is no sense in not buying them. Equally there is no sense in me buying them as I hate them. Simple.
 

MLMarkland

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Dec 12, 2006
Messages
1,663
Location
Malibu, CA
Vibalist said:
MLMarkland said:
People can have high standards for movies and still enjoy great movies, games aren't any different. There's no need to lower standards for content. It's hard to have fun with bad games and the vast majority of major releases in the past two years have been atrocious.

Atrocious? The word atrocious is something which I associate with unplayable shite, and while many mainstrean games are mediocre, I don't think many major releases have been downright atrocious. Give me 5 minutes and I could easily name 20 games of the last couple years that I've found fun.

Atrocious is probably a bit strong a word, but the grouping "vast majority of major releases" leaves plenty of room for 20 decent games.
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
6,207
Location
The island of misfit mascots
Yes, but our fun is of a much higher quality than yours, and so it is very difficult for you to observe or comprehend. See - these words that I'm typing? To you they just look like simple communication, but other elite gamers can read those and see straight away that I am concurrently playing minesweeper while typing, and having fun playing it.

Re: the Aristotle quote. Journalists really shouldn't cherry-pick ideas that they don't understand. He's pulling courage and cowardice out of his ass and assuming that they are 'innate' virtues. Aristotle would be the first to admit that his list of virtues aren't applicable today - in his time, morality had far more practical connations than today - virtues were simply whatever would contribute to the functioning of a healthy society. Which is why in earlier times than Aristotle, physical strength was seen as a genuine moral virtue (Aristotle thought that was outdated, as by his time manual the Athenian's manual labour could be done by slaves). Any decent virtue theorist today (i.e. MacIntyre, Anscombe - personally, I don't think virtue theory can do anything that Kantian theories can't, but those two are certainly no fools) takes Aristotle's practicality and applies it to modern conceptions of a healthy society. The proper application would be to say 'are these values contributing, or detracting, from gaming, gaming culture and the health of the games industry?' And the virtues that this journalist cherry-plucks from Aristotle certainly aren't - they've lead to a dumbed-down industry, where most companies fail in the pursuit of ever-more-expensive tech, where invention and challenge are discouraged, where gaming is shifting from something that intellectually challenges the gamer to a brain-dead medium like TV, and where the variety of game-styles produced is ever-narrowing down into the lowest common denominator. Exactly the kind of shit that Aristotle would have hated. If we're actually going to apply Aristotlean virtue theory to the gaming industry/community, then the resulting virtues should actually be something like:
- nerdrage - to discourage bad games;
- intellectual snobbishness - to discourage over-simplification of games;
- honour - I was going to say 'loyalty', but that could slip into 'fanboyism' (one problem with Aristotlean virtue theory is that it doesn't recognise that many 'virtues' can become vices if taken too far). Instead I'm listing honour as a kind of loyalty-mediated-by-standards, to reward companies who make good games (by buying their future games, and allowing them leeway for failed but creative efforts), without slipping into blind purchasing.
- skepticism - to weed out poor games journalism and reward quality over marketing

and so forth:)
 

Kos_Koa

Iron Tower Studio
Developer
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
315
I think many people forget the most developers make games for people that don't play games. So how can I feel enchanted by their games when they, in every aspect of development, have no intention of developing a game for me.

It's like that Seinfeld episode when Kramer and George's Dad decided to make bras for men, since men are 50% of the market and relatively untapped. It's like game developers are trying to sell me a bra, and now a game journalist who likes to wear bras is mad at me for not wearing one. :declineofanalogy:
 

Jaime Lannister

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
7,183
god forbid anyone points out the flaws in a game after playing it

i had fun with mass effect but i'm not about to call it a great game, 10/10
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
Precisely because it's MY hobby I'm NOT gonna lower my expectations and standards.

I might play a bad game for various reasons, but to actually make pretend that I like it? That's pathetic.
 

Mackerel

Augur
Joined
May 17, 2009
Messages
700
Blackadder said:
It actually worked in reverse initially; Simple games did not grab gamers when computers first emerged from the University/business mainframes to the home. We were all quickly bored by the simple rubbish on offer. Wargaming, and then Role playing games changed this for me, and if we look at the greatest selling genre of the mid to late 80's and early 90's, we see that the RPG is King.

Developers had to ADD complexity, and extra gameplay in order to grab the dominant tech head market that existed then (most new gamers wouldn't be able to operate the computers that existed back then. Nerds and technophiles ruled supreme). If a game was too simple, it might get the "good for beginners" tagline, but not taken seriously. Complexity was IN. We wanted more, so long as it had a half decent UI.
This reminds me of part of Chris Crawford's Dragon Speech where he talks about "Games Literacy".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7N_Ju1L_Mg#t=6m0s
the relevant point spills over into the next part:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqMwmdvf8v0&

It really shows the difference in the mindset of the industry back then.
 

Hoodoo

It gets passed around.
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
6,700
the journalist comes across as some kind of elitist himself, quotes aristotle in a article about elitists and how gaming should just be laid-back entertainment.

eh, if your gonna become a games journalist and then make a article like this about how much elitists make you sad then your more of a loser than the worst elitist

games journalism so fuck up
 

Burning Bridges

Enviado de meu SM-G3502T usando Tapatalk
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Apr 21, 2006
Messages
27,562
Location
Tampon Bay
As a gamer, the fanboys piss me off, but as a journalist, the elitists irritate me even more.

so what?

They've owned every console ever made. They're the only ones on the planet who beat E.T. on the Atari 2600 (and they're actually proud of this).

LOL

They were probably the first to spread the rumor that all game critics are paid off, and certainly the first to accept that lie as truth.

who is this guy working for? His rhetorics are befitting to the chinese propaganda ministry.

The elitists have zero social graces - and certainly no social status to speak of - and because of this, they attempt to make their mark in video game forums. They want to be the all-knowing gurus. They despise the really popular games because the "masses" like them...so they obviously can't be any good.

.. and accept that lie as truth? it never occurs to this idiot that some people want really good games, and that being really popular doesn't automatically mean really good. his whole argument is hollow since he doesnt adress that.

the headline sounded interesting, but this whole article is shit. not worth readin at all.
 

Kz3r0

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
27,017
I'm so elitist that I don't give a shit about what media whores write, just to let you know, now I'm going to have some elitarian fun, so long.
 

Black

Arcane
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
1,872,659
Elitist gamers today play Jagged Alliance 1.13 while casuals play Gears of War and Fallout 3, soon they'll play Dragon Age.
I prefer elitists, thank you very much. At least they have some good quality stuff. Old, but good.
 

skyway

Educated
Joined
May 29, 2009
Messages
258
Degenerate fuck calls himself a journalist. James Nachtwey is a journalist.


Until the discussion is elevated, the discussion is useless.

Why bother? Resignation took over long ago.
And here is why:

The cultural window has slapped shut on the path for games to be anything but a distraction shit mill. Leave the field to these guys.

Plus, Money. The decline is gaming is caused by the same forces that caused Spiderman and Batman.
 

Burning Bridges

Enviado de meu SM-G3502T usando Tapatalk
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@skyway impostor: The problem is that the decline is not absolute. In the 4 years since 2005 I found about half a dozen new games which were really great (plus maybe a dozen old ones). So I could neither give up gaming for good (which I wanted at some points) nor really play a lot. (Play a lot as I was in the era between C64 and "early" PC, until ca. 1999.)
 

xantrius

Liturgist
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
228
Location
Ascending (Denmark)
Azrael the cat said:
personally, I don't think virtue theory can do anything that Kantian theories can't

Huh? Do you troll a lot?

Kantian answer: no trolling is wrong, it is unproductive vulgar fun not befit of the Azrael the cat with the noble heart-mind; trolling is still fun though, and thus have a certain alluring charm to it, so what should a person do? Bottom-line is that there always are a conflict present in any moral decision-making, between one’s desires and one’s moral-law, no?

Aristotelian answer: I do not troll because I’m not a troll. No conflict present. How one carries oneself have become a habit through practice, so there is no conflict, one just acts, and uses almost no mental energy regarding whether one should do one thing or the other; it’s like when you first have learned to tie your shoes you just tie them, you don’t ponder nor struggle while tying them, the same way with driving a car.

- honour - I was going to say 'loyalty', but that could slip into 'fanboyism' (one problem with Aristotlean virtue theory is that it doesn't recognise that many 'virtues' can become vices if taken too far).

No, it does recognise that, else it’s raping the spirit of Aristotle. If you take your virtue of “nerdrage” then that is the mean, and the two vices are, say, “indifference” and “blind nerdrage” (in ‘blind nerdrage’ one has taken the virtue of nerdrage and carried it into the land of excessiveness). Both of the vices are irrational, infantile and unproductive, whereas the virtue of ‘nerdrage’--the mean--is noble; why is it noble? Because the ‘nerdrage’ is tailored and honed to be uttered at the right time, to the right degree, in the right way, aimed at the right target. Is this an easy task, to hit the mean, the virtue of ‘nerdrage’, are any nerd capable of hitting the mark spot on? No - therefore it is praiseworthy and a noble task to practice the virtue of ‘nerdrage’ and get it right.
 

skyway

Educated
Joined
May 29, 2009
Messages
258
GlobalExplorer said:
@skyway impostor: The problem is that the decline is not absolute. In the 4 years since 2005 I found about half a dozen new games which were really great (plus maybe a dozen old ones). So I could neither give up gaming for good (which I wanted at some points) nor really play a lot. (Play a lot as I was in the era between C64 and "early" PC, until ca. 1999.)

Its not a problem. Its a blessing.
I also meant more the mainstream gaming. What Blackadder said.
 

Dele

Liturgist
Joined
May 22, 2009
Messages
268
Location
Finland
Vibalist said:
Now, this is not meant as a trolling attempt on my part, but it's rather something I've thought about for a while. I reckon the following article raises some pretty good points on the issue of elitist gamers.

http://www.psxextreme.com/feature/327.html

The journalist does come across as a bit arrogant, but I can't really disagree with his main point. Is gaming really and truly worth getting worked up over? Bitching and moaning all day long about how Fallout 3 was not a true successor to Fallout 1 and 2 does seem to be more trouble than it's worth. For something that is meant to be a pastime and relaxing hobby, don't you pretty much kill whatever enjoyment you can deride from gaming by always being mad at it? I myself used to have all sorts of ideas and rules for what a good game is, to the point where I simply refused to play Mass Effect and Fallout 3 out of principle, despite not really knowing those games or giving them a fair chance. All that really changed when I put my expectations aside and took those games for what they are, namely fairly entertaining romps that certainly have a lot of good (mindless ;) ) fun to offer, even if the writing isn't good or the setting isn't consistant.

Maybe some people here could do with lowering their expectations a bit. If you find Mass Effect an unplayable mess and a bore, and simply cannot get into the story or the combat system despite trying your best, then by all means bash it and tell the world what you feel is wrong with it. But if your own pre-conceived ideas of what a good game is gets in the way of you having fun, why not put that shit aside and get some enjoyment out of your hobby instead?

Gaming as a relaxing hobby :?:
Gaming is a way of life, thus everything concering games i take utterly seriously.

I'm a 'hardcore' gamer, and i think many other elitist gamers are too, to them games are more important than they are to those casuals.

Casual gamers are content with not-so-good or even shitty content, for those who value games more it is not so.
 

Deleted member 7219

Guest
Mass Effect is a better RPG than Jagged Alliance.

Jagged Alliance is a better strategy than Mass Effect.
 

Burning Bridges

Enviado de meu SM-G3502T usando Tapatalk
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Tampon Bay
Matt7895 said:
Mass Effect is a better RPG than Jagged Alliance.

Jagged Alliance is a better strategy than Mass Effect.

And this contributes to the topic how?
 

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